XMPP Council - 2012-01-10

  1. Kev

    Council in 56 minutes, by my count.

  2. Tobias


  3. Tobias

    Kev, do you plan more error info tags like <server-unavailable/> in psa?

  4. Tobias

    or are those supposed to be the standard ones from the RFC?

  5. Kev

    Those are the only two I'd anticipated. They're not explicitly mappet other ones.

  6. stpeter

    posted a microblog about the meeting

  7. Kev

    So I see :)

  8. stpeter


  9. stpeter

    I'll ping linuxwolf IRL

  10. stpeter

    Matthew appears to be online

  11. stpeter

    Ralph is auto-away

  12. stpeter

    BTW http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xmpp-council/ is out of date :)

  13. stpeter


  14. Kev

    So it is.

  15. Kev

    Tobias: Please provide some text for your blurb.

  16. Tobias

    for my what?

  17. Kev

    blurb |blərb| noun a short description of a book, movie, or other product written for promotional purposes and appearing on the cover of a book or in an advertisement.

  18. Tobias


  19. stpeter

    Matthew said he's joining

  20. stpeter

    pinged Ralph as well

  21. Kev

    I'd already pinged both.

  22. stpeter


  23. stpeter

    in stereo!

  24. MattJ

    btw, when's the next board meeting?

  25. Kev

    Have I really been Chair for four terms now?

  26. Kev

    I'm surprised it's that long without someone kicking me out.

  27. MattJ

    Quite possibly

  28. stpeter

    Kev: I think so :)

  29. stpeter might stand for Council next time :)

  30. MattJ


  31. stpeter

    MattJ: should be tomorrow at 16:30 UTC, I pinged the board list about that earlier today

  32. stpeter updates the calendar

  33. Kev


  34. Kev

    I've updated http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xmpp-council/ slightly.

  35. Kev

    Please all check your blurbs and send in as appropriate.

  36. Kev

    Or edit yourself if you have the powers.

  37. Kev

    Onto the meeting:

  38. Kev

    1) Roll call

  39. Kev

    I'm here.

  40. stpeter

    thanks, Kev

  41. linuxwolf


  42. Kev

    MattJ / Tobias?

  43. MattJ


  44. Tobias


  45. Kev

    2) http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/network.html Accept as XEP?

  46. MattJ


  47. linuxwolf


  48. Kev

    I read this, and I have only one significant complaint with it - I don't see why it requires the aggregator to be a server, it seems a task that could very well be performed by a bot or component.

  49. Tobias


  50. MattJ

    It's a good point

  51. Kev

    Tobias: Was that +1 to my comment, or to publishing?

  52. Tobias

    publishing on network xep

  53. stpeter

    Kev: true

  54. Kev

    I don't think it's a big enough point to block publication on, mind, but I think I'd rather see it addressed at some point.

  55. Kev

    I'm happy to publish.

  56. Ralph Meijer


  57. Kev

    3) http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/psa.html Accept as XEP?

  58. Kev

    Hi Ralph.

  59. Ralph Meijer

    +1 on 2)

  60. Kev


  61. MattJ

    +0 on 1) :)

  62. Ralph Meijer

    Kev: fwif, I don't see the difference between a server and a component, from the protocol point of view

  63. linuxwolf


  64. Kev

    Ralph Meijer: There isn't one, to the outside world.

  65. MattJ looks to see if PSA has changed since he saw it last

  66. MattJ

    and are the initials purely coincidental? :)

  67. Kev

    MattJ: I don't think so. Certainly not materially.

  68. Kev

    No, it was a backronym. Someone at Isode has a 'great' sense of humour.

  69. linuxwolf

    gee, I wonder who

  70. MattJ

    No idea

  71. MattJ

    I'm going to lose sleep over this one

  72. linuxwolf

    also, good use of 'quotes'

  73. Kev

    I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to guess which Chair of the Board that is.

  74. Ralph Meijer


  75. Ralph Meijer

    MattJ: really?

  76. MattJ

    Ralph Meijer, no :P

  77. MattJ

    So, +1

  78. linuxwolf

    anyhow…I've no objections to accepting as a XEP, provided "urn:xmpp:psa" is changed to "urn:xmpp:psa:0"

  79. Ralph Meijer

    +1, and what lw says

  80. Kev

    I realised that when writing MFR, and then forgot to go back and change it, thanks.

