XMPP Council - 2012-01-10

  1. Tobias has left

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  13. Kev

    Council in 56 minutes, by my count.

  14. Tobias


  15. Tobias

    Kev, do you plan more error info tags like <server-unavailable/> in psa?

  16. Tobias

    or are those supposed to be the standard ones from the RFC?

  17. stpeter has joined

  18. Kev

    Those are the only two I'd anticipated. They're not explicitly mappet other ones.

  19. Tobias has joined

  20. stpeter

    posted a microblog about the meeting

  21. Kev

    So I see :)

  22. stpeter


  23. stpeter

    I'll ping linuxwolf IRL

  24. stpeter

    Matthew appears to be online

  25. stpeter

    Ralph is auto-away

  26. stpeter

    BTW http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xmpp-council/ is out of date :)

  27. stpeter


  28. Kev

    So it is.

  29. Kev

    Tobias: Please provide some text for your blurb.

  30. linuxwolf has joined

  31. Steffen Larsen has joined

  32. Tobias

    for my what?

  33. Kev

    blurb |blərb| noun a short description of a book, movie, or other product written for promotional purposes and appearing on the cover of a book or in an advertisement.

  34. Tobias


  35. Zash has joined

  36. stpeter

    Matthew said he's joining

  37. stpeter

    pinged Ralph as well

  38. Kev

    I'd already pinged both.

  39. stpeter


  40. stpeter

    in stereo!

  41. MattJ has joined

  42. MattJ

    btw, when's the next board meeting?

  43. Kev

    Have I really been Chair for four terms now?

  44. Kev

    I'm surprised it's that long without someone kicking me out.

  45. MattJ

    Quite possibly

  46. stpeter

    Kev: I think so :)

  47. stpeter might stand for Council next time :)

  48. MattJ


  49. stpeter

    MattJ: should be tomorrow at 16:30 UTC, I pinged the board list about that earlier today

  50. stpeter updates the calendar

  51. Kev


  52. Kev

    I've updated http://xmpp.org/about-xmpp/xsf/xmpp-council/ slightly.

  53. Kev

    Please all check your blurbs and send in as appropriate.

  54. Kev

    Or edit yourself if you have the powers.

  55. Kev

    Onto the meeting:

  56. Kev

    1) Roll call

  57. Kev

    I'm here.

  58. stpeter

    thanks, Kev

  59. linuxwolf


  60. Kev

    MattJ / Tobias?

  61. MattJ


  62. Tobias


  63. Kev

    2) http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/network.html Accept as XEP?

  64. MattJ


  65. linuxwolf


  66. Kev

    I read this, and I have only one significant complaint with it - I don't see why it requires the aggregator to be a server, it seems a task that could very well be performed by a bot or component.

  67. Tobias


  68. MattJ

    It's a good point

  69. Kev

    Tobias: Was that +1 to my comment, or to publishing?

  70. Tobias

    publishing on network xep

  71. stpeter

    Kev: true

  72. Kev

    I don't think it's a big enough point to block publication on, mind, but I think I'd rather see it addressed at some point.

  73. Kev

    I'm happy to publish.

  74. Ralph Meijer has joined

  75. Ralph Meijer


  76. Kev

    3) http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/psa.html Accept as XEP?

  77. Kev

    Hi Ralph.

  78. Ralph Meijer

    +1 on 2)

  79. Kev


  80. MattJ

    +0 on 1) :)

  81. Ralph Meijer

    Kev: fwif, I don't see the difference between a server and a component, from the protocol point of view

  82. linuxwolf


  83. Kev

    Ralph Meijer: There isn't one, to the outside world.

  84. MattJ looks to see if PSA has changed since he saw it last

  85. MattJ

    and are the initials purely coincidental? :)

  86. Kev

    MattJ: I don't think so. Certainly not materially.

  87. Kev

    No, it was a backronym. Someone at Isode has a 'great' sense of humour.

  88. linuxwolf

    gee, I wonder who

  89. MattJ

    No idea

  90. MattJ

    I'm going to lose sleep over this one

  91. linuxwolf

    also, good use of 'quotes'

  92. Kev

    I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to guess which Chair of the Board that is.

  93. Ralph Meijer


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  95. Ralph Meijer

    MattJ: really?

  96. MattJ

    Ralph Meijer, no :P

  97. MattJ

    So, +1

  98. linuxwolf

    anyhow…I've no objections to accepting as a XEP, provided "urn:xmpp:psa" is changed to "urn:xmpp:psa:0"

  99. Ralph Meijer

    +1, and what lw says

  100. louiz’ has joined

  101. Kev

    I realised that when writing MFR, and then forgot to go back and change it, thanks.

