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Kev
T-2 hours.
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m&m
am I early or late?
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Kev
Early.
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Kev
32 minutes.
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m&m
yay
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m&m
holiday + timezone differences == confusion
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Kev
Honoured you're taking time out of the holiday to chat to us... :)
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m&m
well, I suppose we should have a first meeting at some point before 2013 (-:
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Kev
It does seem desirable.
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Kev
I've poked Ralph, but he's got another minute anyway :)
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Kev
Ah, and at that moment his client auto-idles :)
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Kev
I did check with him last night that he'd be here, so shall we give him a few minutes?
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m&m
sure
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Kev
I'm fairly keen that for electing a chair everyone's here, even if for no other votes of the year :)
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m&m
exacetally
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Tobias
here
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Kev
Excellent. Just Ralph, then.
- Kev drums his fingers on the desk.
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m&m
hrm
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MattJ
I'm in no hurry, FWIW :)
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Tobias
so for this kev had to wake me up ^^
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Kev
MattJ: m&m's on holiday, it'd be nice to not keep him indefinitely :)
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m&m
heh
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MattJ
I didn't say m&m wasn't in a hurry
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Kev
Obviously the rest of you I don't care about :D
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m&m
haha
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Kev
Board had to vote on a Chair yesterday with just 3/5 present.
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Kev
So we'll beat that with 4/5 even if Ralph doesn't appear :)
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Kev
I'd suggest if we wait until 15past and then go ahead regardless it'd seem fair - what do others think?
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m&m
at least it's quorum
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m&m
that works for me
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m&m
I'm not in a hurry
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MattJ
\o/
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MattJ
I'm +1 to :15
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MattJ
Ok, for want of something to discuss, and while we're all here...
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MattJ
*mostly all here
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Kev
I'm mostly all there.
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MattJ
http://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/xep-json.html
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Kanchil
MattJ: http://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/xep-json.html: XEP-xxxx: JSON container
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MattJ
Shush Kanchil
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m&m
|-:
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MattJ
Heh
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Kev
It's quarter past.
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m&m
let's just do this
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Kev
I guess we should go ahead, if we want to be sure of finishing on time.
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Kev
1) Roll call.
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Kev
I'm here.
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m&m
presente
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MattJ
Also
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Kev
Tobias was here 7 minutes ago. I hope he's still here now :)
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Kev
I guess we'll find out if he's not when we do (2) :)
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Kev
2) Electing chair.
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Tobias
yup
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Tobias
presente
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Kev
I'm happy to do it. Would anyone else like to be considered?
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MattJ
*tumbleweed*
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m&m
I'm fine playing backup (-:
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Tobias
yeah..let's all vote on backup :P
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MattJ
Heh
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m&m
(-:
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Kev
Heh.
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Kev
Should I take that as "no-one else standing", then?
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m&m
yesh
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Kev
In which case: Vote for Kev to be chair...
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MattJ
+1
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m&m
+1 to Kev
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Tobias
+1
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Kev
+1
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MattJ
Shocking
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Kev
Marvellous.
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Kev
Without even resorting to threats of physical violence.
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Tobias
*ouch*
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Kev
3) Message Forwarding. Last Call?
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MattJ
+1
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m&m
+1
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Kev
That's "Stanza Forwarding', actually, isn't it?
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MattJ
It is
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Kev
297, in any case.
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m&m
yes
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Kev
I'm +1 on an LC.
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Tobias
can you also forward IQs?
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Kev
Tobias: If you want to.
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MattJ
Yes
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Tobias
then +1
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MattJ
I won't pretend that's useful though
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m&m
there's limited applicability for IQs
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Kev
I can only come up with contrived examples, at first glance.
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m&m
such as end-to-end encryptkon
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m&m
encryption
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m&m
which I need to add to the draft
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Kev
I'm +1 too.
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Kev
4) Date of next meeting
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MattJ
I'm starting to feel obligated to anticipate all the horrible ways people might use XEPs I write and include "Please don't do this" requests
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Kev
Next Wednesday, 1600UTC?
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m&m
Kev: +1
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MattJ
wfm
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Tobias
wfm
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m&m
MattJ: the only solution is to not write XEPs (-:
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Kev
Marvellous. Board have timed their meetings to be weekly, immediately subsequent to Council this year, which is convenient if anyone wants to drop in and heckle.
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MattJ
Easier said than done
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Kev
Oh, no, it's quite easy.
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MattJ
Kev, yes, that's a great idea
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Kev
You just join the MUC and make irrelevant comments.
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MattJ
They're still in xsf@?
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Kev
...oh, you didn't mean that :D
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Kev
Yes.
