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- ralphm waves
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stpeter
:)
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Tobias
howdy
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Kev
Hi Ralph.
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Kev
Can we just vote on http://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/message-archive-management.html regardless of Matt not submitting it yet?
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Kev
He posted to the list some time ago that we could consider that his submission if he didn't get around to it...and he hasn't.
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stpeter
lazy bastard
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ralphm
are we force-fed specs now
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ralphm
?
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stpeter
heh
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linuxwolf
Kev: take authorship … I think I remember MattJ offering that to you at one point (-:
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stpeter
speak of the devil!
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MattJ
I'm in a conf meeting that looks like it might overrun
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ralphm
hi devel^WMattJ
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ralphm
hm
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ralphm
oh well
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MattJ
I'll try and pull myself out in a few
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linuxwolf
ugh
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Kev
ralphm / Tobias / linuxwolf: Do you guys mind waiting 5mins then to see if MattJ can escape?
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Tobias
nope..i don't mind
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linuxwolf
uh
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linuxwolf
I guess not ...
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MattJ
Thanks
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ralphm
Kev: do you think we have to wait like for the MAM spec?
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linuxwolf
I have a hard stop at 9:30
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linuxwolf
MDT
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linuxwolf
15:30 UTC?
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Kev
That's 30mins from now.
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stpeter
right
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linuxwolf
exactly
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stpeter
Matt is Meeting Man!
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linuxwolf
heh
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ralphm
that's a great time to stop anyway
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stpeter
well, Meeting Man™
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linuxwolf
today is my light day
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ralphm
we shouldn't need the full time
- stpeter works to get his inbox below 50 messages
- linuxwolf is ticked off at the removal of "javascript:" bookmark url support
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stpeter
really?
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stpeter
that's wrong
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linuxwolf
yeah
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linuxwolf
it's a Security Exploit
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linuxwolf
apparently
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Kev
That's a little irritating.
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linuxwolf
it's why I bounce between Chrome and FF at this point
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linuxwolf
if I could type "http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep45" and have it "do the right thing", I would be happy (-:
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MattJ
Ok, let's go
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linuxwolf
well, not irritated
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Kev
1) Roll call.
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Kev
I'm here.
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linuxwolf
presete
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linuxwolf
gah
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ralphm
here
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MattJ
Here
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Kev
Tobias: Ping!
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ralphm
linuxworf: what about smart bookmarks? I usually just type xep 0045
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Tobias
pong
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linuxwolf
I don't want to type the "45" 9-:
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linuxwolf
I suggest we start with MAM first
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MattJ
Heh
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linuxwolf
that's Message Archiving Manager, not Matthew A. Miller (-:
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Kev
linuxwolf: Really? OK, I don't mind.
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MattJ
linuxwolf, Oh, so we have PSA and MAM?
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Kev
2) MAM http://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/message-archive-management.html Accept as XEP?
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linuxwolf
+1
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MattJ
+1
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Tobias
+1
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ralphm
!
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ralphm
+1
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Kev
And MattJ will, on pain of DEATH send the XML to Peter today.
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MattJ
+1
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Kev
+1.
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ralphm
+1
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linuxwolf
+1
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Tobias
+1
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Kev
3) Dialback: * Where does this live? * How far does it go?
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MattJ
The XSF's powers are getting scary
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stpeter
yow
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ralphm
whose death, by the way?
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Kev
ralphm: NaN
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stpeter
first we had POKE, now we'll have SMITE?
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Kev
linuxwolf: This was yours, I think?
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linuxwolf
I suggested it ...
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linuxwolf
as the work on DNA slowly progresses, we need to have a dialback progressed to a "recommend implement" state, with fixes
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linuxwolf
now, I'll defer to stpeter (-:
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stpeter
heh
-
stpeter
ok, I chatted with fippo in Paris at the IETF meeting and we agreed that it would be best to document dialback at the IETF (again) so that we can put all these federation + DNA pieces together in the same place
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ralphm
that seems sensible
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MattJ
Hmm, ok
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Kev
stpeter: So is this the authors saying they want to retract the XEP?
-
stpeter
basically, it appears that for DNA purposes we'll be using dialback as a "transport" for various credentials (dbkeys) and assertions (DANE, /.well-known/, etc.)
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fippo
kev: not yet i think -- actually i have a version with minor bugfixes and a nice new feature
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Kev
fippo: Ah, you're here :)
-
Kev
So is all we need to do to wait for fippo and stpeter to agree on a new version an submit it?
-
Kev
And then to move it up to Draft?
-
MattJ
To the XSF or IETF?
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stpeter
yes, fippo and I need to chat further, but I wanted to socialize the idea of moving this back to the IETF
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Kev
MattJ: I just understood from fippo that he'd like to get the XEP in order first.
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Kev
Which seems to make sense to me, we can always then deprecate that once it's RFCd.
