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stpeter
greetings
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MattJ
Greetings stpeter
- linuxwolf waves
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stpeter
MattJ: are still in NYC?
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MattJ
How was Quebec?
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MattJ
I am
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stpeter
it was enjoyable
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Kev
Evening all.
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stpeter
nice place
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stpeter
enjoyable and busy, of course
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linuxwolf
very French (-:
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MattJ
Heh
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Kev
Right, it is time.
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Kev
1) Roll call.
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Kev
I'm here!
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Fritzy
howdy
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linuxwolf
presente
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MattJ
Presents
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linuxwolf
dang…a full house?! unpossible!
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linuxwolf
oh, no ralphm
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MattJ
Don't get your hopes up :)
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Kev
2) Promote XEP-0260 to Draft? http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2011-June/024722.html
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linuxwolf
+1; I think I found a couple cosmetic grammatical error, but not enough to hold it up
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Fritzy
no traffic on the mailing list?
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MattJ
Am I correct in that we had no LC feedback?
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linuxwolf
not until this morning
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Kev
Tobias had feedback on both.
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Kev
(A few minutes ago)
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MattJ
Oh, Tobias
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Kev
It bothers me somewhat that we're promoting stuff to draft that only a single person says they've implemented or intend to implement.
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MattJ
So, I've implemented most of 260 - but it was some time ago, I'd like to know interop with someone worked
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MattJ
I'd like to test with Tobias in particular
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MattJ
and Gajim implements it I think, if we can track down the code (I'm not sure it's in trunk)
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Fritzy
ok, well, sounds like 260 has at least two implementers
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Fritzy
3
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linuxwolf
yeah, that was my sense
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dwd
IIRC, Gajim's Jingle-FT is in a branch, yes.
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MattJ
Implementers, no real world experience
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Fritzy
right
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linuxwolf
true
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Kev
Can we put off 260 and 261 until next week, and chase people in the meantime for feedback?
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linuxwolf
wfm
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Fritzy
Should we hold off on draft until we see some interop, at least anecdotally?
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Tobias
there's also a pidgin branch implementing 260 and 261..at least claiming that
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MattJ
dwd, Asterix told me he was merging it "tomorrow" about 6 months ago
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Fritzy
cool, let's give it a week
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stpeter
MattJ: :)
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linuxwolf
the same would be true for 261, yes?
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Tobias
well..IBB to pidgin works for me
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MattJ
I'd like to bring up the last call issues in AOB
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Kev
It doesn't seem that waiting a week will significantly hurt anything, and it may give us a much better-informed position to comment from.
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Kev
stpeter: Your thoughts?
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dwd
I note that proof of interop is not required by XEP-0001 for Draft.
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stpeter
fine with me
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Kev
dwd: Not required, but if we have known implementors, it makes sense to me to try to get feedback.
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Fritzy
dwd: *nod* -- still, seems like we're blind without at least some evidence that it works.
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stpeter
personally I've been having dark thoughts about how everyone will just use http://tools.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/ before long anyway, but what do I know? ;-)
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Kev
For the sake of a week.
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linuxwolf
stpeter: heh
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Kev
So, assuming that covers 3) Advance 261 to Draft as well...
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dwd
True. Just noting that you don't *have* to. But specifically pinging implementors seems like a plan.
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Kev
4) Advance 266 to Draft http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2011-June/024625.html
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MattJ
+1 from me, I think
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ralphm
hello
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MattJ
Hey ralphm :)
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linuxwolf
+1 from me
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Kev
Hi Ralph.
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Tobias
stpeter, what's the epub symbol there on the WebRTC WG page? IETF publishing in ePub now? :)
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linuxwolf
damn…we do have a full house
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linuxwolf
(-:
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stpeter
re codecs, see also http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cbran-rtcweb-codec-00
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linuxwolf
Tobias: some things, yes…sort of (-:
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Kev
So, I know there was some amount of discussion on list about 266/Opus, but as far as I can tell the XEP does address that (we shouldn't be recommending it/we're not, we should be noting the claim/we are).
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linuxwolf
exactly
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stpeter
rightio
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MattJ
Same logic from me
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Fritzy
+1
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linuxwolf
there's more consensus on jingle@ mailing list
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ralphm
+!
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ralphm
ehm, +1
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MattJ
Heh
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linuxwolf
(-:
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Kev
There was someone offering to list all the reasons it was bad, then not doing so when asked to, so I'm +1 on this in the absence of any clearly unaddressed issues.
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stpeter
I like +!
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ralphm
and agreed about #2 and #3
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stpeter
or +¡
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Fritzy
haha
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Kev
So, noting there's two AOB items (Matt and Matt).
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ralphm
there doesn't seem to be a unicode code point for [approved]
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linuxwolf
fußy
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Kev
5) Time of next meeting?
