XMPP Council - 2012-11-21

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  9. Kev

    T-2 hours.

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  15. m&m

    am I early or late?

  16. Kev


  17. Kev

    32 minutes.

  18. m&m


  19. m&m

    holiday + timezone differences == confusion

  20. Kev

    Honoured you're taking time out of the holiday to chat to us... :)

  21. m&m

    well, I suppose we should have a first meeting at some point before 2013 (-:

  22. Kev

    It does seem desirable.

  23. MattJ has joined

  24. Kev

    I've poked Ralph, but he's got another minute anyway :)

  25. Kev

    Ah, and at that moment his client auto-idles :)

  26. Kev

    I did check with him last night that he'd be here, so shall we give him a few minutes?

  27. m&m


  28. Kev

    I'm fairly keen that for electing a chair everyone's here, even if for no other votes of the year :)

  29. m&m


  30. Tobias


  31. Kev

    Excellent. Just Ralph, then.

  32. Kev drums his fingers on the desk.

  33. m&m


  34. MattJ

    I'm in no hurry, FWIW :)

  35. Tobias

    so for this kev had to wake me up ^^

  36. Kev

    MattJ: m&m's on holiday, it'd be nice to not keep him indefinitely :)

  37. m&m


  38. MattJ

    I didn't say m&m wasn't in a hurry

  39. Kev

    Obviously the rest of you I don't care about :D

  40. m&m


  41. Kev

    Board had to vote on a Chair yesterday with just 3/5 present.

  42. Kev

    So we'll beat that with 4/5 even if Ralph doesn't appear :)

  43. Kev

    I'd suggest if we wait until 15past and then go ahead regardless it'd seem fair - what do others think?

  44. m&m

    at least it's quorum

  45. m&m

    that works for me

  46. m&m

    I'm not in a hurry

  47. MattJ


  48. MattJ

    I'm +1 to :15

  49. MattJ

    Ok, for want of something to discuss, and while we're all here...

  50. MattJ

    *mostly all here

  51. Kev

    I'm mostly all there.

  52. MattJ


  53. Kanchil

    MattJ: http://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/xep-json.html: XEP-xxxx: JSON container

  54. MattJ

    Shush Kanchil

  55. m&m


  56. MattJ


  57. Kev

    It's quarter past.

  58. m&m

    let's just do this

  59. Kev

    I guess we should go ahead, if we want to be sure of finishing on time.

  60. Kev

    1) Roll call.

  61. Kev

    I'm here.

  62. m&m


  63. MattJ


  64. Kev

    Tobias was here 7 minutes ago. I hope he's still here now :)

  65. Kev

    I guess we'll find out if he's not when we do (2) :)

  66. Kev

    2) Electing chair.

  67. Tobias


  68. Tobias


  69. Kev

    I'm happy to do it. Would anyone else like to be considered?

  70. MattJ


  71. m&m

    I'm fine playing backup (-:

  72. Zash whispers "Elect Ralph in his absence"

  73. Tobias

    yeah..let's all vote on backup :P

  74. MattJ


  75. m&m


  76. Kev


  77. Kev

    Should I take that as "no-one else standing", then?

  78. m&m


  79. Kev

    In which case: Vote for Kev to be chair...

  80. MattJ


  81. m&m

    +1 to Kev

  82. Tobias


  83. Kev


  84. MattJ


  85. Kev


  86. Kev

    Without even resorting to threats of physical violence.

  87. Tobias


  88. Kev

    3) Message Forwarding. Last Call?

  89. MattJ


  90. m&m


  91. Kev

    That's "Stanza Forwarding', actually, isn't it?

  92. MattJ

    It is

  93. Kev

    297, in any case.

  94. m&m


  95. Kev

    I'm +1 on an LC.

  96. Tobias

    can you also forward IQs?

  97. Kev

    Tobias: If you want to.

  98. MattJ


  99. Tobias

    then +1

  100. MattJ

    I won't pretend that's useful though

  101. m&m

    there's limited applicability for IQs

  102. Kev

    I can only come up with contrived examples, at first glance.

  103. m&m

    such as end-to-end encryptkon

  104. m&m


  105. m&m

    which I need to add to the draft

  106. Kev

    I'm +1 too.

  107. Kev

    4) Date of next meeting

  108. MattJ

    I'm starting to feel obligated to anticipate all the horrible ways people might use XEPs I write and include "Please don't do this" requests

  109. Kev

    Next Wednesday, 1600UTC?

  110. m&m

    Kev: +1

  111. MattJ


  112. Tobias


  113. m&m

    MattJ: the only solution is to not write XEPs (-:

  114. Kev

    Marvellous. Board have timed their meetings to be weekly, immediately subsequent to Council this year, which is convenient if anyone wants to drop in and heckle.

  115. MattJ

    Easier said than done

  116. Kev

    Oh, no, it's quite easy.

  117. MattJ

    Kev, yes, that's a great idea

  118. Kev

    You just join the MUC and make irrelevant comments.

  119. MattJ

    They're still in xsf@?