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stpeter
possible, yes
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ralphm
ok, but that case the venue is the XSF, not the IETF
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stpeter
truly I'd prefer to just get to work on it at the IETF
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linuxwolf
I just want *something* to progress
- fippo doesn't care much where that happens
-
stpeter
linuxwolf: :)
-
Kev
I have, I *think*, no objection to moving this back to the IETF, although I also aren't sure there's a great benefit to it.
-
ralphm
stpeter: have any of the interested parties expressed a preference?
-
Zash
Dialback in SMTP?
-
linuxwolf
the perceived benefit is that all federation basics are by one SDO
-
stpeter
Zash: um, no :)
-
linuxwolf
"basics" being a relative term
-
Kev
So, there's no Council action here anyway, right?
-
Tobias
right...if it catches one it could be made a requirement of xmpp-core-bis
-
stpeter
Kev: no Council action needed at this time, I think
-
Kev
OK.
-
linuxwolf
Tobias: we're thinking this is either stand-alone, or part of the federation/dna draft
-
Kev
4) Obsoleting XEP-0130 No objections received onlists.
-
Kev
So I'm ok with this.
-
ralphm
+1
-
linuxwolf
+1
-
linuxwolf
well
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linuxwolf
maybe move it to deprecated
-
stpeter
sure, Deprecated is fine with me
-
Tobias
linuxwolf, right..but if integrated in dna, dna could be made a requirement
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linuxwolf
dot the i's and cross the t's
-
Kev
linuxwolf: +1
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Tobias
+1 on obsoleting
-
Kev
Tobias: But not deprecating?
-
MattJ
Same here
-
MattJ
er
-
stpeter
yeah, deprecate is fine -- that just means the Council will need to look at the issue again in 6+ months :)
-
MattJ
Sorry, I was scrolled up
-
linuxwolf
Tobias: DNA would be a requirement, if one supports this not-yet-draft thing
-
ralphm
Why in two steps?
-
Tobias
stpeter, and obsoleting would move it off any future agenda?
-
Kev
ralphm: I think we're supposed to do it in two steps, without checking XEP-0001.
-
linuxwolf
ralphm: according to XEP-0001, it's supposed to be a 2-step process
-
stpeter
right
-
ralphm
can we vote on it being automatically moved to obsolete in 6 months?
-
linuxwolf
sounds good to me
-
linuxwolf
+1
-
Tobias
+1
-
Kev
ralphm: I don't think it's going to be a hardship to vote on this again in 6 months :)
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linuxwolf
w00t … a use for <councilnote/> (-:
-
stpeter
haha
-
Kev
But sure, let's do that.
-
stpeter
speaking of which
-
ralphm
+1
-
Kev
OK.
-
Kev
stpeter: I've seen no objections, so please integrate :)
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linuxwolf
<councilnote>Within six months, this XEP will automatically be determined to be Obsolete</councilnote>
-
Kev
5) Date of next meeting.
-
ralphm
SBTSBC
-
linuxwolf
SBtSBC works for me
-
MattJ
Same wfm
-
Tobias
wfm
-
Kev
It works for me next week (mostly) it won't the week after. So you may need to think whether you want to meet without me in a fortnight :)
-
Kev
6) AOB?
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linuxwolf
05/02 will not work for me
-
linuxwolf
head's up
-
stpeter
I will be on an airplane on May 2
-
linuxwolf
I say we skip 05/02 (-:
-
linuxwolf
and, no AOB from me
-
stpeter
AOB: http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/council/2012-April/003459.html
-
linuxwolf
(other AOB?)
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stpeter
Kev and Matt said it looked fine
-
linuxwolf
this Matt
-
stpeter
if others have feedback, please say so here
-
stpeter
linuxwolf: of course, the other one is Matthew :)
-
ralphm
isn't MUST too strong?
-
MattJ
Missed that email somehow
-
ralphm
it's not like stuff actually breaks, apart from security
-
MattJ
Oh, it's 2h old
-
linuxwolf
(-:
-
stpeter
MattJ: right
-
stpeter
we can discuss next time
-
stpeter
or on the list
-
stpeter
or more widely
-
MattJ
Sure
-
stpeter
no big hurry
-
Kev
Shall we continue this onlist, then?
-
linuxwolf
It seems ok to me, since ZRTP hashes will be different, unless you did something horribly wrong (IIRC)
-
stpeter
ralphm: Phil Zimmermann said must so that seemed good enough for me ;-)
-
ralphm
:-)
-
ralphm
I'm ok with this change
-
Kev
Any other any other business?
-
stpeter
but yeah, listage is fine with me
-
stpeter
no other AOBs here
-
Kev
Right, I think we're done with 4 mins to spare then.
-
Kev
Thanks all.
-
linuxwolf
/whew
- Kev bangs the gavel.
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Tobias
thanks
-
linuxwolf
grazie
-
MattJ
Merci
- stpeter applies the councilnote patch
-
Kev
stpeter: Please remember to extract the XML from Matt or let him die trying :)
-
MattJ
:)
-
MattJ
I'm going to work on it right now
-
linuxwolf
I suppose we could launch some root attacks against his computers...
