XMPP Council - 2013-06-19

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  31. m&m T - 10 minutes
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  33. stpeter has joined
  34. stpeter sigh, I broke my Prosody installation at stpeter.im last night, I suppose I'll use jabber.org :-)
  35. m&m oy
  36. m&m how did you break it? I find that difficult to do (-:
  37. stpeter yeah
  38. stpeter m&m dependency madness in debian
  39. m&m hmm
  40. stpeter trying to upgrade to Prosody 0.9rc3
  41. m&m ok, we're two minutes late
  42. m&m I just pinged MattJ and Ralph
  43. MattJ has joined
  44. MattJ wonders why he seems m&m as offline
  45. m&m hrmph
  46. MattJ wonders why he sees m&m as offline
  47. m&m I have no idea
  48. m&m anyway
  49. m&m bangs gavel to start
  50. m&m 1) Roll call
  51. MattJ Here
  52. m&m presente
  53. m&m Tobias?
  54. Tobias there
  55. m&m well, that's a quorum
  56. m&m 2) Proposed XEP: SOX < http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/sox.html >   Accept as Experimental?
  57. fippo would love to see this accepted
  58. m&m I think it's fine as a starting point
  59. m&m no objections from me
  60. stpeter it's worth debating, anyway -- although discussion on the rtcweb@ietf.org indicates that even the use of SDP is in flux at in the WebRTC world
  61. fippo a starting point for a discussion about jingle and sox, but we can/should discuss that under AOB
  62. Tobias i have no objections either
  63. m&m MattJ?
  64. MattJ Grr, sorry, power cut
  65. MattJ I'm +1
  66. m&m Kev and Ralph have a fortnight to raise objections
  67. m&m 3) Proposed XEP: Chat Markers < http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/chat-markers.html >   Accept (revision) as Experimental?
  68. MattJ +1
  69. Tobias +1
  70. m&m no objections from me
  71. m&m Kev and Ralph again have a fortnight to object
  72. m&m 4) Date of Next Meeting
  73. Peter Waher question?
  74. m&m sure
  75. m&m can it wait for AOB?
  76. Peter Waher I have made revisions to 2 proto-XEPs
  77. Peter Waher and would like you to consider advancing them to Experimental
  78. m&m Peter Waher: we can discuss in AOB
  79. Peter Waher the color field type, and HTTP over XMPP
  80. m&m right after this
  81. Peter Waher what is AOB?
  82. m&m just confirming some/most plan to make it
  83. m&m Any Other Business
  84. Peter Waher ok
  85. m&m I'll take silence as acceptance
  86. m&m 5) Any other Business
  87. fippo sox has raised some questions on how we proceed with jingle...
  88. m&m Peter Waher: did you submit your revisions to the XEP editor?
  89. Tobias m&m, so same time next week?
  90. m&m Tobias: yes
  91. Peter Waher yes
  92. Peter Waher and to the standards list
  93. m&m Tobias: treat the "Date of Next Meeting" as a "un-rsvp" (-:
  94. stpeter I'm wondering if we need a new XEP editor
  95. m&m cracks whip @ XEP editor
  96. Tobias stpeter, or split the work up
  97. m&m I didn't add HTTP/XMPP to the agenda as I hadn't seen an update to the officail inbox
  98. m&m official
  99. stpeter m&m yes that my bad
  100. Lance Tobias: or make an editorbot
  101. MattJ :D
  102. m&m heh
  103. fippo stpeter: your skill is wasted as editor. you need to get a secretary
  104. ralphm has joined
  105. stpeter heh
  106. ralphm hi
  107. m&m well, this seems a fitting discussion for council
  108. ralphm sorry for being late
  109. MattJ My internet is going on/off :/
  110. m&m so, stpeter, how would you want the XEP editor role filled?
  111. m&m MattJ: ugh
  112. ralphm no objections to the protocol-xeps
  113. stpeter m&m: probably it makes sense to write a job description and ask for volunteers
  114. m&m ralphm: noted
  115. m&m stpeter: ok, since you're kind of overloaded now, maybe we can work that out between us (-:
  116. Dave Cridland has joined
  117. ralphm hi Dave
  118. fippo i think it's about offloading some of the work... stpeter isn't the only one who can judge things like typo-patches
  119. stpeter we do have http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-README.html
  120. m&m Peter Waher: as to your request…once we get those updated XEPs into the inbox, I'm sure we can get them moved forward
  121. stpeter so that's a kind of job desciption to some extent
  122. ralphm There was talk about pull requests earlier. stpeter: would that make things better?