  120. Kev

    ...oh, you didn't mean that :D

  121. Kev


  122. m&m


  123. Kev

    5) Any other business

  124. Kev

    I'll do my now traditional "Anything anyone wants to change about the way Council is chaired/run this year?" question.

  125. m&m


  126. Zash

  127. MattJ

    It's been pretty ok with me, except when meeting times change, or when I think they have, but they haven't really

  128. Kev

    I've now, I hope, passed the ludicrously busy spell I had the last couple of months. I've not had to go on site for multiple weeks in a row \o/.

  129. m&m


  130. Kev


  131. Kev

    Any other any other business?

  132. MattJ

    Not here

  133. m&m


  134. Tobias


  135. m&m ignores that jay-son thingie

  136. Kev

    Marvellous. Despite a delayed start, 4 minutes to spare.

  137. Kev bangs the gavel.

  138. MattJ

    Any informal comments on the jay-son thingie? I fully intend to submit it otherwise :)

  139. Kev

    Thanks all :)

  140. MattJ

    Thanks Kev

  141. Kev

    MattJ: I think it's a bit nasty, and likely to cause pain, but it's something there's a (perceived) requirement for, so who am I to judge?

  142. MattJ

    What pain might it cause? and what (if anything) can be done to prevent it?

  143. m&m

    MattJ: to be frank, I almost no benefit to it … you still need context

  144. MattJ

    I can't be the only person who thinks JSON in <body/> is evil

  145. m&m

    I think that's evil also, but I also don't see a point to a single wrapper for all cases of JSON

  146. m&m

    guidelines for how one mixes in JSON to XMPP, sure

  147. m&m

    a single container … no

  148. Kev

    MattJ: I don't think that specification for including JSON causes pain, particularly. More that mixing content types like that doesn't seem to buy very much, and JSON isn't all that great for things that need interop and extensibility etc., and ...

  149. Kev

    m&m: This is true, but at least for the way Swift does parsing/serialising, having all json always in the same wrapper element (which is then within a context element) would be convenient.

  150. Kev


  151. Kev

    So I'm not particularly opposed to saying "If your protocol is shipping JSON, shove it inside <this> element, within your own namespaced element.

  152. Kev

    As example 2 does in MattJ's spec.

  153. MattJ


  154. Zash

    Compare to 297 and xhtml-im

  155. MattJ

    That's pretty much exactly what it's intended for

  156. m&m

    frankly, I'd only be ok if it always had to be wrapped by something else

  157. Kev

    MattJ: So I think maybe example 1 should go.

  158. Kev ^5s m&m

  159. MattJ

    I'm ok with that

  160. m&m

    in fact, I'm not sure 297 should be present without somehting wrapping it

  161. m&m

    something even

  162. Kev

    m&m: 297 does have a use case for this, which is that sometimes you really do just want to forward a message as a real forward.

  163. MattJ

    But many closed "XMPP as middleware" do already do the JSON-in-body hack, I've seen it in multiple places now, and I wince every time

  164. MattJ

    The "context" there is the sender and recipient

  165. m&m

    MattJ: I'm not saying it won't happen

  166. MattJ

    I agree that's not pretty, but it's reality

  167. Kev

    MattJ: Where interop isn't required, I don't really much care what people do :)

  168. MattJ

    I do, or they might as well not be using XMPP :)

  169. Kev

    You can encode stuff in a message body for all I care as long as it doesn't reach anyone else's system :)

  170. MattJ

    and I see this as a step up from what they do now

  171. MattJ

    I've had to interface with such systems :(

  172. Kev

    As soon as you need to interface with them, interop's required.

  173. Kev

    And it starts being clearly wrong :)

  174. MattJ

    So, happy with a "SHOULD" be inside another element?

  175. MattJ

    I think that sounds good to me

  176. m&m

    I'm happy with a MUST

  177. MattJ


  178. Kev

    TBH, I don't see much of an argument to not say MUST, although hills, etc.

  179. Kev

    In as much as anyone who's going to ignore it is going to ignore the XEP completely.

  180. MattJ


  181. m&m plants flag, burns bridge that lets me down

  182. MattJ

    But they can be coaxed in the right direction

  183. Kev

    They're not going to say "Oh, well, I'm happy to put it in this wrapper element, but my own namespace? That's just a bridge too far, melad"

  184. MattJ

    That's mostly the intention

  185. Kev

    They'll either swallow it and do the right thing, or ignore everything the spec says completely :)

  186. Kev

    So you may as well say MUST do the right thing.

  187. MattJ

    !xep 297

  188. Kanchil

    MattJ: XEP-0297(forwarding): http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0297.html Stanza Forwarding - Standards Track/Experimental - Updated: 2012-07-05

  189. Kev

    Ah, are we talking about 297 or JSON now?

  190. Kev

    I was talking about JSON.

  191. MattJ


  192. m&m

    I thought we were talking about JSON

  193. MattJ

    I'm just cross-referencing language :)

  194. Kev


  195. Zash

    !xep 231

  196. Kanchil

    Zash: XEP-0231(bob): http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0231.html Bits of Binary - Standards Track/Draft - Updated: 2008-09-03

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