-
stpeter
heehee
-
linuxwolf
joking!
-
stpeter
ralphm: I think s/MUST/needs to be/ is fine in that note -- it is just a note, after all
-
Zash
linuxwolf: http://xep.xmpp.zash.se/muc (re earlier talk)
-
linuxwolf
you should all read < http://www.circleid.com/posts/dns_resolution_browsers_hope_for_the_future/ >, then start discussing
-
linuxwolf
Zash: nice
-
ralphm
stpeter: nod
-
stpeter
linuxwolf: thanks for the reminder
- stpeter reads
-
stpeter
I mean, I had dinner with Andrew and a few other folks in Paris, but that was on a slightly different topic
-
linuxwolf
(-:
-
linuxwolf
it was the third most talked about topic for me in Paris
-
linuxwolf
and I really think everyone should care
-
stpeter
yep
-
stpeter
linuxwolf: he and I were talking about ways to get beyond the public suffix list (which is kind of like /etc/hosts for Web 2.0 or somesuch)
-
ralphm
linuxwolf: interesting. Twisted implements its own resolver, partly because system calls are blocking
-
linuxwolf
ralphm: exactly
-
linuxwolf
"everyone" ends up doing their own, which all behave slightly differently, and give some us headaches
-
Zash
and prosody ...
-
ralphm
I also found out recently that Twisted's SRV connector is hasn't changed much in 9 years, but doesn't work as specified in the SRV RFC
-
linuxwolf
but I can tell you that "DNS people" don't see the current state of things as a problem, necessarily
-
stpeter
interesting, http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0086.html is deprecated, too (as is XEP-0093)
-
stpeter
I wonder if it's time to change 86 to Obsolete
-
linuxwolf
the amount of time spent talking past each other is a little astounding
-
ralphm
another trend is that recent versions of Ubuntu ship with dnsmasq by default
-
linuxwolf
can you tell my 15:30 meeting ended five minutes ago (-:
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stpeter
quick meeting!
-
linuxwolf
daily scrum!
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ralphm
linuxwolf: i.e. enabled by default
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Zash
ralphm: I've installed a local resolver on all my boxes
-
ralphm
linuxwolf: with network-manager telling it the nameservers it should forward requests, too
-
ralphm
to
-
linuxwolf
ralphm: that's fine and good, but if my code can't get there in an efficient manner, I might as well only use /etc/hosts
-
linuxwolf
the problem is not the resolver or nameservers, it's the libraries
-
linuxwolf
or the system calls
-
ralphm
I understand this
-
linuxwolf
(and the system calls?)
-
linuxwolf
sorry, this is a rage subject for me now (-:
-
ralphm
but this is an interesting approach as this gives it a better API than system calls: the DNS protocol
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linuxwolf
dude, doing the DNS protocol properly is **HARD**
-
stpeter
regarding XEP-0130, I think we just assign it an expiration date, see http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0001.html#expiration
-
ralphm
better is subjective, of course
-
ralphm
richer is probably a better word
-
linuxwolf
I'd rather not have to think about YAP if I don't have to
-
ralphm
agreed
-
linuxwolf
I'd rather have a function or two I can call, and "magic" happens
-
ralphm
but not blocking
-
linuxwolf
also, lack of an API makes processing DNSSEC very very difficult
-
linuxwolf
well, lack of a library
-
fippo
linuxwolf: unbound
-
linuxwolf
then we might want to tack DANE on top of all that, and properly validate chains
-
linuxwolf
fippo: it lauches a new process, which means I can't use it everywhere I want to
-
linuxwolf
I've told them about it, too
-
linuxwolf
each request forks a new process to make the DNS request
-
linuxwolf
that is almost worse than blocking function calls in a lot of environments
-
fippo
linuxwolf: iirc it can use just a single background thread which runs an event loop
-
Zash
libunbound \o/
-
linuxwolf
fippo: it can, but I've found it difficult to get setup that way
-
fippo
(but doesn't give any means of integrating that loop into your own eventloop)
-
linuxwolf
and it's still spawning a new process
-
linuxwolf
it's eating up far more resources than just handling it async would
-
linuxwolf
less on Linux than Darwin or Mac
-
linuxwolf
er
-
linuxwolf
Darwin or Windows
-
linuxwolf
and using it on Android or iOS is …. troubleshome
-
Kev
Tobias has libunbound working on Android, I believe.
-
linuxwolf
I tried to get it to work for iOS and had issues
-
linuxwolf
at one point, I couldn't get it to compile in NDK, but that was a *long* time ago
-
linuxwolf
and, anyway, spawning a process (or a thread) to make something async is a resource-hogging cop-out
-
linuxwolf
"all" of the platforms (most of us care about) have a way to manage asynchronous I/O is a very efficient manner
- linuxwolf takes a breath, and directs this ire back at the folks who it should actually be directed at (-:
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