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Kev
Hi Ralph.
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Kev
I haven't even forgotten. Yet :)
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ralphm
heh
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ralphm
I was in a Zoo last week, so I did.
- stpeter notes that he neglected to run calgen.py until about an hour ago so the meeting might not be in your calendar
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linuxwolf
oopsie
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ralphm
yeah, that too (last week)
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Kev
Howdy folks.
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Kev
1) Bap call.
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Kev
I'm here.
- Tobias too
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linuxwolf
presente
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stpeter
Matthew seems to be offline
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ralphm
stpeter: I still don't see it
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Kev
Marrrrvellous.
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linuxwolf
his server seems to be gone
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linuxwolf
/-:
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Kev
2) http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/pubsub-since.html
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Kev
Accept as XEP?
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ralphm
+1
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linuxwolf
+1
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ralphm
I'd like to see an example of how it would work with RSM
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stpeter
ralphm: true
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Kev
I have serious reservations about this. Firstly that using a timestamp for this is broken, secondly that it says to use Last Activity In Presence, but doesn't cover what to do on non-initial presence, and thirdly that it says to use RSM but not how.
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MattJ
+1... but... timestamps.
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Tobias
+1
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stpeter
by "timestamps" do you mean UTC?
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ralphm
clock skew
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stpeter
instead of last presence?
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stpeter
I just used the format from iq:last
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Kev
So I think all of those should be addressed in some way. That can happen on the vine, although I don't like it.
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MattJ
Clock skew is my concern... giving 5 minutes' grace is fine, but then you possibly send duplicate updates
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Kev
We have systems like this already, and they're proven not to work.
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Tobias
Kev, what exactly has been proven not to work?
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Kev
Tobias: Using time-of-last-something as a way of resynchronising history. Swift does it for MUCs, and you frequently end up with duplicate notifications.
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ralphm
MattJ: true. This is only a problem with notifications that are idempotent. In some cases, they aren't, but I'm not sure if delayed delivery in those cases are proper anyway.
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ralphm
/not/ idempotent
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Tobias
Kev, ah..right
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Kev
You don't even need clock skew for things to go wrong. You can both have duplicates and missed notifications.
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ralphm
Kev: for MUCs it is a bigger problem because messages are not idempotent there
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Kev
(using pubsub-since)
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Kev
But anyway. It can go on the vine as everyone else is happy with this.
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ralphm
well, it is not an active standard yet
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Kev
I wouldn't push it to Draft in its current state, though.
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ralphm
I'm not against publishing
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linuxwolf
no one is asking to push it to draft yet
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Tobias
right..but all this can be fixed in Experimental state
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Kev
linuxwolf: No, but I'm giving a heads-up.
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Kev
3) Obsoleting 130.
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linuxwolf
Kev: just be sure to post to the list, too
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Kev
linuxwolf: Reasonable.
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ralphm
One could also argue that we are jumping through a lot of hoops to make automatic subscriptions work without the cooperation of your 'home' server. If you lose that constraint other solutions might be better.
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stpeter
ralphm: as in ask your home server to do the subscription for you?
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MattJ
+1 to -0130
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ralphm
stpeter: in one way or the other, yes. Then it could also just receive notifications in offline storage, for example.
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linuxwolf
also +1 to −0130
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Kev
I'd like to do a ~Last Call on standards@ for a few weeks to say "We'll obsolete this on the Xth March unless someone says it's in use".
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stpeter
Kev: for sure
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linuxwolf
of course
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Kev
stpeter: It wasn't clear to me how obsoleting this would affect your cleanup, though.
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Tobias
Kev, sounds like a good idea
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MattJ
linuxwolf, I like what you did there :)
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stpeter
Kev: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0172.html#waitlist
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Kev
Ah, I'd completely forgotten that was there.
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Kev
Fairy nerfs, then.
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ralphm
what is the necessity of obsoleting this specification?
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stpeter
ralphm: first, I'd like to clean up XEP-0172
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stpeter
ralphm: second, no one is using it
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stpeter
so it's cruft
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stpeter
we don't want people to come along and implement things that aren't in use and weren't such good ideas in the first place ;-)
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ralphm
Do other standards organizations do a similar thing?
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stpeter
sometimes, yes
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stpeter
but e.g. the IETF has a lot more cruft than we do
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ralphm
I'm just thinking aloud here, wether we should actively work to reduce the number of standards we have around, even if noone uses it anymore, as far as we know.
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stpeter
they had an effort to clean out the cruft some years ago and it was overwhelming
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linuxwolf
As long as the bar for cleaning up is very very high, I'm all for it
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Kev
The reference to 130 could easily be removed from 172 at least.
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linuxwolf
to the best of my knowledge, though, XEP-0130 didn't really solve the problem it set out to
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MattJ
Wait... how did it get to be historical?
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ralphm
jabber:iq:agents, maybe?
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stpeter
MattJ: because it documented a protocol in use at the time
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MattJ
Who used it?
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ralphm
anyway, I'm +1 in this case
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ralphm
Jabber Inc
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stpeter
MattJ: France Telecom
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MattJ
Ok
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ralphm
with France Telecom, right?