  102. linuxwolf

    which is very minor, and probably something the XEP editor catches (-:

  103. Kev


  104. Tobias

    yup...+1 from me on psa

  105. Kev

    4) http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/fastmuc.html Accept as XEP?

  106. Tobias

    looks sensible the way it is

  107. linuxwolf

    this one needs consistency work

  108. Kev

    Where, and before or after publication?

  109. linuxwolf

    this time, I would prefer before publication

  110. MattJ

    Typo in ns

  111. linuxwolf

    at least, pick a namespace (-:

  112. linuxwolf

    s/pick a namespace/pick one namespace/

  113. Kev

    Oh, just a namespace typo?

  114. linuxwolf

    there are areas I think are vague, but I think can be addressed after publication

  115. Ralph Meijer

    so that is a −1 for consistency?

  116. linuxwolf

    I didn't get a chance to send a comment about that before now, and am willing to wait until publication

  117. Tobias

    and the "I've just stopped writing"

  118. MattJ

    I think I'm +0 on this, until it's more fleshed out

  119. Kev

    I don't immediately see the namespace typo - can you point it out, please?

  120. MattJ


  121. linuxwolf

    is it "urn:xmpp:mfr" or "urn:xmpp:presence-session:0"?

  122. linuxwolf

    or urn:xmpp:pressence-session:0"

  123. Kev


  124. Kev

    mfr is the disco feature, rather than the namespace.

  125. linuxwolf mentally reduced the "ss" to "s", rather than ß

  126. linuxwolf

    is there a good reason to define a separate disco feature from the namespace?

  127. Kev

    There was a reason, but maybe it's not a good one.

  128. linuxwolf

    I'm not immediately seeing it from this draft

  129. Kev

    Someone could decide to use the same protocol for restablishing presence in other situations - such as after a client reconnect.

  130. Kev

    But no, probably not.

  131. linuxwolf

    in theory, we could have other protocols that act in a similar manner to MUC, but then shouldn't we make this more generic sooner rather than later?

  132. Kev

    Fixed in Git, everything's now urn:xmpp:presence-session:0

  133. linuxwolf

    and "MFR" is an application of the more-generic

  134. linuxwolf


  135. Kev

    I think it's generic at the moment.

  136. Ralph Meijer

    I'm +1 on publishing

  137. Kev

    That is - the protocol is generic at the moment, but the described use case isn't.

  138. linuxwolf


  139. Kev

    I didn't want to open the rabbit hole of trying to do fast client reconnect with presence restablishment right now, but wrote the protocol such that we could in the future.

  140. linuxwolf

    it does need fleshing out … but I'll not object to publishing on that account

  141. Kev

    In which case, I think we'd extract the normative bits into another XEP, and reference that. It wouldn't affect implementations.

  142. linuxwolf


  143. stpeter


  144. Kev

    So, I *think* that's no objection from M/M/R. Tobias?

  145. MattJ

    It's no objection, but I'm not too keen on it being published in such a poor editorial state

  146. Tobias

    yeah...it looks highly unfinished

  147. Kev

    Block it if you think it should be blocked.

  148. MattJ

    I have every confidence it will be remedied though, so...

  149. MattJ

    Fine, -1 from me :)

  150. Tobias

    -1 from me too

  151. MattJ

    I'm sure it'll look better next week

  152. linuxwolf


  153. Kev

    I'll just remember it next time someone submits a protoXEP :)

  154. MattJ

    Naturally :)

  155. Tobias


  156. MattJ

    I'll just set up my own standards foundation

  157. Kev

    Very sensible.

  158. linuxwolf


  159. MattJ

    as long as I can borrow this one's board chair

  160. Kev

    5) DMUC3

  161. linuxwolf


  162. Ralph Meijer

    I believe the intent is clear, and yes it needs cleanup, but no I don't think that should hold it up

  163. Kev

    linuxwolf: What did you think we should discuss about this?

  164. Ralph Meijer

    that's what 'experimental' is for, imo

  165. MattJ

    All I can say about DMUC3 is that I want to see a discussion on it

  166. linuxwolf

    well, I wasn't sure if anyone would respond before this meeting, so now I'm not so sure (-:

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  168. linuxwolf

    hopefully this kicks off said discussion of DMUCn vs FMUC vs ....