  81. linuxwolf

    which is very minor, and probably something the XEP editor catches (-:

  82. Kev


  83. Tobias

    yup...+1 from me on psa

  84. Kev

    4) http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/fastmuc.html Accept as XEP?

  85. Tobias

    looks sensible the way it is

  86. linuxwolf

    this one needs consistency work

  87. Kev

    Where, and before or after publication?

  88. linuxwolf

    this time, I would prefer before publication

  89. MattJ

    Typo in ns

  90. linuxwolf

    at least, pick a namespace (-:

  91. linuxwolf

    s/pick a namespace/pick one namespace/

  92. Kev

    Oh, just a namespace typo?

  93. linuxwolf

    there are areas I think are vague, but I think can be addressed after publication

  94. Ralph Meijer

    so that is a −1 for consistency?

  95. linuxwolf

    I didn't get a chance to send a comment about that before now, and am willing to wait until publication

  96. Tobias

    and the "I've just stopped writing"

  97. MattJ

    I think I'm +0 on this, until it's more fleshed out

  98. Kev

    I don't immediately see the namespace typo - can you point it out, please?

  99. MattJ


  100. linuxwolf

    is it "urn:xmpp:mfr" or "urn:xmpp:presence-session:0"?

  101. linuxwolf

    or urn:xmpp:pressence-session:0"

  102. Kev


  103. Kev

    mfr is the disco feature, rather than the namespace.

  104. linuxwolf mentally reduced the "ss" to "s", rather than ß

  105. linuxwolf

    is there a good reason to define a separate disco feature from the namespace?

  106. Kev

    There was a reason, but maybe it's not a good one.

  107. linuxwolf

    I'm not immediately seeing it from this draft

  108. Kev

    Someone could decide to use the same protocol for restablishing presence in other situations - such as after a client reconnect.

  109. Kev

    But no, probably not.

  110. linuxwolf

    in theory, we could have other protocols that act in a similar manner to MUC, but then shouldn't we make this more generic sooner rather than later?

  111. Kev

    Fixed in Git, everything's now urn:xmpp:presence-session:0

  112. linuxwolf

    and "MFR" is an application of the more-generic

  113. linuxwolf


  114. Kev

    I think it's generic at the moment.

  115. Ralph Meijer

    I'm +1 on publishing

  116. Kev

    That is - the protocol is generic at the moment, but the described use case isn't.

  117. linuxwolf


  118. Kev

    I didn't want to open the rabbit hole of trying to do fast client reconnect with presence restablishment right now, but wrote the protocol such that we could in the future.

  119. linuxwolf

    it does need fleshing out … but I'll not object to publishing on that account

  120. Kev

    In which case, I think we'd extract the normative bits into another XEP, and reference that. It wouldn't affect implementations.

  121. linuxwolf


  122. stpeter


  123. Kev

    So, I *think* that's no objection from M/M/R. Tobias?

  124. MattJ

    It's no objection, but I'm not too keen on it being published in such a poor editorial state

  125. Tobias

    yeah...it looks highly unfinished

  126. Kev

    Block it if you think it should be blocked.

  127. MattJ

    I have every confidence it will be remedied though, so...

  128. MattJ

    Fine, -1 from me :)

  129. Tobias

    -1 from me too

  130. MattJ

    I'm sure it'll look better next week

  131. linuxwolf


  132. Kev

    I'll just remember it next time someone submits a protoXEP :)

  133. MattJ

    Naturally :)

  134. Tobias


  135. MattJ

    I'll just set up my own standards foundation

  136. Kev

    Very sensible.

  137. linuxwolf


  138. MattJ

    as long as I can borrow this one's board chair

  139. Kev

    5) DMUC3

  140. linuxwolf


  141. Ralph Meijer

    I believe the intent is clear, and yes it needs cleanup, but no I don't think that should hold it up

  142. Kev

    linuxwolf: What did you think we should discuss about this?

  143. Ralph Meijer

    that's what 'experimental' is for, imo

  144. MattJ

    All I can say about DMUC3 is that I want to see a discussion on it

  145. linuxwolf

    well, I wasn't sure if anyone would respond before this meeting, so now I'm not so sure (-:

  146. linuxwolf

    hopefully this kicks off said discussion of DMUCn vs FMUC vs ....

