XMPP Council - 2011-05-18

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14:47:57 Fritzy Kev: I have given my feedback and reasons for vetoing Sensors over XMPP
14:49:15 Kev Evening.
14:49:16 Kev Thanks.
14:51:55 stpeter thanks, Fritzy!
14:52:12 Fritzy *nod* -- sorry it's so late.
14:56:11 linuxwolf has joined
14:57:43 linuxwolf /sigh … one of my network drops is dead
14:57:55 linuxwolf that's going to make today interesting
14:58:00 stpeter heh
14:58:17 linuxwolf if only I worked for a company that knew something about networking...
14:58:44 stpeter :)
14:58:59 linuxwolf on the plus side, I have no phone, since it's the one plugged into the dead drop (-:
15:00:40 Fritzy You find good in bad. I like!
15:01:05 stpeter every silver lining has a cloud!
15:01:21 ralphm has joined
15:01:36 linuxwolf and a nice movie reference, fritzy!
15:01:43 ralphm hi
15:01:59 linuxwolf adds Fifth Element to the queue
15:02:05 Kev Right.
15:02:11 Kev Dingding etc.
15:02:19 stpeter wonders if http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xmpp-council/tenth-council/ is up to date
15:02:21 linuxwolf !agendaup
15:02:40 Kev 1) Roll Call
15:02:46 Kev MattJ has been poked.
15:02:58 Fritzy here
15:03:04 linuxwolf presente
15:03:32 Dave Cridland has joined
15:03:59 Kev Ralph here?
15:04:03 stpeter yes
15:04:13 Kev Oh, sorry, didn't recognise the new nick.
15:04:16 Kev stpeter: Hi Ralph.
15:04:24 stpeter :)
15:04:25 Kev 2) Agenda bashing.
15:04:36 Fritzy None
15:04:41 linuxwolf nay
15:04:55 ralphm new nick?
15:05:10 Kev ralphm: stpeter replied on your behalf.
15:05:44 Kev 3) XEP-0220 (Server Dialback), advance to Draft?
15:06:15 Fritzy +1
15:06:25 ralphm ☑
15:06:41 stpeter ooh nice
15:06:44 linuxwolf there's still some discussion on how to advertise db+errors, correct?
15:06:52 stpeter linuxwolf: yes
15:07:03 Kev I'd rather hold off on Drafting this until there's at least some agreement amongst the authors :)
15:07:11 Fritzy ah, ok
15:07:16 linuxwolf Kev: I don't think that will happen
15:07:19 MattJ has joined
15:07:21 Kev The namespace versioning issue needs resolution, too.
15:07:34 MattJ enters quietly
15:07:39 stpeter Kev: I think that's the same issue, no?
15:08:05 Kev stpeter: Is it? I thought he was complaining about a bug in Example 7.
15:08:12 Kev Ah.
15:08:19 Kev Which is, indeed, error handling.
15:08:37 Fritzy sounds like I should retract my vote.
15:08:49 Fritzy If things are still up in the air
15:09:04 linuxwolf s/to=sender.tld/to=target.tld/
15:09:05 MattJ I think they are
15:10:02 Kev stpeter: Do you have comment on this?
15:10:25 Dave Cridland FWIW, i think the existing errors feature advertising has been about long enough that even if the implementations *could* be changed, I suspect there'll be confusion if it were changed in the spec.
15:10:59 MattJ Prosody doesn't implement it, I'm not sure ejabberd does - M-Link and PSYC? :)
15:11:05 ralphm I'm not sure why this would impede advancement, as this was already in the spec and people apparently have implemented and it is seems backwards compatible
15:11:14 linuxwolf also, technically, XEP-0220 is experimental
15:11:18 Dave Cridland MattJ, I thought someone else mentioned doing so, as well.
15:11:45 Dave Cridland linuxwolf, That's not an argument *for* changing it.
15:12:00 Kev ralphm: No-one has implemented the spec as it stands, because it's just had the namespace changed.
15:12:06 stpeter do we agree that this is a poor design? <stream:features> <dialback xmlns='urn:xmpp:features:dialback'> <errors/> </dialback> </stream:features>
15:12:06 linuxwolf heh
15:12:11 Kev That is - all existing implementations are incompatible with the current revision.
15:12:13 linuxwolf I think it is
15:12:13 MattJ stpeter, I think so, yes
15:12:22 linuxwolf (a bad design)
15:12:33 Kev stpeter: Poor design? Yes. What's already in the wild? Probably.