  169. Kev

    (Yes, I'd got it to the stage where I thought it fitted "not obviously wrong", so I submitted it, I can do further work and re-submit)

  170. MattJ

    Ralph Meijer, we've collectively blocked XEPs on editorial issues before now

  171. Ralph Meijer

    MattJ: right. The mail went to the standards list, I don't see much happening there yet. (on DMUC)

  172. Ralph Meijer

    MattJ: I know, but 'we' have different views than 'I'.

  173. Kev

    linuxwolf: So there's nothing you want to discuss here?

  174. Steffen Larsen has left

  175. Kev

    (i.e. it wasn't really for the agenda)

  176. linuxwolf

    if we want to resolve this, I think someone needs to be more proactive on collaboration (-:

  177. linuxwolf

    and by someone, I mean "preferably not me"

  178. linuxwolf


  179. Ralph Meijer

    MattJ: If you care to lookup my acceptance history, you will see that I usually lean towards 'accept'.

  180. MattJ

    I drafted an email to the list re. collaboration in the XSF, but considered it might be deemed too patronising

  181. Kev

    linuxwolf: I have on my list for the next week or so to make sure that someone (either me or someone else I can fob it off on in the office) updates FMUC to cover Wayne's points.

  182. Ralph Meijer

    MattJ: As I think that is a good starting point for discussion.

  183. MattJ

    Ralph Meijer, same here, but I don't think it's going to hurt this one waiting another week :)

  184. Ralph Meijer

    MattJ: The dmuc stuff is an exception because of the overlap.

  185. linuxwolf

    Kev: cool

  186. Kev

    So, what goes in the minutes for DMUC3. I think we essentially decided not to discuss it.

  187. linuxwolf

    "Kevin Smith to follow up with FMUC updates"

  188. Kev

    6) Date of next meeting.

  189. linuxwolf


  190. Kev

    Next Tue I'm having my 'net connection faffed with, so I may well be offline.

  191. Ralph Meijer

    Kev: yeah, I don't see this as a discussable thing now.

  192. Ralph Meijer

    actually, this timeslot doesn't work nicely for me

  193. linuxwolf


  194. Tobias

    i'm quite flexible when it comes to a timeslot next week

  195. Kev

    Is anyone not able to do the old timeslot next week?

  196. Kev

    Wednesday, 1600GMT.

  197. Ralph Meijer

    I loved the old one

  198. stpeter


  199. stpeter

    old and new both work for me

  200. linuxwolf

    Ralph Meijer: the old one is oft inconvenient to me, but not unattainable (-:

  201. Ralph Meijer


  202. Kev

    linuxwolf: Is it doable next week?

  203. Ralph Meijer

    I work a lot evenings these days :-)

  204. linuxwolf

    that said, 2012-01-18T16:00Z is acceptable (-:

  205. Kev

    If we decide on next week now, we can discuss a general time onlist.

  206. Kev

    MattJ / Tobias: ?

  207. Ralph Meijer


  208. MattJ


  209. linuxwolf

    16:00Z is 09:00-07:00, which is about 30 minutes before I get sucked into meetings

  210. Tobias

    yeha..let's discuss general time on list

  211. Tobias

    but 2012-01-18T16:00Z should work on the first look

  212. stpeter

    shall I request XEP-0077 2.4rc1 for next week?

  213. stpeter

    (no hurry on it)

  214. linuxwolf

    I dunno … we're tentatively scheduled for XEP-0045 (-:

  215. stpeter


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  217. Kev

    stpeter: Right, sorry, we ran out of time :)

  218. stpeter

    Kev: no worries

  219. Kev

    We're over 30minutes now!

  220. MattJ


  221. stpeter


  222. Kev

    7) Any other business.

  223. MattJ

    None here

  224. linuxwolf


  225. Kev

    Ok, thanks.

  226. Kev

    All done then.

  227. Kev bangs the gavel.

  228. MattJ


  229. Tobias


  230. Kev

    We don't have room logs back yet, right MattJ?

  231. MattJ


  232. Ralph Meijer sads

  233. MattJ

    A deadline I was working towards passed yesterday, I'm hoping to start catching up with normal things now

  234. Astro

    did the deadline make a «swoosh» when it passed by? ;-)

  235. stpeter laughs

  236. linuxwolf

    was the deadline a train (swoosh) or a bullet (zing)? (-:

  237. MattJ

    Amazingly I'd everything ready 10 minutes early :)

  238. Zash has joined

  239. stpeter

    Kev: thanks for the quick minutes

  240. Ralph Meijer

    hehe, that reminds me of Zaagmans: http://www.dwotd.nl/2009/11/675-zagen.html

  241. Ralph Meijer

    (at 'Extra')

  242. Kev

    stpeter: I wrote them as we met, for a change.