  123. m&m stpeter: that works for me
  124. Peter Waher thanks
  125. Dave Cridland stpeter, Any idea which parts of your XEP Editor role are causing the most effort, and which you'd be most uncomfortable delegating?
  126. stpeter Dave Cridland: right, I shall give some thought to that and report back to the Council/Board
  127. ralphm awesome
  128. Tobias great
  129. m&m sounds like a plan
  130. ralphm I noted that fippo brought up a point about Jingle
  131. m&m I'll note that for next week's agenda, for the real chair (-:
  132. stpeter also, it might help to give more people git access (or it might not)
  133. m&m fippo: your turn!
  134. ralphm stpeter: (or you just merge in commits, pull requests)
  135. fippo ok... we've all heard how google (or at least a spokesperson) thinks that audio and video is not well integrated into xmpp.
  136. fippo and sox is, to some extend, running in parallel with jingle
  137. stpeter ralphm: yes, I already do that, my problem is that I have too much to do, people at Cisco expect me to work on internal projects these days, I have 20 Internet-Drafts to get finished, and I'm even writing some Python code these days related to internationalization ;-)
  138. fippo and with all the webrtc stuff happening we ought to make sure that webrtc and jingle work together really great
  139. Dave Cridland This seems like a sensible direction, yes.
  140. m&m fippo: ok, so what do you want the council to do?
  141. stpeter fippo: I totally agree -- although webrtc is rather a moving target right now :-)
  142. fippo m&m: until yesterday it was a question of "webrtc uses sdp. jingle doesn't. do we continue to do our own effort"
  143. fippo but then people over at rtcweb wanted to reopen that discussion
  144. Dave Cridland Right, but there's now an endless thread on whether or not WebRTC should use SDP, or at least expose it at all.
  145. stpeter yes, it's quite interesting reading
  146. ralphm indeed
  147. fippo especially that one guy working on a large system built around jingle ;-)
  148. Dave Cridland Right. :-)
  149. ralphm and it really affects what we would like to push for
  150. ralphm apparently that large system doesn't (want to) use SDP at all
  151. stpeter ralphm: yes!
  152. fippo there are some current problems in jingle and sox even addresses some of them
  153. ralphm we have been discussing translating to/from SDP to 'pure' jingle
  154. fippo and of course there is the translation issue
  155. ralphm it seems some people want to ditch SDP and/or offer/answer from the API, leaving it up to signalling protocols entirely
  156. fippo (and i've had a really great day. worked around a crasher bug in chrome and had to reintroduce proprietary elements to the mapping)
  157. stpeter fippo: ouch
  158. ralphm I can see how having browsers generating SDP can be bad for forward compatibility
  159. Tobias m&m, is this still official meeting part over?
  160. ralphm Tobias: not sure
  161. m&m I hadn't banged the gavel yet
  162. ralphm I wonder if we should steer this process from our point of view
  163. fippo ralphm: and that is what i want the council to do ;-)
  164. ralphm 'our' being the XMPP community in general and the council in particular
  165. stpeter yes, the Council is there to provide technical leadership, eh? ;-)
  166. MattJ nods
  167. ralphm stpeter: yeah
  168. ralphm (I have been discussing stuff with fippo earlier today)
  169. m&m who on the council wants to drive this?
  170. Dave Cridland Assign it to Kev. :-)
  171. m&m ralphm is tentatively volunteered? (-:
  172. Tobias heh
  173. stpeter heh
  174. ralphm I am interested in the space, but haven't been involved in Jingle at all
  175. m&m Dave Cridland: I had considered it (-:
  176. MattJ I know nothing about SDP, WebRTC, or any of stuff... and I fear I don't have the time to spend figuring it out
  177. MattJ I think this applies to many in the XMPP community (and council...)
  178. ralphm so I'd really need backing from people in our community that actually build stuff or at least know how to balance the issues involved
  179. Dave Cridland I can make a suggestion - the Council's well within its rights to delegate this to a small design/leadership team.
  180. fippo right... the problem of the xmpp community has always been that people didn't want to touch this media stuff
  181. m&m I was about to suggest that, Dave
  182. ralphm but I do feel this is a rare change to make a difference
  183. MattJ Dave Cridland, i.e. fippo? :)
  184. m&m starting with you and fippo!
  185. fippo and hopefully emil ivov!
  186. Dave Cridland I'm no more qualified than anyone else here.
  187. Tobias right...were nearly getting to the point where jingle ft works and is deployed :)
  188. m&m Dave Cridland: every group needs a chair
  189. ralphm I also note that we have Cisco people in our ranks
  190. ralphm that we should draft
  191. Dave Cridland Actually that's not a bad idea, I can chair it if you like. I'm effectively neutral on the issues.
  192. fippo the council even has a carbons expert and i think we'll need carbons (-:
  193. m&m I don't remember how official something like this needs to be
  194. stpeter true on carbons
  195. m&m fippo: sure
  196. stpeter maybe this is a good topic for discussion at the meetup in Berlin?
