XMPP Council - 2011-07-20

  1. Neustradamus

    Where will be XMPP/Jabber ? http://www.numerama.com/magazine/19348-la-mort-d-internet-se-confirme-un-peu-plus-a-bruxelles.html

  2. MattJ

    Morning all

  3. stpeter


  4. stpeter

    MattJ: still morning for you, I take it? :)

  5. MattJ

    Morning :)

  6. MattJ

    Is there a meeting today? It seemed like there wouldn't be, but now we have discussion items (?) but no agenda posted

  7. stpeter

    ask the boss :)

  8. MattJ

    I have a IRL meeting starting shortly, trying to figure if I need to try and reschedule

  9. stpeter


  10. MattJ

    (if that's possible)

  11. MattJ

    Kev, ?

  12. MattJ

    Ok, I need to dash - my apologies if the meeting does go ahead, I'll read the discussion and post on-list (hopefully today, but today is kind of hectic, so possibly tomorrow)

  13. stpeter

    MattJ: no worries!

  14. Kev

    I'm here.

  15. Kev

    Yes, we have a Council.

  16. Kev

    There wasn't any suggestion on the list that there wouldn't be, AFAICR.

  17. ralphm

    I'm here

  18. linuxwolf

    T - 0:04?

  19. Kev


  20. linuxwolf

    agenda? (I hate surprises, and not sure I followed everything correctly yesterday)

  21. stpeter

    MattJ had to attend an IRL meeting so it seems he won't be here

  22. linuxwolf

    stupid IRL

  23. stpeter

    yeah, who needs it :P

  24. Kev

    http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/keepalive.html http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2011-June/024722.html http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2011-June/024723.html http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2011-June/024625.html

  25. linuxwolf


  26. linuxwolf is getting confuzzled already today

  27. Kev


  28. Kev

    Oh, I have another agenda item, too. Will add to the AOB.

  29. Kev

    1) Roll call.

  30. Kev

    I be here.

  31. Kev

    MattJ sends apologies.

  32. linuxwolf


  33. linuxwolf

    I think

  34. ralphm


  35. Kev

    No sign of Fritzy online.

  36. ralphm

    hmm, linuxwolf reminds me of fixing Gajim's list of styles I wish to accept

  37. Kev

    2) http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/keepalive.html Accept as XEP

  38. linuxwolf

    looks like we reached quorum.../whew

  39. Kev

    I'm not sure exactly what situations you'd need this in, but that doesn't seem like a reason to block Experimentalness.

  40. linuxwolf

    no objections from me

  41. stpeter


  42. ralphm

    funny how we need a protocol to send whitespace around, but sure

  43. linuxwolf

    Kev: trying to explain on list, there are networks where this kind of negotiation is helpful

  44. stpeter

    I admit that I haven't read all the messages on the list

  45. linuxwolf

    ralphm: it's those stupid mobiles and things (-:

  46. Kev

    linuxwolf: Right - *some* sort of keepalive is useful - it's not clear to me that including this in 198 negotiation or such isn't better.

  47. ralphm

    linuxwolf: I understand the purpose, but I just thought it was funny

  48. Kev

    But I'm not objecting to putting this out there.

  49. stpeter

    ralphm: it is :)

  50. linuxwolf

    Kev: that's a possibility…this individual at least wanted to get their thoughts out there

  51. ralphm

    it is great troll food

  52. Kev

    And I think, in fact, that the Right thing to do if you're missing a whitespace you're expecting, and thus are tempted to d/c the client, is to think "Oh, golly, I'm waiting for a whing and don't have one. I'll send a XEP-0199 ping and if I don't get a response terminate the connection".

  53. Kev

    Rather than relying purely on the whitespace.

  54. linuxwolf


  55. stpeter

    gosh I saw that JPEG just yesterday :)

  56. ralphm


  57. Kev

    So, we've got these three Last Calls that finished.

  58. linuxwolf

    Kev: yeah, I don't know I agree with all of the strategies there…that, or wait for <n> "things"

  59. linuxwolf


  60. Kev

    I'm assuming Peter would like us to vote on them going to Draft, so I guess we can do that next week.

  61. Kev

    And I'll agendarisice them.

  62. Kev

    stpeter: Yes?

  63. linuxwolf

    well, the week after

  64. stpeter

    Kev: seems appropriate

  65. linuxwolf


  66. Kev

    linuxwolf: ?

  67. linuxwolf

    IETF is next week

  68. stpeter

    linuxwolf and I won't be here next week

  69. stpeter


  70. stpeter


  71. Kev

    Ah, right.

  72. ralphm

    so this is the: 'go give them a final read' cue

  73. stpeter figures out what time it will be then and what sessions will be happening

  74. linuxwolf

    still trying to get my slides together, too

  75. Kev

    ralphm: "Go give them a Draft read" :)

  76. linuxwolf


  77. ralphm


  78. Kev

    Ok, so, date of next meeting - fortnight today?

  79. linuxwolf


  80. stpeter

    I suppose I'll be in the CORE WG meeting at that time

  81. Kev

    Ok, I'll take that as OK from Ralph too :)

  82. Kev

    So, Any Other Busyness?

  83. linuxwolf


  84. Kev

    I've got an item, for a change.

  85. Kev

    Anyone else?

  86. linuxwolf


  87. stpeter

    none here

  88. Kev

    OK - so.

