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Kev
I only set aside 2 1/2 hours for reviewing MUC changes. At my current rate of progress, this was a bad move.
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linuxwolf
yes, yes it was
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linuxwolf
I should know, I did the same
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linuxwolf
at least I don't have wikipedia and cheezburgers to distract me today
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linuxwolf
(-:
- MattJ laughs at you all
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linuxwolf
well, I'm halfway through now
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linuxwolf
since my 2.5 hours started yesterday d-:
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Kev
Taking phone calls can only help my progress :)
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Kev
I reckon I'm at least 15% through now.
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Kev
So at this rate I should finish...
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Kev
no, that's wrong. I shouldn't.
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Tobias
yeah..we should set a limit on the size of a diff between two versions ^^
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Kev
I've already decided there's bits in here I don't think should be, so maybe I should just -1 and forget about reading the rest :D
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Kev
Oooh, extending our use of 2119 in XEPs? I don't think I've noticed us use SHALL instead of MUST before.
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linuxwolf
this is the first I can recall
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MattJ
I'm not sure it's the first, unless I'm thinking of the RFCs
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Kev
22 minutes to go, and I'm about 40% through. I'm sure it's about to get easier...
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Kev
50%!
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Kev
Tearing through now.
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stpeter
we can always delay consideration again :)
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Kev
Well, we've got a fortnight to vote on list anyway.
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Kev
Just looks like I'll need to take advantage of it.
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stpeter
oh true
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linuxwolf
(-:
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Kev
(I'd forgotten it was 1600 and not 1700 today, in truth, which knocked my plan out a little)
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Kev
Right, it's time.
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Kev
I've poked Ralph.
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Kev
1) Roll call
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Tobias
so..i'm here
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Kev
I'm here.
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linuxwolf
presente
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Kev
MattJ: ?
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MattJ
Present
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Kev
2) http://xmpp.org/extensions/diff/api/xep/0045/diff/1.24/vs/1.25rc10 Accept 1.25?
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MattJ
+1
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linuxwolf
I found a typo in one of the examples, and I'm not sure *admin* is used consistently
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linuxwolf
typo: <item affiliation='outcast'> jid='lordscroop@shakespeare.lit'>
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Tobias
+1
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Tobias
although some bugs
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linuxwolf
should be: <item affiliation='outcast' jid='lordscroop@shakespeare.lit'>
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Kev
I have a significant gripe with 1.25, so far, in the use of occupants that don't send presence.
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Tobias
Reply XML NS doesn't match the one of the request. http://xmpp.org/extensions/diff/api/xep/0045/diff/1.24/vs/1.25rc10#added-diff-155 Limit history by characters. Why not by number of messages? http://xmpp.org/extensions/diff/api/xep/0045/diff/1.24/vs/1.25rc10#added-diff-422
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Kev
I know this is a feature that we want, but I'm not sure the problem is well-understood enough to put it in right now. Particularly, it seems to suggest you could have members that are sending messages but not being shown as occupants through presence, and this seems like something that could break clients (and *possibly* servers, although that's less clear).
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Tobias
.
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Kev
(I'm seeing if anyone responds to my comment)
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Kev
No-one has thoughts on this?
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MattJ
I don't mind it
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MattJ
No client I know of breaks
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linuxwolf
I know of at least one MUC implementation that is doing that today, and have not seen catastrophic consequences
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MattJ
bitlbee displays as "unknown occupant" or something
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stpeter
linuxwolf: typo fixed
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linuxwolf
a lot appear to just ignore those presences
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stpeter
Tobias: xmlns mismatch fixed
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Kev
linuxwolf: Is this in an Internetish environment? (i.e. is this being exposed to a large selection of clients)
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linuxwolf
it was at one point
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linuxwolf
I'm not sure if it still is
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linuxwolf
jabber.com
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Kev
If we have sufficient confidence that nothing's going to break with such a (seemingly, to me anyway) major change, I won't grumble too much.
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MattJ
I'm happy with it
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linuxwolf
I vaguely remember a version of OpenFire doing this, too … not sure it still does
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Tobias
i have no problem with it either
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Kev
I have another gripe about redefining 'room JID', especially given that we then continue to use the old definition.