  243. stpeter

    good thinking :)

  244. stpeter


  245. Astro has left

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  247. Kev

    Remember everyone, we need new blurbs for the Council page on xmpp.org.

  248. linuxwolf

    "Matt has been involved with the Jabber community since late 2000, has been a member of the XSF since its inception in 2001, and has previously served on the 2003-04, 2004-05, 2005-06, and 2010-2011 Councils. Matt is a senior engineer and architect of XMPP client libraries for Cisco, Inc. and was previously a Professional Services Engineer and client developer for Jabber, Inc."

  249. linuxwolf has left

  250. Kev

    Updated, merci.

  251. louiz’

    de rien

  252. stpeter books his flights to Brussels

  253. linuxwolf has joined

  254. linuxwolf ponders a reply to DANE

  255. stpeter has already replied

  256. linuxwolf hoped as much

  257. stpeter isn't feeling so well and is hoping that lunch might help

  258. linuxwolf notes that a season illness has been making the rounds in the office

  259. stpeter wonders what the record is for the number of consecutive groupchat messages beginning with '/me'

  260. linuxwolf recalls an time period greater than 2 hours where the jdev chatroom was nothing but /me

  261. stpeter thinks that processing ProtoXEPs and XEP patches is a good activity to complete in his woozy state of mind

  262. Zash whispers MAM

  263. stpeter

    the next Council meeting is 7 days from today, or 8 days from today?

  264. linuxwolf

    8? … 2011-01-18T16:00:00Z

  265. stpeter


  266. stpeter

    just verifying

  267. stpeter

    I might as well update the calendar while I'm doing XEP stuff

  268. linuxwolf

    apparently I can only deal with absolutes

  269. linuxwolf


  270. linuxwolf


  271. stpeter

    linuxwolf: sure thing!

  272. stpeter

    linuxwolf: I notice that I never processed your patch about the council note, I'm happy to do that now, too

  273. linuxwolf

    oh, really?

  274. stpeter

    it arrived not long before the winter holidays

  275. linuxwolf

    well, since there was no objections, that would be great

  276. stpeter


  277. linuxwolf

    I already lost my local copy of it

  278. stpeter


  279. Kev

    Sorry, I vaguely recall seeing that and put off processing it for some reason.

  280. Kev

    Inbox zero has 168 threads in it at the moment (for my personal account).

  281. linuxwolf

    well, it was delivered rather close to the holidays

  282. Kev

    I should take a day of holiday to sort out my inbox. Problem being that if I have a day of holiday, sorting my inbox is one of the last things I'd want to do with it.

  283. linuxwolf


  284. Kev

    Heh. Did you just publish MUC Fast Reconnect Peter? :)

  285. linuxwolf

    I thought MattJ and Tobias were −1 to publishing MFR?

  286. Kev ^5s linuxwolf

  287. stpeter


  288. stpeter


  289. linuxwolf

    HA! Proof that stpeter is a human being!

  290. linuxwolf


  291. Kev

    Nevermind. I'll sort it out tomorrow, I expect.

  292. Kev

    linuxwolf: I don't see why that follows.

  293. stpeter

    oh we've got plenty of evidence of that :P

  294. stpeter

    I make plenty of mistakes

  295. linuxwolf

    mostly because he's treated as infallible around the office (-:

  296. linuxwolf

    at least by some

  297. stpeter

    they're wrong!

  298. linuxwolf


  299. stpeter

    I think I might leave the office early today so I can prep for my conference call at 17:00...

  300. Kev

    Go home get rest.

  301. linuxwolf

    your boss is out-of-town … play hooky!

  302. stpeter


  303. stpeter

    linuxwolf: I can invite you to join this IRI design team call at 5 if you'd like :)

  304. linuxwolf

    uh no.

  305. linuxwolf

    Wait, let me think- no

  306. linuxwolf

    your term is up at the end of March, right?

