XMPP Council - 2012-04-18

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14:47:53 ralphm waves
14:49:50 stpeter :)
14:50:38 Tobias howdy
14:52:04 Kev Hi Ralph.
14:53:18 Kev Can we just vote on http://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/message-archive-management.html regardless of Matt not submitting it yet?
14:53:35 Kev He posted to the list some time ago that we could consider that his submission if he didn't get around to it...and he hasn't.
14:54:07 stpeter lazy bastard
14:54:17 ralphm are we force-fed specs now
14:54:18 ralphm ?
14:55:06 stpeter heh
14:57:23 linuxwolf Kev: take authorship … I think I remember MattJ offering that to you at one point (-:
14:58:01 MattJ has joined
14:58:27 stpeter speak of the devil!
14:59:14 MattJ I'm in a conf meeting that looks like it might overrun
14:59:22 ralphm hi devel^WMattJ
14:59:34 ralphm hm
14:59:36 ralphm oh well
14:59:51 MattJ I'll try and pull myself out in a few
15:00:39 linuxwolf ugh
15:01:46 Kev ralphm / Tobias / linuxwolf: Do you guys mind waiting 5mins then to see if MattJ can escape?
15:01:55 Tobias nope..i don't mind
15:02:04 linuxwolf uh
15:02:09 linuxwolf I guess not ...
15:02:21 MattJ Thanks
15:02:31 ralphm Kev: do you think we have to wait like for the MAM spec?
15:02:31 linuxwolf I have a hard stop at 9:30
15:02:34 linuxwolf MDT
15:02:39 linuxwolf 15:30 UTC?
15:02:44 Kev That's 30mins from now.
15:02:46 stpeter right
15:02:49 linuxwolf exactly
15:02:55 stpeter Matt is Meeting Man!
15:03:00 linuxwolf heh
15:03:02 ralphm that's a great time to stop anyway
15:03:03 stpeter well, Meeting Man™
15:03:05 linuxwolf today is my light day
15:03:08 ralphm we shouldn't need the full time
15:03:24 stpeter works to get his inbox below 50 messages
15:04:24 linuxwolf is ticked off at the removal of "javascript:" bookmark url support
15:04:54 stpeter really?
15:04:56 stpeter that's wrong
15:04:56 linuxwolf yeah
15:05:09 linuxwolf it's a Security Exploit
15:05:12 linuxwolf apparently
15:06:16 Kev That's a little irritating.
15:07:10 linuxwolf it's why I bounce between Chrome and FF at this point
15:08:06 linuxwolf if I could type "http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep45" and have it "do the right thing", I would be happy (-:
15:08:21 MattJ Ok, let's go
15:08:23 linuxwolf well, not irritated
15:08:27 Kev 1) Roll call.
15:08:28 Kev I'm here.
15:08:32 linuxwolf presete
15:08:39 linuxwolf gah
15:08:40 ralphm here
15:08:48 MattJ Here
15:09:20 Kev Tobias: Ping!
15:09:22 ralphm linuxworf: what about smart bookmarks? I usually just type xep 0045
15:09:30 Tobias pong
15:09:35 linuxwolf I don't want to type the "45" 9-:
15:09:40 linuxwolf I suggest we start with MAM first
15:09:42 MattJ Heh
15:10:01 linuxwolf that's Message Archiving Manager, not Matthew A. Miller (-:
15:10:13 Kev linuxwolf: Really? OK, I don't mind.
15:10:20 MattJ linuxwolf, Oh, so we have PSA and MAM?
15:10:25 Kev 2) MAM http://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/message-archive-management.html Accept as XEP?
15:10:31 linuxwolf +1
15:10:35 MattJ +1
15:10:39 Tobias +1
15:10:39 ralphm !
15:10:41 ralphm +1
15:10:45 Kev And MattJ will, on pain of DEATH send the XML to Peter today.
15:10:49 MattJ +1
15:10:49 Kev +1.
15:10:52 ralphm +1
15:10:53 linuxwolf +1
15:10:54 Tobias +1
15:11:07 Kev 3) Dialback: * Where does this live? * How far does it go?
15:11:08 MattJ The XSF's powers are getting scary
15:11:09 stpeter yow
15:11:11 ralphm whose death, by the way?
15:11:19 Kev ralphm: NaN
15:11:21 stpeter first we had POKE, now we'll have SMITE?
