- xask has joined
- xask has left
- xask has joined
- xask has left
- stpeter has joined
- linuxwolf has joined
-
stpeter
greetings, and 30-minute warning :)
-
Kev
Moin.
-
linuxwolf
hola
- MattJ has joined
-
stpeter
and my dent didn't get posted at identi.ca -- perhaps their xmpp interface is not happy
-
stpeter
tweeted it instead :P
-
Neustradamus
stpeter: http://identi.ca/notice/84187967
- Kev has left
-
linuxwolf
yeah, I got nuttin'
- Kev has joined
-
MattJ
Kev's -30s meeting
-
Neustradamus
stpeter: oups: http://identi.ca/conversation/84183552#notice-84188156
-
MattJ
Interesting, what Gajim says the time is doesn't match my system clock...
- dbanes has joined
-
stpeter
Neustradamus: perhaps I need to use their website instead of the xmpp interface...
-
Kev
It's currently 2 minutes to the meeting in the Chair's time.
-
linuxwolf
MattJ: is it off by minutes, or hours? (-:
-
MattJ
Minutes
-
MattJ
Maybe it's drift from suspend/resume
-
MattJ
which one is correct I'm not sure :)
-
linuxwolf
hehe
-
MattJ
Ok, Gajim matches `date`, so it's just my taskbar that's wrong
-
Neustradamus
stpeter: yes
-
dbanes
Hi all, random visit while having a coffee...
-
Kev
Right, time for the meeting.
-
Kev
1) Roll call.
-
Kev
I'm here.
-
stpeter
hi dbanes
-
linuxwolf
presente
-
dbanes
hi @stpeter [on mute now]
-
Kev
MattJ: Present?
-
MattJ
Present
-
MattJ
Sorry
-
Kev
Goodo.
-
Kev
No sign of Ralph, and Fritzy Is No More.
-
MattJ
:'(
-
Kev
Or, well, sign of Ralph but he's DND.
-
stpeter
Ralph is dnd with some strange status messages
-
linuxwolf
Ralph is doing development for some legacy social media site, apparently (-:
-
stpeter
heh yeah
-
Kev
3) Move -260 to Draft?
-
MattJ
It could be XMPP related :)
-
MattJ
+1
-
Kev
2, rather.
-
linuxwolf
+1
-
Kev
I'm assuming this is an easy +1 as we reviewed it not long ago and it's been marginally updated to reflect feedback since.
-
Kev
I'm +1 anyway
-
Kev
3) 261?
-
Kev
+1
-
MattJ
+1
-
stpeter
Kev: I was going to double-check all threads related to 260 yesterday, but I wasn't feeling well so didn't get to it
- Tobias has joined
-
Kev
Something going around? I've been rough for a week.
-
MattJ
Something going around, my brother's ill
-
Kev
My understanding was that 260 feedback had now been addressed.
-
linuxwolf
scary that it's jumping continents
-
Kev
And the same for 261.
-
Kev
linuxwolf: I was in the US when I caught it.
-
linuxwolf
that's my understanding, too
-
Kev
Now in the UK.
-
stpeter
Kev is the transmission mechanism!
-
linuxwolf
Kev: oh, well, congrats on being a Typhoid Mary (-:
-
linuxwolf
patient zero
-
Kev
Thanks.
-
Kev
linuxwolf: Do you have a vote on 261?
-
linuxwolf
+1
-
linuxwolf
sorry
-
Kev
4) 249 1.2?
-
Kev
+1
-
MattJ
+1
-
linuxwolf
+1 also
-
Kev
5) http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/account-management.html - accept as XEP?
-
Kev
This doesn't look right to me.
-
MattJ
I only managed to get halfway in my review
-
MattJ
(I underestimated how long it was)
-
Kev
I don't believe these things are really stream features, for a start.
-
Kev
I don't think password setting is done the right way (we're not trying to protect against the server knowing our password for the server)
- remko has joined
-
Kev
Various other things are quite funky.
-
linuxwolf
/nod
-
Kev
I'm also quite interested in the suggestion that server may either store passworddata in more or less secure forms than plaintext.
-
stpeter
Kev: yeah, if you're worried about an attack from the server then run your own server
-
Kev
I've taken advice on what less secure storage than plaintext could be, and have had both Twitter and billboards in the West End suggested.
-
Kev
:)
-
stpeter
BTW Jehan wanted to be here but the timezone difference was too much
-
linuxwolf
(-:
-
Kev
stpeter: I saw that.
-
Kev
So, despite my opinion that we should accept everything that isn't obviously wrong, this seems sufficiently wrong in sufficiently many ways to me to want to reject it.
-
Kev
I can be talked down on this if my fellow Council members feel I'm wrong.
-
MattJ
I'm prepared to accept it
-
MattJ
But I'll follow up on list after I finish reviewing
-
linuxwolf
I'm prepared to accept it, but not to talk someone down from their position
-
MattJ
Heh
-
Kev
MattJ: Because you don't believe using non-stream-features as stream-features is the wrong approach etc., or because you think it's the wrong approach but not strongly enough to block it?