15:12:34 ralphm Kev: oh, right
15:12:37 stpeter because if we keep that, then we need to add a note to the spec saying "this is a bad design, if you design your own stream features in the future then don't do it this way"
15:12:37 linuxwolf dwd: a bad design is a good reason to change it
15:12:55 Dave Cridland linuxwolf, Cool. Can we change self-framing XML, too, then?
15:13:06 Fritzy haha
15:13:11 ralphm gets popcorn
15:13:14 linuxwolf is self-framing XML an experimental XEP?
15:13:16 stpeter and we need to say "if we add new dialback-related features in the future, then they MUST NOT be added as new child elements like <errors/>"
15:13:26 Kev stpeter: That is one of the two options, yes.
15:13:29 Dave Cridland linuxwolf, Proposed Standard, so technically still subject to change.
15:13:52 stpeter how many beers do I need to buy for the M-Links developers to change their minds?
15:14:08 stpeter s/Links/Link/
15:14:09 Dave Cridland (I'm not even sure it is bad design - at best it's inconsistent with Disco)
15:14:26 Kev stpeter: I'm not firmly in one camp or the other. I'd just like to see something approaching agreement.
15:14:47 Kev (Well, I'm firmly in the 'we should not go with the current XEP approach' camp, but not firmly in either of the other two)
15:14:47 linuxwolf I think it's a bad design…and would require the spec to be updated (and the namespace to be changed) if we added more later
15:15:01 Kev linuxwolf: No, that's not true.
15:15:07 linuxwolf it's a schema change
15:15:11 Dave Cridland linuxwolf, I don't see how you arrive at that conclusion.
15:15:15 stpeter I note that http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0288.html has: <stream:features> <starttls xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-tls'/> <bidi xmlns='urn:xmpp:features:bidi'/> </stream:features>
15:15:29 stpeter not: <stream:features> <dialback xmlns='urn:xmpp:features:dialback'> <bidi/> </dialback> </stream:features>
15:15:32 Kev linuxwolf: Adding more *the wrong way* later would lead to a schema change.
15:15:37 stpeter although bidi is not strictly a dialback thing
15:15:39 linuxwolf Kev: that's what I'm saying
15:15:40 Kev I'm assuming if we add more features in the future, we'll do it right.
15:15:45 linuxwolf So #1 is out
15:15:49 Kev No.
15:16:06 Kev We've done it the wrong way once, they question is whether to live with it or not.
15:16:31 Kev There's no cause and effect between letting the (previous version) current way stand and having to do it wrong again in the future.
15:16:35 linuxwolf ok, then my vote is to not live with it
15:16:47 Dave Cridland I'd be fine with <errors/> being the last thing added to dialback's stream feature.
15:16:51 linuxwolf but, IMO, we have time to change this
15:17:00 MattJ So is mine, but only if we can track down existing implementations (I'm not sure there are many in reality)
15:17:22 linuxwolf I'm −1 on keeping it, unless there's a plethora of implementation that will break
15:17:53 Kev My preference is that we should only break namespaces when there's an incompatible change being made, really.
15:17:57 linuxwolf then I'll re-evaluate (-:
15:17:58 ralphm we /could/ define a real stream feature and deprecate <errors/> but I'm unsure about the actual impact
15:18:07 Dave Cridland ralphm, Same issue.
15:18:14 ralphm of course
15:18:37 MattJ Dave Cridland, are you saying you're absolutely against switching to a <dialback-errors> feature?
15:18:38 stpeter it's not a hill for me to die on, but it's ugly and the wrong way to do it and sets a bad precedent -- people look at the XEPs for examples of what to do in their own extensions and someone will say "oh they did it in XEP-0220 so it's fine in this extension" (and realize that people might never even look at the spec, they'll just see the XML go across the wire)
15:18:38 linuxwolf we're still advertising support of dialback (sans error-handling) via a namespace declaration, no?
15:19:04 Kev I am, in any case, -1 on advancing 220 as it currently stands, so this discussion can take place on list :)
15:19:05 stpeter linuxwolf: no
15:19:12 MattJ stpeter, I agree it seems bad to have backwards-compatibility cruft in such a "recent" feature
15:19:24 stpeter linuxwolf: advertisment is just via namespace on the stream header
15:19:29 Kev (Which, given that we've not changed 0001 yet means that -0220 has just died. Yay!).
15:19:38 ralphm so discussion ensues and we -1 it for now
15:19:49 ralphm Kev: hehehe
15:19:52 Kev 4) XEP-0262 (Use of ZRTP in Jingle RTP Sessions), advance to Draft?
15:19:58 ralphm ☒
15:19:58 Dave Cridland MattJ, I am generally against changing deployed specs incompatibly for aesthetic reasons, yes.