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Kev
Next week, same time?
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stpeter
WFM
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ralphm
yup
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linuxwolf
no news from Quebéc?
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linuxwolf
and that date/time works for me
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Kev
linuxwolf: That's your AOB item :)
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Kev
Well, yours/PSA's.
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stpeter
actually Québec :)
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linuxwolf
haha
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Kev
6) AOB.
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ralphm
:-)
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Kev
Québec report from Peter/Matt:
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linuxwolf
grazíe
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ralphm
(expecting a large paste here)
- linuxwolf digs up email sent earlier...
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stpeter
the main topics were s2s/DNA, i18n, and e2e encryption
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linuxwolf
so, on the XMPP front...
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ralphm
(wow, why are linuxwolf's /me messages styled in a huge font?)
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MattJ
They seem to be XHTML-IM
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linuxwolf
ugh
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linuxwolf
I need to get a better client
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linuxwolf
or write one /ducks
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linuxwolf
anyway
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ralphm
Before the last upgrade I patched gajim to disregard certain styles
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MattJ
linuxwolf, join the club
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Fritzy
ssshh, we're hearing a report
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ralphm
in particular font-color, family and size
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linuxwolf
hehe
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linuxwolf
so
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linuxwolf
DNA
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Fritzy
"the main topics were s2s/DNA, i18n, and e2e encryption"
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linuxwolf
the biggest concern seemed to be around requiring tedious software upgrades (DNSSEC-based)...
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linuxwolf
…or sharing cert+keys from the hostee to the hoster (cert-based)
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linuxwolf
post-session, there was some agreement to a compromise...
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linuxwolf
…to use a descriptor file served from the hostee's HTTPS server that listed the valid name (or certificate) for the _xmpp-server._tcp service
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linuxwolf
Joe Hildebrand and Eric Rescola were working on a draft, so I think something should be emerging in the next week or two
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Kev
Which is really just the age-old trick of shifting-the-problem-without-solving-much.
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linuxwolf
right
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MattJ
brb, switching to wifi (198 would be so useful right now)
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stpeter
:)
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ralphm
based on .well-known?
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linuxwolf
and with the CA trust anchors in x.509 being less-than-stellar...
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linuxwolf
ralphm: yes
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dwd
I basically agree, but I think it's an achievable goal and workable if one assumes that it's a fallback from DNSSEC.
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linuxwolf
/nod
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ralphm
yeah I can imagine the approach
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ralphm
dwd: agreed
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ralphm
'assumes' or 'requires'
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linuxwolf
on the i18n front…it's basically see what happens in PRECÍS, although stpeter can comment more there
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stpeter
yes, I've been pushing for progress on internationalization
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linuxwolf
we'll need to do something
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stpeter
I need to update the precis-framework document based on feedback received in Québec City
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linuxwolf
/nod
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stpeter
I worry a bit about Kev's point that changing the address format might require a version change to XMPP itself, but we'll see if that's needed...
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ralphm
linuxwolf: as in 'nobody is picking up the work'?
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linuxwolf
ralphm: it's more that "this is hard, and we don't know what to do"
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stpeter
ralphm: unfortunately, few people care about internationalization, and even fewer know how to help
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ralphm
or can take time to work on it
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stpeter
however, I think we can see a realistic path forward
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linuxwolf
/nod
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Kev
stpeter: I realise I'm speaking as someone who does't understand this stuff, but I only see two options - either updating away from 'prep gives us something new and therefore isn't compatible, or it's not giving us anything that stringprep/fixed unicode versioning doesn't.
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stpeter
I mean, what we're working on is based on / similar to what people are already using for domain names
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linuxwolf
I think it's more that it's hard and daunting, so the motivation to work on it is less
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dwd
FWIW, Isode folk have picked up some knowledge; I'll see if I can get some time from Alexey and Kurt on this.
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linuxwolf
I've been getting a crash course from stpeter and hildjj
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linuxwolf
it is daunting
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ralphm
Kev: I see. And your point is that since the JIDs already appear in the stream header, you can't discover it?
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stpeter
Kev: right -- we need to dig into those issues, which I plan to do Real Soon Now™
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stpeter
ralphm: right
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linuxwolf
Kev: it's not clear if it will really break in the practical sense, or just the theoretical sense
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linuxwolf
or at least not clear to me
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stpeter
yeah
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stpeter
well, further updates on the way :)
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stpeter
next item?
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linuxwolf
the fixed unicode is, or will be very soon, breaking in the practical sense
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MattJ
I don't think it needs a version bump
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dwd
Kev, I think we may need to signal in the <stream:stream>, but it's not clear this is a full version-break.