15:11:25 Kev linuxwolf: This was yours, I think?
15:11:40 linuxwolf I suggested it ...
15:12:17 linuxwolf as the work on DNA slowly progresses, we need to have a dialback progressed to a "recommend implement" state, with fixes
15:12:27 linuxwolf now, I'll defer to stpeter (-:
15:12:30 stpeter heh
15:13:18 stpeter ok, I chatted with fippo in Paris at the IETF meeting and we agreed that it would be best to document dialback at the IETF (again) so that we can put all these federation + DNA pieces together in the same place
15:13:35 ralphm that seems sensible
15:13:45 MattJ Hmm, ok
15:14:30 Kev stpeter: So is this the authors saying they want to retract the XEP?
15:15:04 stpeter basically, it appears that for DNA purposes we'll be using dialback as a "transport" for various credentials (dbkeys) and assertions (DANE, /.well-known/, etc.)
15:15:06 fippo kev: not yet i think -- actually i have a version with minor bugfixes and a nice new feature
15:15:20 Kev fippo: Ah, you're here :)
15:15:58 Kev So is all we need to do to wait for fippo and stpeter to agree on a new version an submit it?
15:16:21 Kev And then to move it up to Draft?
15:16:25 MattJ To the XSF or IETF?
15:16:27 stpeter yes, fippo and I need to chat further, but I wanted to socialize the idea of moving this back to the IETF
15:16:54 Kev MattJ: I just understood from fippo that he'd like to get the XEP in order first.
15:17:07 Kev Which seems to make sense to me, we can always then deprecate that once it's RFCd.
15:17:24 stpeter possible, yes
15:17:28 ralphm ok, but that case the venue is the XSF, not the IETF
15:17:45 stpeter truly I'd prefer to just get to work on it at the IETF
15:18:04 linuxwolf I just want *something* to progress
15:18:12 fippo doesn't care much where that happens
15:18:29 stpeter linuxwolf: :)
15:18:34 Kev I have, I *think*, no objection to moving this back to the IETF, although I also aren't sure there's a great benefit to it.
15:18:50 ralphm stpeter: have any of the interested parties expressed a preference?
15:18:56 Zash Dialback in SMTP?
15:19:02 linuxwolf the perceived benefit is that all federation basics are by one SDO
15:19:05 stpeter Zash: um, no :)
15:19:13 linuxwolf "basics" being a relative term
15:19:40 Kev So, there's no Council action here anyway, right?
15:19:42 Tobias right...if it catches one it could be made a requirement of xmpp-core-bis
15:20:08 stpeter Kev: no Council action needed at this time, I think
15:20:11 Kev OK.
15:20:11 linuxwolf Tobias: we're thinking this is either stand-alone, or part of the federation/dna draft
15:20:25 Kev 4) Obsoleting XEP-0130 No objections received onlists.
15:20:29 Kev So I'm ok with this.
15:20:31 ralphm +1
15:20:33 linuxwolf +1
15:20:41 linuxwolf well
15:20:51 linuxwolf maybe move it to deprecated
15:21:00 stpeter sure, Deprecated is fine with me
15:21:02 Tobias linuxwolf, right..but if integrated in dna, dna could be made a requirement
15:21:05 linuxwolf dot the i's and cross the t's
15:21:06 Kev linuxwolf: +1
15:21:22 Tobias +1 on obsoleting
15:21:36 Kev Tobias: But not deprecating?
15:21:47 MattJ Same here
15:21:53 MattJ er
15:21:55 stpeter yeah, deprecate is fine -- that just means the Council will need to look at the issue again in 6+ months :)
15:21:57 MattJ Sorry, I was scrolled up
15:22:01 linuxwolf Tobias: DNA would be a requirement, if one supports this not-yet-draft thing
15:22:09 ralphm Why in two steps?
15:22:17 Tobias stpeter, and obsoleting would move it off any future agenda?
15:22:25 Kev ralphm: I think we're supposed to do it in two steps, without checking XEP-0001.
15:22:27 linuxwolf ralphm: according to XEP-0001, it's supposed to be a 2-step process
15:22:50 stpeter right
15:22:51 ralphm can we vote on it being automatically moved to obsolete in 6 months?