-
Kev
I read through this (and it took a while) and my opinion is roughly thus:
-
MattJ
Kev, because I see it has potential, and isn't obviously terrible to the point of not accepting (though I already have a list of feedback)
-
MattJ
Experimental is not final, we're not forcing people to implement it
-
MattJ
and we're not saying it's perfect
-
Kev
77 could do with updating. This tries to update 77. Yay. It does it in several wrong ways and the protoXEP needs a lot of work. If such work were put in fairly early, I don't really mind it happening on the vine. If this were to go on the vine for 12 months and get implemented in that time without attention from the author, I think it's harmful.
-
stpeter
right, I see Experimental as "this is reasonable a starting point for discussion"
-
MattJ
I agree with both your statements
-
stpeter
heh
-
MattJ
I suspect it won't get implemented anywhere though without a push
-
linuxwolf
I see Kev's point, but there is a reason a big red warning is at the top of experimental XEPs
-
MattJ
Indeed
-
Kev
linuxwolf: Right. Although the quality of Experimentals is *generally* fairly high.
-
linuxwolf
*generally* (-:
-
Kev
Right.
-
linuxwolf
I'm not disagreeing that this has problems
-
MattJ
Me neither
-
linuxwolf
IMO, I think doing something non-XMPP would be an overall better approach, but that's me
-
MattJ
If it makes you happier, we can push it off for a week
-
Kev
Right - it's just a question of whether they're severe enough to need fixing before even going to Experimental.
-
MattJ
We can give our feedback, and see how we feel after it's been hashed out on-list
-
linuxwolf
/nod
-
Kev
I'm generally in favour of accepting just about anything non-broken as Experimental.
-
Kev
Ok, this seems like a reasonable approach, thanks.
-
linuxwolf
I haven't decided yet if account-management is broken, either
-
linuxwolf
but that's me
-
Kev
So we'll start list feedback, and hold off accepting until feedback's underway, but not actively reject it?
-
MattJ
Ah yes
-
MattJ
Yes
-
linuxwolf
agreed
-
Kev
Ok, WFM, thanks.
-
Kev
6) Replace Fritzy
-
linuxwolf
well
-
linuxwolf
there's only about 4-5 weeks left in the term
-
Kev
We have the ability to replace our missing member. Do we want to, when we have days left of the term?
-
MattJ
I see no need
-
linuxwolf
neither do I
-
Kev
I'd rather have a full Council, but simply getting someone started would probably take the rest of the term.
- dwd has joined
-
Kev
I've not checked Bylaws recently. From memory it's at Council's discretion whether to replace a shortfall, but if someone calls us out on list for being bad people we can check and do what's appropriate.
-
dwd
It's at the discretion of COuncil.
-
stpeter
it is
-
Kev
Jolly good.
-
Kev
7) Date of next meeting.
-
Kev
SBTSBC?
-
MattJ
+1
-
linuxwolf
wfm
-
Kev
Lovely.
-
Kev
8) AOB?
-
MattJ
None here I think
-
linuxwolf
nay
-
MattJ
Oh
-
dwd
"The Council shall at its discretion determine whether to fill any vacancies on the Council caused by resignation or removal of an existing Council member."
- stpeter needs to finalize the XEP-0045 fixes
-
MattJ
MUC...
-
MattJ
stpeter, great minds :)
-
stpeter
FND!
-
Kev
Incidentally, I'm implementing MUC in Swift at the moment.
-
MattJ
Great
-
dwd
stpeter, "Seldom", as I recall the expression.
-
linuxwolf
it's always fun (-:
-
stpeter
Kev: re-implementing?
-
MattJ
A long long time ago, Dave and I had a wishlist thread on MUC iirc
-
Kev
stpeter: Implementing. It only has join/message functionality atm.
-
stpeter
ah
-
dwd
MattJ, Me Dave? Did we?
-
Kev
I want to be able to kick people :D
-
stpeter
Kev: I'm in no great hurry if you'd like me to wait for more implementation feedback
-
MattJ
I'm still keen on some of those things, but I might dig it up and see what /really/ needs to go into 45 and what could be a new XEP
-
stpeter
MattJ: right
-
Kev
I'm assuming we're not pushing to Final quite yet, anyway.
-
stpeter
MattJ: I have some things, too, but they're add-ons
-
stpeter
Kev: no
-
Kev
So even if I have feedback after the current push, no foul.
-
Kev
Anything we need to discuss about MUC?
-
stpeter
BTW it seems that we never published http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/mucstatus.html ?
-
dwd
I'm thinking, FWIW, that various bits like the voice requests do need hiving off into other XEPs.
-
Kev
I know I've not reviewed the diffs yet.
-
stpeter
ahwe did
-
stpeter
n/m
- stpeter creates the http redirect
-
Kev
Ok, so AOAOB?
-
MattJ
None here
-
linuxwolf
naynay
-
Kev
stpeter?
-
Kev
Anyone else?
-
stpeter
nothing here
-
Kev
Fab.
-
Kev
Thanks all.