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linuxwolf
MattJ: I don't think it's clear yet
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ralphm
linuxwolf: so we need to assert the risk of breakage and decide if we think that is generally acceptable
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Fritzy
So, how was the weather?
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linuxwolf
ralphm: basically…there's more to it, but that's one of the big things
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MattJ
if the JID is valid, who cares about the version? if it's invalid (and should be valid) then there's a broken interop whether we bump the version or no
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Kev
So, was that the total for the WG meet?
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linuxwolf
Fritzy: warm, but not unpleasant (-:
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linuxwolf
there was an E2E presentation of sorts (-:
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ralphm
Well, if we ever change the version number, I have a wish list
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ralphm
:-D
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linuxwolf
that is basically waiting on output from WOES cum JOSE
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dwd
linuxwolf, That's just a tradition, now, right?
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Kev
MattJ: Unless it's valid, or different, under different profiles and you need to signal the profile. If you have a profile in common you can interop, otherwise not. This can be a version number, or just another top level attribute on the stream header.
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linuxwolf
dwd: essentially (-:
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MattJ
ralphm, you and how many other people? :)
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ralphm
MattJ: how is that relevant :-P
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MattJ
Kev, true, valid but "different" would be awkward
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stpeter
forget about XMPP 1.0+, just use WebSocket
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Kev
linuxwolf: Is there more to say on e2e?
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Kev
Or shall we move onto MattJ's AOB for the last 2 minutes?
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MattJ
stpeter, because those guys really have their act together
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ralphm
stpeter: hehe
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dwd
stpeter, Can't on S2S, neither end would know which one should be encrypting their output.
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Kev
MattJ: You wanted to AOB about the LC feedback?
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MattJ
Right
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linuxwolf
Kev: there's a WG forming for "better" crypto options, which is now called JOSE…otherwise nothing concrete yet
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MattJ
Kev, it was just a thought that I had before the meeting
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MattJ
that it's not uncommon for us to have no LC feedback, despite implementations existing
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MattJ
and I'm wondering if that's something we can improve on
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ralphm
MattJ: which could either mean our specs are awesome, or nobody cares to write up issues?
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MattJ
ralphm, nobody cares, most certainly :)
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linuxwolf
heh
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Tobias
the latter
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linuxwolf
yeah
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MattJ
I'm just wondering if we should make it someone's responsibility to research implementations and reach out to these people
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Kev
ralphm: If they were awesome, but people cared, they'd still reply to the "Is this spec alright?" mail.
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MattJ
I know that's what we're doing already, typically
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MattJ
but only after the first LC period fails
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Kev
Right.
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ralphm
So would it help to approach the (known) implementers more directly?
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Kev
A question to send out to list, probably.
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linuxwolf
/hnod
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MattJ
ralphm, that's the idea
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linuxwolf
/nod even
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Kev
As we've just hit half past so we're out of time.
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stpeter
it seems to me that dedicated protocols like SIP and XMPP and IMAP are going away for client-to-server interactions, and we'll just be left with WebSocket and JavaScript APIs -- however, we'll still need s2s protocols for federation purposes (if anyone ever wants to federate in the brave new world of web silos
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MattJ
stpeter, you can be cynical sometimes :)
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linuxwolf
stpeter: I don't think that's true at all
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stpeter
MattJ: just reading the writing on the wall
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stpeter
or maybe I just need a vacation
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Fritzy
Well, stpeter is right that there is that trend
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MattJ
Looking at a different wall to me
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MattJ
There's hype
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Fritzy
but I don't think it'll be ultimately to that side
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MattJ
I don't know if that constitutes trend just yet
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linuxwolf
stpeter: except those WS + JS end up using something that looks an awful lot like XMPP or SIP or IMAP d-:
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stpeter
linuxwolf: perhaps, yeah
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Kev
In any case, I think we're done.
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Kev
Any other any other?
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MattJ
None from me
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stpeter
meeting is done, I think
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linuxwolf
nay
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ralphm
just like Ruby is taking over the world
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Kev
Righty.
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Kev
Thanks all
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Fritzy
:)
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Tobias
lol
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Fritzy
ciao!
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linuxwolf
haha
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stpeter
ralphm: Ruby forever!
- Kev gangs the bavel.
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MattJ
I'll email standards@ about LC
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stpeter
MattJ: thanks
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linuxwolf
grazíe
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ralphm
MattJ: I'll bet you get loads of responses
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stpeter
clearly Lua is taking over the world ;-)
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MattJ
ralphm, :)
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linuxwolf
¡chao!