  307. stpeter


  308. linuxwolf is preferring the mobile-version over the desktop-version of websites lately

  309. stpeter


  310. stpeter

    I optimized my personal website for mobile recently

  311. linuxwolf

    good for you

  312. stpeter

    desktop versions are too cluttered

  313. linuxwolf

    by far

  314. stpeter

    of course, I busted all my feeds when I did that ;-)

  315. linuxwolf

    and the mobile versions are just as capable

  316. linuxwolf


  317. stpeter makes a note to check out http://freedomboxfoundation.org/ later today

  318. linuxwolf


  319. linuxwolf adds a bookmark

  320. MattJ

    Guess which XMPP server they're planning on using

  321. linuxwolf


  322. linuxwolf ducks

  323. linuxwolf

    that's great

  324. stpeter


  325. MattJ


  326. MattJ

    I was watching one of their talks

  327. stpeter


  328. stpeter

    nothing like being on the cutting edge

  329. MattJ

    and he said they were planning on using "pro-soh-dee"

  330. linuxwolf


  331. MattJ

    It was the first time I'd heard it pronounced *that* way

  332. MattJ

    It took me a rewind and a minute to be sure I hadn't misheard

  333. linuxwolf thinks of how he pronounces it

  334. stpeter

    vs. pro-zoh-dee?

  335. linuxwolf


  336. linuxwolf


  337. MattJ

    I never knew there were so many ways to say it

  338. linuxwolf


  339. MattJ

    or spell it, for that matter

  340. Zash


  341. linuxwolf

    you'll have to add an official pronunciation MP3 to prosody.im (_:

  342. Zash

    Wasn't there one already?

  343. MattJ

    There is

  344. linuxwolf


  345. linuxwolf


  346. MattJ

    Really :)

  347. Zash


  348. Zash


  349. MattJ


  350. Zash

    not mp3 ;)

  351. linuxwolf

    there's no link on the mainpage, or the FAQ

  352. MattJ

    It's not an FAQ :P

  353. MattJ

    People just assume they're right

  354. linuxwolf

    "How do you pronounce 'prosody'?"

  355. linuxwolf

    "How do you pronounce 'prosody'?"

  356. linuxwolf

    "How do you pronounce 'prosody'?"

  357. linuxwolf

    "How do you pronounce 'prosody'?"

  358. linuxwolf

    "How do you pronounce 'prosody'?"

  359. MattJ

    and to be honest, I don't really care how people say it...

  360. linuxwolf

    "How do you pronounce 'prosody'?"

  361. linuxwolf

    "How do you pronounce 'prosody'?"

  362. linuxwolf

    "How do you pronounce 'prosody'?"

  363. linuxwolf

    "How do you pronounce 'prosody'?"

  364. MattJ


  365. Zash


  366. linuxwolf


  367. linuxwolf

    now there's a meme we can start at the XMPP Summits!

  368. linuxwolf

    "How do you pronounce <insert-project-name>?"

  369. louiz’

    “pro” “zo” “dee”

  370. stpeter

    well, it comes from Greek προσῳδία and σ in Greek is "ess"

  371. Zash

    The what

  372. Tobias has joined

  373. Zash

    linuxwolf: *approval*

  374. MattJ

    Therefore I bow to stpeter's pronunciation of Prosody

  375. Zash submits formal request for 'peter-saint-andre-says-prosody.ogg'

  376. stpeter

    I just like an excuse to use Greek letters :)

  377. louiz’


  378. louiz’

    +1 Zash

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  382. Ralph Meijer

    "Ralph Meijer is the lead developer of several Jabber-related projects and services, including Wokkel <http://wokkel.ik.nu/> and the XMPP support in Twisted <http://www.twistedmatrix.com/>, the Idavoll <http://idavoll.ik.nu/> pubsub component, and Planet Jabber <http://planet.jabber.org/>. Ralph <http://ralphm.net/> has been member of the XMPP Council since 2004 and is a platform engineer for Mochi Media <http://www.mochimedia.com/>."

  383. ralphm has joined

  384. ralphm

    Also "zimpy" is my favorite.

  385. Kev

    Updated, ta.

  386. Zash has joined

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  389. Ralph Meijer

    Kev: there should be a space in front of 'Wokkel'

  390. Zash has joined

  391. Tobias

    "Tobias Markmann is an occaisonal contributer to various XMPP projects including <a href="http://prosody.im/>Prosody</a> and <a href="http://swift.im/">Swift</a>. He has also initiated the <a href="http://code.google.com/p/xmppench/">xmppench</a> project, a XMPP server benchmark tool. Tobias joined the XMPP Council late 2011.<br/> His blog can be found at <a href="http://ayena.de/">ayena.de</a>."

  392. Tobias

    Kev, how is this for starters? ^^

  393. Ralph Meijer


  394. Ralph Meijer


  395. Tobias


  396. Tobias

    aside from tons of typos..i shouldn't write such things that late

  397. Tobias


  398. Ralph Meijer


  399. linuxwolf


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