15:22:59 linuxwolf sounds good to me
15:23:00 linuxwolf +1
15:23:02 Tobias +1
15:23:08 Kev ralphm: I don't think it's going to be a hardship to vote on this again in 6 months :)
15:23:11 linuxwolf w00t … a use for <councilnote/> (-:
15:23:17 stpeter haha
15:23:19 Kev But sure, let's do that.
15:23:21 stpeter speaking of which
15:23:22 ralphm +1
15:23:26 Kev OK.
15:23:33 Kev stpeter: I've seen no objections, so please integrate :)
15:23:37 linuxwolf <councilnote>Within six months, this XEP will automatically be determined to be Obsolete</councilnote>
15:23:40 Kev 5) Date of next meeting.
15:24:01 ralphm SBTSBC
15:24:02 linuxwolf SBtSBC works for me
15:24:09 MattJ Same wfm
15:24:16 Tobias wfm
15:24:23 Kev It works for me next week (mostly) it won't the week after. So you may need to think whether you want to meet without me in a fortnight :)
15:24:25 Kev 6) AOB?
15:24:27 linuxwolf 05/02 will not work for me
15:24:31 linuxwolf head's up
15:24:52 stpeter I will be on an airplane on May 2
15:24:55 linuxwolf I say we skip 05/02 (-:
15:25:00 linuxwolf and, no AOB from me
15:25:07 stpeter AOB: http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/council/2012-April/003459.html
15:25:07 linuxwolf (other AOB?)
15:25:18 stpeter Kev and Matt said it looked fine
15:25:26 linuxwolf this Matt
15:25:29 stpeter if others have feedback, please say so here
15:25:38 stpeter linuxwolf: of course, the other one is Matthew :)
15:26:15 ralphm isn't MUST too strong?
15:26:27 MattJ Missed that email somehow
15:26:29 ralphm it's not like stuff actually breaks, apart from security
15:26:35 MattJ Oh, it's 2h old
15:26:39 linuxwolf (-:
15:26:39 stpeter MattJ: right
15:26:43 stpeter we can discuss next time
15:26:45 stpeter or on the list
15:26:47 stpeter or more widely
15:26:50 MattJ Sure
15:26:51 stpeter no big hurry
15:27:02 Kev Shall we continue this onlist, then?
15:27:03 linuxwolf It seems ok to me, since ZRTP hashes will be different, unless you did something horribly wrong (IIRC)
15:27:17 stpeter ralphm: Phil Zimmermann said must so that seemed good enough for me ;-)
15:27:21 ralphm :-)
15:27:27 ralphm I'm ok with this change
15:27:29 Kev Any other any other business?
15:27:34 stpeter but yeah, listage is fine with me
15:27:40 stpeter no other AOBs here
15:28:02 Kev Right, I think we're done with 4 mins to spare then.
15:28:04 Kev Thanks all.
15:28:07 linuxwolf /whew
15:28:08 Kev bangs the gavel.
15:28:12 Tobias thanks
15:28:17 linuxwolf grazie
15:28:21 MattJ Merci
15:28:36 stpeter applies the councilnote patch
15:28:51 Kev stpeter: Please remember to extract the XML from Matt or let him die trying :)
15:29:02 MattJ :)
15:29:08 MattJ I'm going to work on it right now
15:29:24 linuxwolf I suppose we could launch some root attacks against his computers...
15:29:27 stpeter heehee
15:29:43 linuxwolf joking!
15:31:13 stpeter ralphm: I think s/MUST/needs to be/ is fine in that note -- it is just a note, after all
15:32:00 Zash linuxwolf: http://xep.xmpp.zash.se/muc (re earlier talk)
15:32:03 linuxwolf you should all read < http://www.circleid.com/posts/dns_resolution_browsers_hope_for_the_future/ >, then start discussing
15:32:33 linuxwolf Zash: nice
15:33:10 ralphm stpeter: nod
15:33:36 stpeter linuxwolf: thanks for the reminder
15:33:38 stpeter reads
15:34:01 stpeter I mean, I had dinner with Andrew and a few other folks in Paris, but that was on a slightly different topic
15:34:17 linuxwolf (-:
15:34:31 linuxwolf it was the third most talked about topic for me in Paris
15:34:48 linuxwolf and I really think everyone should care
15:35:30 stpeter yep
15:36:05 stpeter linuxwolf: he and I were talking about ways to get beyond the public suffix list (which is kind of like /etc/hosts for Web 2.0 or somesuch)
15:38:04 ralphm linuxwolf: interesting. Twisted implements its own resolver, partly because system calls are blocking
15:38:14 linuxwolf ralphm: exactly
15:38:42 linuxwolf "everyone" ends up doing their own, which all behave slightly differently, and give some us headaches
15:38:42 Zash and prosody ...