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Kev
But I think the no-presence thing was my only material complaint about the first half of the document. I'll finish reviewing the second half and post my comments to standards@.
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linuxwolf
to be fair, I'm not sure I like the unavailable presence thing, either … but I'm not sure I don't like it (-:
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Kev
I'd like to -1 this right now, but I anticipate the required changes to be relatively minor before pushing 1.26.
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Kev
linuxwolf: By the 'unavailable presence thing', do you mean what I mentioned above, or something else?
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linuxwolf
you mean 1.25 (-:
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Kev
I mean 1.25rc11, yes.
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linuxwolf
hold on, I need to re-read
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linuxwolf
you might need to ignore that bit from me (-:
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linuxwolf
no, I meant the message without available presence … sometimes I intermingle unavailable with no avaiable (-:
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Kev
Ok, so that's the same thing I mentioned, then.
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Kev
I'd be much much happier if we said something like "You can have rooms where visitors don't broadcast presence", because that avoids ever receiving a message from someone that you don't receive presence from.
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Kev
(And I think this resolves all the use cases I've heard for this, but I could be wrong)
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Kev
But anyway.
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MattJ
I'd be happy with that too
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MattJ
I've used the <message>-with-no-<presence> thing a lot
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Kev
Do we need to discuss -45 any further here? I think everyone's +1 except me, who's -1 and will post a more complete review to standards@
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Kev
MattJ: In MUCs?
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MattJ
but I've always been aware it's somewhat abusing the spec
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MattJ
but nothing has ever broken, so I do it anyway
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Kev
Although I note that it's ok to send in messages from someone who's not an occupant, so maybe it's irrelevant.
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MattJ
so I'm not against it entering the XEP, but I'm happy either way - I can see some valid use-cases for it in general
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Kev
Ok, I withdraw that particular objection. But I'm still -1 pending some minor points, or being told they're wrong.
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MattJ
Sure
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linuxwolf
well, maybe it's moved to a secondary spec
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linuxwolf
gah
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linuxwolf
maybe it can be moved to a secondary spec
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Kev
linuxwolf: The problem is that moving to a secondary spec doesn't work, because it's the clients that *don't* support it that receive the unexpected messages.
- linuxwolf is distracted by a DANE flamewar
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linuxwolf
fair enough
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Kev
But it's true that the spec hasn't prohibited messages from people who truly aren't occupants, so it's immaterial - clients that don't cope were already buggy :)
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Kev
So moving ever so swiftly on.
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Kev
3) Date of next meeting.
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Kev
We should try and find a time that works for everyone.
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Kev
(and stick to it)
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linuxwolf
(-:
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Kev
Tobias: This slot is bad for you, usually, isn't it?
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Kev
linuxwolf: And sometimes bad for you?
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linuxwolf
this slot is just fine for me
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Tobias
nope..works fine
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linuxwolf
it's 1700 that's problematic
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MattJ
wfm
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Kev
Ok, great.
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Kev
So Wednesdays at 1600Z as a recurring date?
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Tobias
okay
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linuxwolf
wfm
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Kev
Lovely.
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Kev
4) Any other business?
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stpeter
Kev: I look forward to your more extensive comments on 45
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stpeter
shall I create a calendar entry for a meeting next week?
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Kev
Yes please :)
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stpeter
(and naturally we also need input from Ralph on 45)
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Kev
Right.
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Kev
Well, we don't, really.
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Kev
I mean - we do next time it comes to vote, but if anyone -1s, everyone else is irrelevant :)
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Tobias
k..so that's it?
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stpeter
Kev: (and naturally we would also love input from Ralph on 45)
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Kev
I don't see other business.
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Kev
stpeter: Yes, we would :)
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Kev
Ok, all done then.
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Tobias
nice...see you guys later or so
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Kev
Thanks all
- Kev bangs the gavel.
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linuxwolf
heh
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MattJ
Thanks :)
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linuxwolf
adios
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linuxwolf
sometimes I wonder if these people realize that DNS is not pure theory (-:
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stpeter
heh yeah
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