15:20:04 stpeter I suppose we could say that <dialback xmlns='urn:xmpp:features:dialback'/> means you support dialback with errors and get rid of the child element
15:20:19 stpeter I'd be fine with that
15:20:21 linuxwolf stpeter: I would be ok with that
15:20:25 ralphm stpeter: and if you don't actually do it it doesn't break stuff
15:20:35 stpeter ralphm: right
15:20:37 ralphm and the <errors/> is merely informational no-op
15:20:41 Dave Cridland stpeter, I've a nagging feeling that there exist implementation advertising dialback like that but without supporting errors.
15:20:42 MattJ Is it?
15:20:46 ralphm that'd work for me
15:20:58 Kev Folks, this discussion doesn't need to happen now.
15:21:03 ralphm right
15:21:06 Kev Can we move onto (4) please.
15:21:08 stpeter Dave Cridland: I don't know of any implementations that do it that way
15:21:20 linuxwolf ok, let's focus!
15:21:22 linuxwolf #4
15:21:22 stpeter Kev: trying to use the high bandwidth connection to reach consensus :)
15:21:27 stpeter bt I'll propose it on the list
15:21:42 Kev Discuss in 10mins once Council's over and I can start ignoring the chat :)
15:21:47 Kev 4) XEP-0262 (Use of ZRTP in Jingle RTP Sessions), advance to Draft?
15:22:10 Kev I haven't looked up the feedback thread yet. Will vote on-list.
15:22:40 linuxwolf was there feedback? I don't remember seeing any
15:22:48 MattJ There wasn't feedback iirc
15:22:54 Kev I don't remember any, but I need to find the thread to be sure :)
15:23:15 stpeter heh
15:23:16 MattJ No feedback and I'm not aware of any implementations
15:23:24 stpeter it is implemented in Jitsi
15:23:28 MattJ Ah good
15:23:31 Kev One reply, from Peter, saying that the date was wrong.
15:23:32 stpeter for voice and video
15:23:45 linuxwolf stpeter: can you ping them to send an "a ok" or something about it, then?
15:23:47 stpeter I've seen it displayed at FOSDEM so it must be true
15:23:58 Fritzy well, that's something!
15:24:05 Fritzy Should we ask them for feedback specifically?
15:24:20 Kev If there are known implementations, and no feedback to the LC, I think it's worth poking, yes.
15:24:27 MattJ +1
15:24:28 linuxwolf definitely
15:24:30 Dave Cridland Is Jitsi SIP Communicator as-was?
15:24:31 stpeter Kev: pokage in progress
15:24:32 ralphm +1
15:24:32 MattJ (to poking)
15:24:35 MattJ Dave Cridland, yes
15:24:35 Kev Dave Cridland: Yes.
15:24:40 linuxwolf +1 to POKE, DNV for now
15:24:43 Dave Cridland Anyone else want to say yes?
15:24:48 MattJ Dave Cridland, no
15:24:48 Kev Dave Cridland: No.
15:25:06 Kev Ok, so who's volunteering to poke them for feedback?
15:25:12 MattJ I just have
15:25:15 Kev Ta.
15:25:17 linuxwolf thanks
15:25:20 Kev 5) Date of next.
15:25:46 MattJ Next week is ok for me as far as I am aware
15:25:50 Kev Jolly good.
15:25:52 Fritzy same here
15:25:53 linuxwolf works for me
15:26:03 Kev ralphm?
15:26:14 stpeter any further votes on 178?
15:26:30 ralphm +1
15:26:31 Kev I think the voting period's expired for that hasn't it? :)
15:26:42 Fritzy very much so
15:26:43 Kev 6) AOB.
15:26:56 linuxwolf +1 on −178
15:27:06 linuxwolf thought I did that on-list
15:27:26 ralphm any news on the summit?
15:27:36 Kev ralphm: I think I saw a mail fly by saying it was cancelled.
15:27:38 stpeter linuxwolf: I missed that
15:27:39 linuxwolf but I'm getting ~200 emails/day, so it's getting lost (-:
15:27:45 Kev Although I don't think I was paying much attention at the time.
15:27:45 stpeter linuxwolf: man up :P
15:28:11 stpeter right, we haven't organized the summer summit so we'll see you all in Brussels again someday
15:28:15 MattJ Yay
15:28:44 stpeter so meeting next Wed?
15:28:47 Kev Yep.
15:28:52 stpeter adding to calendar
15:28:53 Kev And we're done with 3mins to spare.
15:28:58 Kev Thanks Peter.
15:29:01 Kev Thanks all.
15:29:02 linuxwolf and now to the flame war
15:29:04 Kev bangs teh gavel.