  147. Kev

    (Yes, I'd got it to the stage where I thought it fitted "not obviously wrong", so I submitted it, I can do further work and re-submit)

  148. MattJ

    Ralph Meijer, we've collectively blocked XEPs on editorial issues before now

  149. Ralph Meijer

    MattJ: right. The mail went to the standards list, I don't see much happening there yet. (on DMUC)

  150. Ralph Meijer

    MattJ: I know, but 'we' have different views than 'I'.

  151. Kev

    linuxwolf: So there's nothing you want to discuss here?

  152. Kev

    (i.e. it wasn't really for the agenda)

  153. linuxwolf

    if we want to resolve this, I think someone needs to be more proactive on collaboration (-:

  154. linuxwolf

    and by someone, I mean "preferably not me"

  155. linuxwolf


  156. Ralph Meijer

    MattJ: If you care to lookup my acceptance history, you will see that I usually lean towards 'accept'.

  157. MattJ

    I drafted an email to the list re. collaboration in the XSF, but considered it might be deemed too patronising

  158. Kev

    linuxwolf: I have on my list for the next week or so to make sure that someone (either me or someone else I can fob it off on in the office) updates FMUC to cover Wayne's points.

  159. Ralph Meijer

    MattJ: As I think that is a good starting point for discussion.

  160. MattJ

    Ralph Meijer, same here, but I don't think it's going to hurt this one waiting another week :)

  161. Ralph Meijer

    MattJ: The dmuc stuff is an exception because of the overlap.

  162. linuxwolf

    Kev: cool

  163. Kev

    So, what goes in the minutes for DMUC3. I think we essentially decided not to discuss it.

  164. linuxwolf

    "Kevin Smith to follow up with FMUC updates"

  165. Kev

    6) Date of next meeting.

  166. linuxwolf


  167. Kev

    Next Tue I'm having my 'net connection faffed with, so I may well be offline.

  168. Ralph Meijer

    Kev: yeah, I don't see this as a discussable thing now.

  169. Ralph Meijer

    actually, this timeslot doesn't work nicely for me

  170. linuxwolf


  171. Tobias

    i'm quite flexible when it comes to a timeslot next week

  172. Kev

    Is anyone not able to do the old timeslot next week?

  173. Kev

    Wednesday, 1600GMT.

  174. Ralph Meijer

    I loved the old one

  175. stpeter


  176. stpeter

    old and new both work for me

  177. linuxwolf

    Ralph Meijer: the old one is oft inconvenient to me, but not unattainable (-:

  178. Ralph Meijer


  179. Kev

    linuxwolf: Is it doable next week?

  180. Ralph Meijer

    I work a lot evenings these days :-)

  181. linuxwolf

    that said, 2012-01-18T16:00Z is acceptable (-:

  182. Kev

    If we decide on next week now, we can discuss a general time onlist.

  183. Kev

    MattJ / Tobias: ?

  184. Ralph Meijer


  185. MattJ


  186. linuxwolf

    16:00Z is 09:00-07:00, which is about 30 minutes before I get sucked into meetings

  187. Tobias

    yeha..let's discuss general time on list

  188. Tobias

    but 2012-01-18T16:00Z should work on the first look

  189. stpeter

    shall I request XEP-0077 2.4rc1 for next week?

  190. stpeter

    (no hurry on it)

  191. linuxwolf

    I dunno … we're tentatively scheduled for XEP-0045 (-:

  192. stpeter


  193. Kev

    stpeter: Right, sorry, we ran out of time :)

  194. stpeter

    Kev: no worries

  195. Kev

    We're over 30minutes now!

  196. MattJ


  197. stpeter


  198. Kev

    7) Any other business.

  199. MattJ

    None here

  200. linuxwolf


  201. Kev

    Ok, thanks.

  202. Kev

    All done then.

  203. Kev bangs the gavel.

  204. MattJ


  205. Tobias


  206. Kev

    We don't have room logs back yet, right MattJ?

  207. MattJ


  208. Ralph Meijer sads

  209. MattJ

    A deadline I was working towards passed yesterday, I'm hoping to start catching up with normal things now

  210. Astro

    did the deadline make a «swoosh» when it passed by? ;-)

  211. stpeter laughs

  212. linuxwolf

    was the deadline a train (swoosh) or a bullet (zing)? (-:

  213. MattJ

    Amazingly I'd everything ready 10 minutes early :)

  214. stpeter

    Kev: thanks for the quick minutes

  215. Ralph Meijer

    hehe, that reminds me of Zaagmans: http://www.dwotd.nl/2009/11/675-zagen.html

  216. Ralph Meijer

    (at 'Extra')

  217. Kev

    stpeter: I wrote them as we met, for a change.