-
linuxwolf
grazie
- Kev gangs beh tavel
- dbanes has left
-
stpeter
thanks, guys
-
Kev
I vaguely remember promising members@ that I'd put together a summary of the term, with a list of times people managed to be late or fail to turn up for meetings.
-
Kev
That sounds like fun :/
-
stpeter
:)
-
linuxwolf
hehe
- remko has left
- stpeter sends an email about i18n insanity
- ralphm has joined
-
ralphm
sorry guys
-
Kev
Too busy chatting on Facebook? :)
-
stpeter
heh
-
stpeter
ralphm: feel free to vote on agenda items while you're here
-
stpeter
http://xmpp.org:5290/muc_log/muc.xmpp.org/council/110921/
-
ralphm
Kev: hehe. No, releasing several sites to production
-
stpeter
ralphm: shall we wait for you to vote on-list about 260, 261, and 249?
-
stpeter
no big hurry, and I need to check a few things about 260 anyway
-
ralphm
+1 on both really
-
Kev
There are three :)
-
ralphm
oh, hehe
-
ralphm
oh, yeah, that change to 249 is great too
-
ralphm
+1
-
ralphm
and +1 on making that protoxep experimenal
-
ralphm
+t
-
stpeter
ralphm: ok thanks
-
stpeter
your reviews are appreciated :)
-
ralphm
fwiw, I think replacing fritzy at this point is useless
-
ralphm
about muc status conditions
-
ralphm
could we not model it more like we did with stanza errors, just adding a child to <status/>?
-
ralphm
I've also thought about something similar to the type attribute we have in stanza errors, to denote the different types of conditions
-
ralphm
(as a 'replacement' of the numbering scheme of the current status codes)
-
ralphm
stpeter: what do you think?
-
stpeter
ralphm: did you look at http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0306.html ?
-
ralphm
yes, I tried to implement it
-
ralphm
and found it a bit cumbersome
-
stpeter
aha
-
ralphm
if we are going to have a migration path, it would be nice if the different status codes and conditions are more closely related in the protocol. As with stanza errors, we can eventually lose the 'code' attribute
-
stpeter
I'm all in favor of simpler
-
stpeter
right, I see
-
ralphm
I think modelling it exactly like with stanza errors would work great, here
-
ralphm
I'm not sure if we actually need a new namespace in that setting
-
ralphm
but that's a detail imo
-
stpeter
ok
-
stpeter
I think the concern was duplication when you have multiple <status/> elements
-
linuxwolf
/nod
-
dwd
Well, you can't, in practical terms.
-
ralphm
so, more like: <presence from='coven@chat.shakespeare.lit/thirdwitch' id='n13mt3l' to='hag66@shakespeare.lit/pda'> <x xmlns='http://jabber.org/protocol/muc#user'> <item affiliation='member' role='participant'/> <status code='100' type='informational'> <status code='110'/> <conditions xmlns='urn:xmpp:muc:conditions:0'> <realjid-public/> <self-presence/> </conditions> </x> </presence>
-
stpeter
dwd: you can't what?
-
ralphm
oops
-
dwd
stpeter, Have multiple status codes.
-
dwd
stpeter, There's enough clients out there that can't handle more than one. And those that can't aren't consistent with which ones they ignore.
-
ralphm
<presence from='coven@chat.shakespeare.lit/thirdwitch' id='n13mt3l' to='hag66@shakespeare.lit/pda'> <x xmlns='http://jabber.org/protocol/muc#user'> <item affiliation='member' role='participant'/> <status code='100' type='informational'> <realjid-public/> </status> <status code='110' type='informational'> <self-presence/> </status> </x> </presence>
-
stpeter
dwd: right, so I've heard
-
ralphm
I'm not sure about the @type, yet.
- stpeter needs to pay attention to the discussion in xsf@muc.xmpp.org (server certification) but will dip in here once in a while
-
ralphm
going to commute now
-
ralphm
I'll check back in a bit
- linuxwolf goes back to work
- ralphm has left
- Kev has joined
- dwd has joined
- stpeter has joined
- Kooda has joined
- Neustradamus has joined
- MattJ has joined
- drасо has joined
- linuxwolf has joined
- linuxwolf has left
- linuxwolf has joined
- linuxwolf has left
- linuxwolf has joined
- Neustradamus has joined
- Neustradamus has joined
- linuxwolf has left
- linuxwolf has joined
- linuxwolf has left
- xask has joined
- xask has left
- xask has joined
- xask has left
- stpeter has joined
- linuxwolf has joined
- MattJ has joined
- Kev has left
- Kev has joined
- dbanes has joined
- Tobias has joined
- remko has joined
- dwd has joined
- dbanes has left
- remko has left
- ralphm has joined
- ralphm has left
- Kev has joined
- dwd has joined
- stpeter has joined
- Kooda has joined
- Neustradamus has joined
- MattJ has joined
- drасо has joined
- linuxwolf has joined
- linuxwolf has left
- linuxwolf has joined
- linuxwolf has left
- linuxwolf has joined
- Neustradamus has joined
- Neustradamus has joined
- linuxwolf has left
- linuxwolf has joined
- linuxwolf has left