15:29:09 MattJ Heh
15:29:10 stpeter BTW if folks want to look at my i18n stuff it'd be cool
15:29:16 MattJ stpeter, where is that?
15:29:22 stpeter xmpp@ietf.org
15:29:26 ralphm the precis draft
15:29:33 stpeter or http://xmpp.org/2011/05/progress-on-internationalization/
15:29:40 MattJ Ah yes, thanks
15:29:41 linuxwolf stpeter: on my /todo
15:29:45 MattJ On mine too
15:29:59 linuxwolf plans on reading it while at Casa Bonita
15:30:01 stpeter thank
15:30:09 stpeter thanks even
15:30:14 Fritzy ciao
15:30:17 Fritzy has left
15:30:17 stpeter we can see that Ralph likes Unicode ;-)
15:30:41 stpeter Unicode Rocks™ and all that
15:30:45 linuxwolf Ralphm: what happened to "if you don't like ASCII…f**k you"? (-:
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15:30:51 stpeter heh
15:31:05 ralphm linuxwolf: did I ever say that?
15:31:30 ralphm linuxwolf: also, I don't see how that's conflicting with liking unicode
15:31:52 stpeter ralphm is a man of contradictions :)
15:32:17 linuxwolf haha
15:32:17 stpeter updates http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xmpp-council/tenth-council/ with linuxwolf's vote
15:32:29 ralphm stpeter: pft! Al
15:32:32 linuxwolf ralphm: well, I said the first part…and beers were involved (-:
15:32:49 ralphm linuxwolf: agreed
15:32:54 MattJ stpeter, hmm, my vote isn't there... I'm +1
15:33:12 stpeter ok
15:33:13 MattJ But I'm working more on Prosody's implementation soon so I may have some feedback
15:33:18 ralphm as ASCII is a strict subset of unicode, I don't see how this is a contradication
15:33:29 stpeter not sure if Fritzy voted
15:33:30 MattJ ralphm, you win :)
15:33:36 linuxwolf ASCII is a strict subset of UTF8, actually
15:33:38 linuxwolf (-:
15:33:38 stpeter I think I missed a meeting while travelling of late
15:33:53 ralphm linuxwolf: hehe
15:34:04 linuxwolf and UTF8 is a particular encoding of Unicode, afterall (-:
15:34:05 ralphm nevertheless a thing to like
15:34:13 linuxwolf I've got a slidedeck I can show you about it (-:
15:34:45 linuxwolf stpeter: I don't think my vote on 0220 is accurate
15:35:08 linuxwolf given the revote and updates and whatnot
15:35:36 Kev Indeed. I'm currently -1.
15:36:01 stpeter pings Fritzy about 178
15:36:58 stpeter Kev: noted
15:38:21 stpeter heh, now I'm receiving password requests for chat.facebook.com at jabber.org
15:38:52 linuxwolf stpeter: I'm "" on XEP-0220 right now, pending further discussion about advertisement
15:39:03 linuxwolf ugh
15:39:27 linuxwolf and I'm 10 minutes late to a 15-minute meeting (-:
15:39:29 linuxwolf adios
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15:40:06 stpeter linuxwolf: noted
15:40:12 stpeter I changed ralphm to "" as well
15:40:18 stpeter so the only vote is Kev's -1 :)
15:40:31 Kev Which I'll no doubt be changing shortly.
15:40:34 Dave Cridland stpeter, ralphm may well be “”, in fact.
15:40:40 stpeter heh
15:46:42 ralphm ☐
15:48:37 stpeter :)
15:50:57 Dave Cridland ☺
15:51:34 Dave Cridland I tried a bottom bracket with combining umlaut once, and it actually worked. I was particularly happy.
15:54:56 ralphm ̈̈̈̈‿̈
15:55:01 ralphm ooh
15:55:28 Dave Cridland Unicode Art is so much more experssive than the ASCII kind.
15:55:31 ralphm ‿̈
15:55:41 ralphm I had another combining one in there
15:55:45 Dave Cridland There's actually a smile codepoint that might be better.
15:57:22 ralphm ⁀̤
15:58:17 ralphm ̤⁀⃘̤
16:07:54 Dave Cridland ◡̈
16:08:02 Dave Cridland Many options.
16:09:01 ralphm I just tried a combination that kicked out my connection
16:09:15 ralphm with combining musical symbols
16:09:39 ralphm probably because they are in another plane
16:16:16 Dave Cridland Could be anti-codepoints.
16:16:33 Dave Cridland You can't put those in contact with ordinary codepoints, they'll explode.
16:19:03 ralphm I had a cross-note-head with a combining 1/64 stem
16:24:09 Dave Cridland Yeah, you need to have a special screwdriver for those, though.
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