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linuxwolf
ralphm: correct
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stpeter
JINC had support for it in XCP, but that support is gone
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Kev
So we believe that the only people using it are now saying it's obsolete. That seems fine to me. Put out a ~Last Call and fine.
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stpeter
Kev: rightio
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Kev
4) The continuing shortification effort.
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Kev
stpeter: You wanted to further discuss this?
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stpeter
I didn't see people jumping up and down with excitement about my rough split of XEP-0045
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MattJ
Indeed
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Kev
I have it open in my browser, but haven't read it yet.
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linuxwolf
I haven't finished reading it yet
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stpeter
it's very rough, just to give a sense
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stpeter
perhaps it's not worth the effort
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linuxwolf
(well, I haven't started either (-: )
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MattJ
I think the difference is less marked with XEP-0045, since it doesn't have a lot of optional features like pubsub
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linuxwolf
/nod
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stpeter
MattJ: perhaps
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ralphm
I've looked at pubsub
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stpeter
MattJ: revising XEP-0060 is on my to-do list for Life After IESG™
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ralphm
Those many mandatory features are also tricky there
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ralphm
it is ongoing work, that I plan to take my time on
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Kev
I think it's much easier to split 60 than 45, but I'll give this split a read through.
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MattJ
stpeter, there is life after IESG??
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linuxwolf
stpeter: that should be a TV show (-:
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stpeter
Kev: all right
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stpeter
I haven't looked at 60
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Kev
One thought I had is that if we do split 45, we should leave 45 in place with a reference to all three subXEPs, saying "You MUST implement all of these".
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stpeter
will do in April, I think
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Kev
That way the function of -45 doesn't change, but people could support just XEP-0313 or whatever, if that's deemed useful. Although I'm not sure yet that it is.
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ralphm
Kev: that makes sense
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Kev
Is there more to discuss on this right now, or shall we move on?
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stpeter
move on
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Kev
5) Date of next meeting.
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ralphm
The same could go for XEP-0060, but I'm not that far to reach a conclusion on that yet.
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Kev
Same old story?
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linuxwolf
WFM
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ralphm
+1
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MattJ
wfm, though I'm terribly confused by all these changes :)
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MattJ
and the fact that there was a meeting last week with no agenda
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stpeter
heh
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MattJ
I can't keep up
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linuxwolf
(-:
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Kev
MattJ: I thought we could meet in case there was AOB.
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stpeter
what are the changes?
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MattJ
Aren't the meetings usually Tuesday?
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Kev
I was going to suggest we cancel, and then I realised that other people might come along with AOB for us and be horribly disappointed that we weren't here.
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Kev
No, Wednesday, have been for aages :)
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Tobias
+1 for same time
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stpeter
they've been Wednesday
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Kev
We did Tuesday for a brief while and then switched back.
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linuxwolf
we did a couple of Tuesdays because I'm a git
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MattJ
Well yes, it's been Wednesday forever
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MattJ
(as far back as my memory goes)
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MattJ
then we switch to Tuesday and I get used to it
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MattJ
as long as I can blame linuxwolf it's fine
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Kev
Ok, I'll assume we're on for SBTSBC then.
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Kev
6) AOB?
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ralphm
-
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MattJ
nack
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stpeter
calendar updated
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linuxwolf
nay
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Kev
Thanks Peter.
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Kev
Ok, then I think we're done.
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Kev
Thanks all.
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Kev
Fini.
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stpeter
BTW I shall fix up pubsub-since before publishing it
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linuxwolf
and 6 minutes to spare (-:
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Tobias
stpeter, btw any progress on the fosdem/summit recap for http://xmpp.org? anyway i could help?
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stpeter
oh yeah
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Kev
I'm applying for GSoC in between trying to get work done, BTW.
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Kev
Florian's helping with some stuff.
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Kev
We need to put out a call for ideas, once Florian's sorted out that page.
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MattJ
Thanks Kev, +1 to GSoC if people can manage it :)
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stpeter
Kev: are we working on the application via wiki or somesuch?
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Kev
I was going to try and find last year's, and mostly duplicate it.
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Kev
Do you want to help?
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stpeter
yes
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stpeter
although the mostly duplicate strategy sounds good
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stpeter
I'll need something to occupy my time in Life After IESG™
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Kev
Yees.
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ralphm
Hmm, I notice both XEP-0045 and XEP-0060 are still Draft.
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Tobias
yeah..we have just 11 final XEPs
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ralphm
right, the observation makes me less nervous about splitting stuff up.
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MattJ
Heh
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stpeter
I was hoping we could push 45 to final less than 10 years after it went to draft, but probably no such luck
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Zash
Criteria?
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Zash
"been in the Draft state for at least six (6) months, has been implemented in at least two separate codebases, and has been voted forward on the standards track by the XMPP Council."
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ralphm
Zash: quoting XEP-0001 on us, huh?
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Zash
;P
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ralphm
Seriously, though, it was never deemed ready for a vote, so far.
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