  89. Kev

    This fun fun thread on aborting the XSF because Board and Council are a bunch of layabouts.

  90. linuxwolf

    ha yeah

  91. linuxwolf

    maybe we should lynch them

  92. stpeter

    Kev: is that how you interpreted what I said? because that was not the intent

  93. ralphm


  94. Kev

    stpeter: No, but I think it was a subtext of the replies.

  95. linuxwolf

    stpeter: I think it was really the comments of others that lead us there

  96. linuxwolf


  97. Kev

    Where 'subtext' ~= 'The Mails"

  98. stpeter

    well, the Board and Council are not a bunch of layabouts!

  99. Kev

    Anyway, so, we should probably try and address this in some way.

  100. ralphm

    well, I guess the busy bees can start their own club. It's not like the XSF needs to be the One Ring

  101. Kev

    Even if 'this' is a perception.

  102. stpeter

    ralphm: :)

  103. linuxwolf

    ralphm: ¿viva le revolution?

  104. Kev

    I was thinking that one way of doing this might be for the outgoing Chair (oh boy I love making work for myself) for both Board and Council towards the end of term to produce a report of things like attendance through the term, missed votes, etc.

  105. ralphm

    more like: if you want change you can do three things: 1) whine, 2) apply for board/council and do (more?) stuff, 3) start your own club

  106. stpeter

    one little thing that would help, I think, is for the Board and Council chairs to send agendas for their meetings ~24 hours before each meeting to members@ and standards@ -- that might encourage more participation

  107. ralphm

    I wonder if it is more 1 than anything else

  108. Kev

    ralphm: I don't agree with that assesment.

  109. linuxwolf

    stpeter: that would help

  110. Kev

    It implies that the only people doing worthwhile things in the XSF are Board and Council, and I would dearly like to believe that to not be the case.

  111. Kev

    stpeter: We could do. Although this is less of an issue for Council than for Board.

  112. stpeter

    Kev: agreed

  113. ralphm

    Kev: agreed, but you mentioned that those two have all the lazy guys

  114. Kev

    In as much as anyone who cares about the Council agendas is welcome to either subscribe to or read the archives for the list where they're announced (and little else).

  115. Kev

    This isn't true of Board, so I'd certainly be in favour of advance agendas being made available there.

  116. stpeter

    Kev: true dat

  117. Kev

    I will send a mail to members@ and standards@ so people realise they can read the Council list.

  118. linuxwolf


  119. Kev

    ralphm: Oh, no, I don't think so. I think everyone's lazy :)

  120. ralphm

    I'm also not sure if the (lack of) activity of the board is really something that needs to be discussed in the council.

  121. linuxwolf

    it could also help if council members could take a more active role in discussions

  122. linuxwolf

    Kev's already there, and I think I'm a distant second….

  123. ralphm

    as for the council and standardization in general, I too wonder how much more needs to be standardized. Over the last 10+ years we've made a whole lot of building blocks, and it isn't odd that we have most of them now.

  124. Kev

    ralphm: It doesn't hurt, since both Council and Board were accused of inactivity, to look at the bigger picture. I agree that Council can't mandate direction to Board.

  125. stpeter

    ralphm: yes, I think that's a lot of what is going on!

  126. Kev

    OK, so I'm taking from this that apart from me mailing to make sure people know they can find the Council agendas in advance (even if they're vague like this week - sorry about that, been a *little* busy) there aren't any current actions.

  127. Kev

    Any other busyness?

  128. stpeter

    none here

  129. ralphm

    I do agree that I don't participate much in the mailinglists anymore

  130. ralphm

    this might be because of what is actually being discussed

  131. ralphm

    the signal/noise ratio

  132. linuxwolf

    ralphm: I've had that problem (-

  133. Kev

    I *try* to participate on the lists - I figure that's one of the responsibilities of Council.

  134. ralphm

    I'd like to know if anyone shares this feeling

  135. stpeter

    ralphm: again, perhaps in large measure the topics aren't as "core" as they once were because we've defined so many extensions already

  136. ralphm

    and if we are actually developing standards there or that it is mostly editorial comments and 'helpdesk'

  137. linuxwolf

    for standards@, I don't think there's much noise there, personally

  138. ralphm

    I don't want to trash everyone on those lists, though, to be clear

  139. Kev

    There's still a reasonable amount of protocol discussion going on, and I don't think there's a lot of noise.

  140. Kev

    I grant I don't tend to pay attention to juser or the suchlike, but standards@ seems ok still.

  141. linuxwolf

    I'm not sure I'm still subscribed to juser… /-:

  142. Kev

    linuxwolf: I don't think this is a bad thing :)

  143. Kev


  144. stpeter

    no AOB here :)

  145. linuxwolf

    none from me

  146. Kev

    I think we've worn this out for the moment, we can readdressif stuff happens on list.

  147. ralphm


  148. linuxwolf


  149. Kev

    I'll provide minutes at some point soonish. I've poked Fritzy for his pending votishness.

  150. Kev

    Thanks all.

  151. Kev bangs the gavel.

  152. linuxwolf


  153. stpeter

    thanks, guys!

  154. MattJ

    Heh, just made it back from the meeting, I'll catch up here when I have a moment

  155. Kev

    Ta. Only one action for you - the Whing spec.

  156. MattJ

    Can't we call them whips instead?

  157. MattJ

    Prosody already has a mod_smacks...