  218. stpeter

    good thinking :)

  219. stpeter


  220. Kev

    Remember everyone, we need new blurbs for the Council page on xmpp.org.

  221. linuxwolf

    "Matt has been involved with the Jabber community since late 2000, has been a member of the XSF since its inception in 2001, and has previously served on the 2003-04, 2004-05, 2005-06, and 2010-2011 Councils. Matt is a senior engineer and architect of XMPP client libraries for Cisco, Inc. and was previously a Professional Services Engineer and client developer for Jabber, Inc."

  222. Kev

    Updated, merci.

  223. louiz’

    de rien

  224. stpeter books his flights to Brussels

  225. linuxwolf ponders a reply to DANE

  226. stpeter has already replied

  227. linuxwolf hoped as much

  228. stpeter isn't feeling so well and is hoping that lunch might help

  229. linuxwolf notes that a season illness has been making the rounds in the office

  230. stpeter wonders what the record is for the number of consecutive groupchat messages beginning with '/me'

  231. linuxwolf recalls an time period greater than 2 hours where the jdev chatroom was nothing but /me

  232. stpeter thinks that processing ProtoXEPs and XEP patches is a good activity to complete in his woozy state of mind

  233. Zash whispers MAM

  234. stpeter

    the next Council meeting is 7 days from today, or 8 days from today?

  235. linuxwolf

    8? … 2011-01-18T16:00:00Z

  236. stpeter


  237. stpeter

    just verifying

  238. stpeter

    I might as well update the calendar while I'm doing XEP stuff

  239. linuxwolf

    apparently I can only deal with absolutes

  240. linuxwolf


  241. linuxwolf


  242. stpeter

    linuxwolf: sure thing!

  243. stpeter

    linuxwolf: I notice that I never processed your patch about the council note, I'm happy to do that now, too

  244. linuxwolf

    oh, really?

  245. stpeter

    it arrived not long before the winter holidays

  246. linuxwolf

    well, since there was no objections, that would be great

  247. stpeter


  248. linuxwolf

    I already lost my local copy of it

  249. stpeter


  250. Kev

    Sorry, I vaguely recall seeing that and put off processing it for some reason.

  251. Kev

    Inbox zero has 168 threads in it at the moment (for my personal account).

  252. linuxwolf

    well, it was delivered rather close to the holidays

  253. Kev

    I should take a day of holiday to sort out my inbox. Problem being that if I have a day of holiday, sorting my inbox is one of the last things I'd want to do with it.

  254. linuxwolf


  255. Kev

    Heh. Did you just publish MUC Fast Reconnect Peter? :)

  256. linuxwolf

    I thought MattJ and Tobias were −1 to publishing MFR?

  257. Kev ^5s linuxwolf

  258. stpeter


  259. stpeter


  260. linuxwolf

    HA! Proof that stpeter is a human being!

  261. linuxwolf


  262. Kev

    Nevermind. I'll sort it out tomorrow, I expect.

  263. Kev

    linuxwolf: I don't see why that follows.

  264. stpeter

    oh we've got plenty of evidence of that :P

  265. stpeter

    I make plenty of mistakes

  266. linuxwolf

    mostly because he's treated as infallible around the office (-:

  267. linuxwolf

    at least by some

  268. stpeter

    they're wrong!

  269. linuxwolf


  270. stpeter

    I think I might leave the office early today so I can prep for my conference call at 17:00...

  271. Kev

    Go home get rest.

  272. linuxwolf

    your boss is out-of-town … play hooky!

  273. stpeter


  274. stpeter

    linuxwolf: I can invite you to join this IRI design team call at 5 if you'd like :)

  275. linuxwolf

    uh no.

  276. linuxwolf

    Wait, let me think- no

  277. linuxwolf

    your term is up at the end of March, right?