15:39:15 ralphm I also found out recently that Twisted's SRV connector is hasn't changed much in 9 years, but doesn't work as specified in the SRV RFC
15:39:17 linuxwolf but I can tell you that "DNS people" don't see the current state of things as a problem, necessarily
15:39:27 stpeter interesting, http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0086.html is deprecated, too (as is XEP-0093)
15:40:08 stpeter I wonder if it's time to change 86 to Obsolete
15:40:08 linuxwolf the amount of time spent talking past each other is a little astounding
15:40:22 ralphm another trend is that recent versions of Ubuntu ship with dnsmasq by default
15:40:30 linuxwolf can you tell my 15:30 meeting ended five minutes ago (-:
15:40:39 stpeter quick meeting!
15:40:44 linuxwolf daily scrum!
15:41:08 ralphm linuxwolf: i.e. enabled by default
15:41:13 Zash ralphm: I've installed a local resolver on all my boxes
15:41:41 ralphm linuxwolf: with network-manager telling it the nameservers it should forward requests, too
15:41:42 ralphm to
15:42:11 linuxwolf ralphm: that's fine and good, but if my code can't get there in an efficient manner, I might as well only use /etc/hosts
15:42:29 linuxwolf the problem is not the resolver or nameservers, it's the libraries
15:42:35 linuxwolf or the system calls
15:42:40 ralphm I understand this
15:42:43 linuxwolf (and the system calls?)
15:42:55 linuxwolf sorry, this is a rage subject for me now (-:
15:43:02 ralphm but this is an interesting approach as this gives it a better API than system calls: the DNS protocol
15:43:25 linuxwolf dude, doing the DNS protocol properly is **HARD**
15:43:34 stpeter regarding XEP-0130, I think we just assign it an expiration date, see http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0001.html#expiration
15:43:45 ralphm better is subjective, of course
15:44:14 ralphm richer is probably a better word
15:44:15 linuxwolf I'd rather not have to think about YAP if I don't have to
15:44:26 ralphm agreed
15:44:33 linuxwolf I'd rather have a function or two I can call, and "magic" happens
15:44:53 ralphm but not blocking
15:44:57 linuxwolf also, lack of an API makes processing DNSSEC very very difficult
15:45:04 linuxwolf well, lack of a library
15:45:25 fippo linuxwolf: unbound
15:45:28 linuxwolf then we might want to tack DANE on top of all that, and properly validate chains
15:45:43 linuxwolf fippo: it lauches a new process, which means I can't use it everywhere I want to
15:45:49 linuxwolf I've told them about it, too
15:46:06 linuxwolf each request forks a new process to make the DNS request
15:46:36 linuxwolf that is almost worse than blocking function calls in a lot of environments
15:46:39 fippo linuxwolf: iirc it can use just a single background thread which runs an event loop
15:46:51 Zash libunbound \o/
15:46:58 linuxwolf fippo: it can, but I've found it difficult to get setup that way
15:46:58 fippo (but doesn't give any means of integrating that loop into your own eventloop)
15:47:16 linuxwolf and it's still spawning a new process
15:47:32 linuxwolf it's eating up far more resources than just handling it async would
15:47:45 linuxwolf less on Linux than Darwin or Mac
15:47:48 linuxwolf er
15:47:51 linuxwolf Darwin or Windows
15:48:15 linuxwolf and using it on Android or iOS is …. troubleshome
15:48:49 Kev Tobias has libunbound working on Android, I believe.
15:49:06 linuxwolf I tried to get it to work for iOS and had issues
15:49:23 linuxwolf at one point, I couldn't get it to compile in NDK, but that was a *long* time ago
15:51:22 linuxwolf and, anyway, spawning a process (or a thread) to make something async is a resource-hogging cop-out
15:52:16 linuxwolf "all" of the platforms (most of us care about) have a way to manage asynchronous I/O is a very efficient manner
15:52:48 linuxwolf takes a breath, and directs this ire back at the folks who it should actually be directed at (-:
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