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m&m
(-:
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Kev
5) Any other business
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Kev
I'll do my now traditional "Anything anyone wants to change about the way Council is chaired/run this year?" question.
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m&m
*crickets*
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Zash
_̎
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MattJ
It's been pretty ok with me, except when meeting times change, or when I think they have, but they haven't really
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Kev
I've now, I hope, passed the ludicrously busy spell I had the last couple of months. I've not had to go on site for multiple weeks in a row \o/.
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m&m
heh
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Kev
OK.
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Kev
Any other any other business?
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MattJ
Not here
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m&m
nay
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Tobias
nope
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Kev
Marvellous. Despite a delayed start, 4 minutes to spare.
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MattJ
Any informal comments on the jay-son thingie? I fully intend to submit it otherwise :)
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Kev
Thanks all :)
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MattJ
Thanks Kev
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Kev
MattJ: I think it's a bit nasty, and likely to cause pain, but it's something there's a (perceived) requirement for, so who am I to judge?
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MattJ
What pain might it cause? and what (if anything) can be done to prevent it?
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m&m
MattJ: to be frank, I almost no benefit to it … you still need context
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MattJ
I can't be the only person who thinks JSON in <body/> is evil
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m&m
I think that's evil also, but I also don't see a point to a single wrapper for all cases of JSON
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m&m
guidelines for how one mixes in JSON to XMPP, sure
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m&m
a single container … no
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Kev
MattJ: I don't think that specification for including JSON causes pain, particularly. More that mixing content types like that doesn't seem to buy very much, and JSON isn't all that great for things that need interop and extensibility etc., and ...
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Kev
m&m: This is true, but at least for the way Swift does parsing/serialising, having all json always in the same wrapper element (which is then within a context element) would be convenient.
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Kev
*Swiften
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Kev
So I'm not particularly opposed to saying "If your protocol is shipping JSON, shove it inside <this> element, within your own namespaced element.
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Kev
As example 2 does in MattJ's spec.
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MattJ
Right
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Zash
Compare to 297 and xhtml-im
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MattJ
That's pretty much exactly what it's intended for
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m&m
frankly, I'd only be ok if it always had to be wrapped by something else
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Kev
MattJ: So I think maybe example 1 should go.
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MattJ
I'm ok with that
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m&m
in fact, I'm not sure 297 should be present without somehting wrapping it
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m&m
something even
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Kev
m&m: 297 does have a use case for this, which is that sometimes you really do just want to forward a message as a real forward.
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MattJ
But many closed "XMPP as middleware" do already do the JSON-in-body hack, I've seen it in multiple places now, and I wince every time
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MattJ
The "context" there is the sender and recipient
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m&m
MattJ: I'm not saying it won't happen
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MattJ
I agree that's not pretty, but it's reality
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Kev
MattJ: Where interop isn't required, I don't really much care what people do :)
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MattJ
I do, or they might as well not be using XMPP :)
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Kev
You can encode stuff in a message body for all I care as long as it doesn't reach anyone else's system :)
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MattJ
and I see this as a step up from what they do now
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MattJ
I've had to interface with such systems :(
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Kev
As soon as you need to interface with them, interop's required.
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Kev
And it starts being clearly wrong :)
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MattJ
So, happy with a "SHOULD" be inside another element?
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MattJ
I think that sounds good to me
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m&m
I'm happy with a MUST
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MattJ
Heh
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Kev
TBH, I don't see much of an argument to not say MUST, although hills, etc.
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Kev
In as much as anyone who's going to ignore it is going to ignore the XEP completely.
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MattJ
Right
- m&m plants flag, burns bridge that lets me down
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MattJ
But they can be coaxed in the right direction
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Kev
They're not going to say "Oh, well, I'm happy to put it in this wrapper element, but my own namespace? That's just a bridge too far, melad"
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MattJ
That's mostly the intention
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Kev
They'll either swallow it and do the right thing, or ignore everything the spec says completely :)
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Kev
So you may as well say MUST do the right thing.
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MattJ
!xep 297
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Kanchil
MattJ: XEP-0297(forwarding): http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0297.html Stanza Forwarding - Standards Track/Experimental - Updated: 2012-07-05
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Kev
Ah, are we talking about 297 or JSON now?
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Kev
I was talking about JSON.
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MattJ
JSON
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m&m
I thought we were talking about JSON
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MattJ
I'm just cross-referencing language :)
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Kev
OK.
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Zash
!xep 231
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Kanchil
Zash: XEP-0231(bob): http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0231.html Bits of Binary - Standards Track/Draft - Updated: 2008-09-03
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