  278. stpeter


  279. linuxwolf is preferring the mobile-version over the desktop-version of websites lately

  280. stpeter


  281. stpeter

    I optimized my personal website for mobile recently

  282. linuxwolf

    good for you

  283. stpeter

    desktop versions are too cluttered

  284. linuxwolf

    by far

  285. stpeter

    of course, I busted all my feeds when I did that ;-)

  286. linuxwolf

    and the mobile versions are just as capable

  287. linuxwolf


  288. stpeter makes a note to check out http://freedomboxfoundation.org/ later today

  289. linuxwolf


  290. linuxwolf adds a bookmark

  291. MattJ

    Guess which XMPP server they're planning on using

  292. linuxwolf


  293. linuxwolf ducks

  294. linuxwolf

    that's great

  295. stpeter


  296. MattJ


  297. MattJ

    I was watching one of their talks

  298. stpeter


  299. stpeter

    nothing like being on the cutting edge

  300. MattJ

    and he said they were planning on using "pro-soh-dee"

  301. linuxwolf


  302. MattJ

    It was the first time I'd heard it pronounced *that* way

  303. MattJ

    It took me a rewind and a minute to be sure I hadn't misheard

  304. linuxwolf thinks of how he pronounces it

  305. stpeter

    vs. pro-zoh-dee?

  306. linuxwolf


  307. linuxwolf


  308. MattJ

    I never knew there were so many ways to say it

  309. linuxwolf


  310. MattJ

    or spell it, for that matter

  311. Zash


  312. linuxwolf

    you'll have to add an official pronunciation MP3 to prosody.im (_:

  313. Zash

    Wasn't there one already?

  314. MattJ

    There is

  315. linuxwolf


  316. linuxwolf


  317. MattJ

    Really :)

  318. Zash


  319. Zash


  320. MattJ


  321. Zash

    not mp3 ;)

  322. linuxwolf

    there's no link on the mainpage, or the FAQ

  323. MattJ

    It's not an FAQ :P

  324. MattJ

    People just assume they're right

  325. linuxwolf

    "How do you pronounce 'prosody'?"

  326. linuxwolf

    "How do you pronounce 'prosody'?"

  327. linuxwolf

    "How do you pronounce 'prosody'?"

  328. linuxwolf

    "How do you pronounce 'prosody'?"

  329. linuxwolf

    "How do you pronounce 'prosody'?"

  330. MattJ

    and to be honest, I don't really care how people say it...

  331. linuxwolf

    "How do you pronounce 'prosody'?"

  332. linuxwolf

    "How do you pronounce 'prosody'?"

  333. linuxwolf

    "How do you pronounce 'prosody'?"

  334. linuxwolf

    "How do you pronounce 'prosody'?"

  335. MattJ


  336. Zash


  337. linuxwolf


  338. linuxwolf

    now there's a meme we can start at the XMPP Summits!

  339. linuxwolf

    "How do you pronounce <insert-project-name>?"

  340. louiz’

    “pro” “zo” “dee”

  341. stpeter

    well, it comes from Greek προσῳδία and σ in Greek is "ess"

  342. Zash

    The what

  343. Zash

    linuxwolf: *approval*

  344. MattJ

    Therefore I bow to stpeter's pronunciation of Prosody

  345. Zash submits formal request for 'peter-saint-andre-says-prosody.ogg'

  346. stpeter

    I just like an excuse to use Greek letters :)

  347. louiz’


  348. louiz’

    +1 Zash

  349. Ralph Meijer

    "Ralph Meijer is the lead developer of several Jabber-related projects and services, including Wokkel <http://wokkel.ik.nu/> and the XMPP support in Twisted <http://www.twistedmatrix.com/>, the Idavoll <http://idavoll.ik.nu/> pubsub component, and Planet Jabber <http://planet.jabber.org/>. Ralph <http://ralphm.net/> has been member of the XMPP Council since 2004 and is a platform engineer for Mochi Media <http://www.mochimedia.com/>."

  350. ralphm

    Also "zimpy" is my favorite.

  351. Kev

    Updated, ta.

  352. Ralph Meijer

    Kev: there should be a space in front of 'Wokkel'

  353. Tobias

    "Tobias Markmann is an occaisonal contributer to various XMPP projects including <a href="http://prosody.im/>Prosody</a> and <a href="http://swift.im/">Swift</a>. He has also initiated the <a href="http://code.google.com/p/xmppench/">xmppench</a> project, a XMPP server benchmark tool. Tobias joined the XMPP Council late 2011.<br/> His blog can be found at <a href="http://ayena.de/">ayena.de</a>."

  354. Tobias

    Kev, how is this for starters? ^^

  355. Ralph Meijer


  356. Ralph Meijer


  357. Tobias


  358. Tobias

    aside from tons of typos..i shouldn't write such things that late

  359. Tobias


  360. Ralph Meijer


  361. linuxwolf