- stpeter glances at the Lua book that linuxwolf just loaned him
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MattJ
stpeter, http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html :)
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ralphm
I do think lua is kinda cool
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linuxwolf
stpeter: it's really hildjj's (-:
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Tobias
MattJ, right there trending with Transact-SQL
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linuxwolf
although JavaScript is the new Ruby…with Lua maybe the new Python d-:
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ralphm
I /was/ kind of surprised finding out that prosody doesn't respond well to a 4G lua file with offline storage
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linuxwolf
ok, off to my next meeting
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MattJ
ralphm, lovely
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MattJ
ralphm, FWIW we're working on that :)
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ralphm
MattJ: well, it was also something I needed to fix on my end
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ralphm
they were piling up pubsub notifications for resources that were no longer listening
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MattJ
Sure, but if you want 4GB of offline messages...
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Tobias
how long is a Last Call period?
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linuxwolf
a fortnight, IIRC
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linuxwolf
"The Last Call shall expire not less than fourteen (14) days after the date of issue."
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linuxwolf
so, a fortnight is a minimum (-:
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stpeter
sometimes we declare longer review periods
-
stpeter
e.g., for large or controversial specs
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ralphm
15 is right out, so is 13, unless followed by 14
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stpeter
or if there are some holidays in the middble
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linuxwolf
or extend them
-
stpeter
that too
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ralphm
:-D
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dwd
Tobias, Extending Last Calls is specifically allowed: If necessary, the XMPP Extensions Editor may, at his discretion and in consultation with the XMPP Council, extend the Last Call or issue a new Last Call if the XEP requires further discussion.
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stpeter
and we've done that in the past
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dwd
Right, I recall a few times, actually.
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Tobias
interesting
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Tobias
http://jabber.markmail.org/ <-- watching that activity graph we soon are at about 0 :)
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stpeter
Tobias: interesting
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stpeter
not that different from, say, http://spamassassin.markmail.org/
-
Tobias
stpeter, but spam is decreasing year over year..so that's no surprise ;)
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stpeter
heh maybe
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Tobias
but it's not just that graph..i've been noticing quite a decline in xmpp related mailing list activity...don't know if that's due to work on new standard or whatever
-
stpeter
Tobias: agreed
-
stpeter
I think XMPP has become a stable, boring technology
-
stpeter
or most of the energy is moving to things like node.js and websockets
-
stpeter
not quite sure yet
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dwd
Tobias, It's a sign that we're not working on anything interesting right now.
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linuxwolf
it's not the new hotness (-:
-
stpeter
heh
-
stpeter
it's the old hotness?
-
Tobias
dwd, file transfer is interesting...since it's the thing that never works :P
-
dwd
Tobias, But I wouldn't read too much into that - IMAP went dead for several years then popped back up for all the mobile mail stuff.
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linuxwolf
it could heat up again when people realize that WebSockets turned out to be warmed over cometd/BOSH (-: /ducks
- stpeter laughs
-
dwd
linuxwolf, WS is, in principle, faster, except that the repeated buffering and XORs are, I think, going to wear away some of that benefit.
-
dwd
linuxwolf, The interesting question is whether it'll fly on mobile. Very little mobile experience in that group, and there's the usual crop of "Well, I heard that on mobile [...]".
-
linuxwolf
dwd: yeah, we'll see
-
Tobias
isn't WebSocket still going over TCP?
-
linuxwolf
I've still got my doubts
-
linuxwolf
Tobias: it's worse than that
-
dwd
Tobias, Yes, but TCP is fine on mobile.
-
dwd
Tobias, You've got to get much worse networks for TCP to be a problem.
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Tobias
dwd, Apple seems to think different, watched a couple of sessions from their last WWDC, they discourage any long living connection. I guess other mobile vendors think different. Opening TCP connections over and over again can't be that good for speed/latency/battery/etc.
-
Tobias
or not?
-
linuxwolf
I guess watching that train wreak…er, mailing list…made me a bit jaded
-
dwd
Tobias, On the vast majority of mobile networks, you can leave a TCP session open and happy for 15 minutes or more, these days.
-
dwd
Tobias, That is, without sending any traffic at all.
-
linuxwolf
/nod
-
Tobias
dwd, while traveling through half the country?
-
dwd
I've certainly held TCP sessions whilst on a train. I even held them through the Severn Tunnel a couple of times during Council meetings. :-)
-
linuxwolf
Tobias: from my limited experience, as long as I don't drop below a certain signal threshold, I've been fine
-
linuxwolf
but I'm in the US (-:
-
stpeter
OT: does anyone care about jabberpowered.org anymore? I need to decide whether to renew the domain registration :)
-
linuxwolf
we still had that?
-
stpeter
yep
-
stpeter
every year I try to decide whether I still need to renew it :)
-
linuxwolf
heh
- stpeter decides to register a different domain name instead
-
linuxwolf
thefutureiswebsocketsnotxmpp.com?
-
Tobias
heh
-
stpeter
:)
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