  197. ralphm I'd join in, too
  198. stpeter the webrtc situation should be clearer by then
  199. ralphm it has been a while since we created a SIG
  200. stpeter not that we need to wait
  201. m&m I've not been involved in the A/V club, though
  202. stpeter heh
  203. fippo stpeter: no bet on the situation
  204. stpeter and Emil will be in Berlin, too
  205. stpeter and other folks
  206. fippo m&m: this is about signalling
  207. Dave Cridland stpeter, In as much as I've followed the WebRTC stuff, I think the earliest it'll resolve is after Berlin. Probably not until after the next IETF.
  208. m&m fippo: it's been awhile since I've been involved in signalling (-:
  209. stpeter Tobias: about Jingle FT, yeah I agree
  210. m&m I can try to find some time to help, but I'm almost to a point of saturation as it is
  211. fippo you don't necessarily need experience with the media stuff, shuffling around some payload and deliver it in the right order is the bigger issue
  212. ralphm I do believe it is good to start forming opinions before Berlin, though
  213. stpeter there are other things Jingle can do beyond a/v
  214. stpeter ralphm: agreed
  215. m&m stpeter: true
  216. stpeter another approach, which we discussed a bit in Brussels, is to have Jingle-SDP
  217. m&m ok, give me a moment to try and focus here
  218. ralphm actually, one of the first things people want after audio/video is side channels
  219. ralphm like 'chat'
  220. stpeter ralphm: yes, very much so
  221. stpeter and the RTT stuff
  222. fippo ralphm: and that is the point where a full protocol stack kicks any of the webrtc samples
  223. ralphm indeed
  224. m&m so, we have a SIG
  225. m&m Dave Cridland to chair
  226. fippo other than the cube slam stuff probably
  227. m&m and we have a number of interested parties
  228. fippo can we reuse the jingle@ list?
  229. ralphm http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0002.html
  230. m&m I was about to ask
  231. ralphm sure
  232. m&m ralphm: proto-SIG (-:
  233. m&m exploratory committee?
  234. m&m anyway
  235. stpeter ah, XEP-0002 :-)
  236. stpeter the early days
  237. MattJ :)
  238. ralphm well, that's where we derive this particular super power from
  239. Tobias the...more bureaucratic days....
  240. Lance i have to run, but I volunteer for the SIG as well
  241. ralphm cool
  242. m&m focus people! I want to end this!
  243. stpeter such enthusiasm, such hope, such naïveté
  244. stpeter heh
  245. ralphm stpeter: thanks
  246. stpeter ok, shall we take this to the jingle@ list?
  247. Tobias yeah
  248. Dave Cridland Sounds good.
  249. m&m let's just call it a committee, and use jingle@ to move forward
  250. ralphm Yeah
  251. Tobias m&m, +1
  252. stpeter m&m: +1
  253. MattJ +1
  254. m&m the official SIG-forming XEP can come sometime later
  255. stpeter yep
  256. stpeter agreed
  257. ralphm cool
  258. Dave Cridland I don't think you need to make a XEP to make a SIG. We're not the IETF, you know.
  259. m&m Dave Cridland: "Anyone (not limited to members of the XMPP Standards Foundation) may propose the formation of a SIG by completing a XMPP Extension Protocol outlining the need for the SIG and its proposed focus."
  260. ralphm Right
  261. m&m so, in some aspects, we are
  262. ralphm I propose we form a SIG for WebRTC/Jingle
  263. fippo m&m: shall I write one?
  264. ralphm there
  265. ralphm Guess we voted above
  266. m&m right
  267. ralphm Yay, SIG in place
  268. stpeter heh
  269. m&m fippo: "the official SIG-forming XEP can come sometime later" (-:
  270. Dave Cridland m&m, That says that people may propose a SIG by a XEP, not that a XEP is required.
  271. fippo i even had http://hancke.name/jabber/jingle-hill prepared...
  272. m&m Dave Cridland: eh, true
  273. Tobias any other things?
  274. fippo but that assumed i would have to defend the jingle hill against the sox guys :-)
  275. m&m ok, so we have a SIG, and we've all voted ok (I suppose Kev gets a fortnight to object)
  276. ralphm fippo: I guess you get to do that on the list
  277. Dave Cridland m&m, Peter was sloppier in his standardese back then, we can take full advantage. :-)
  278. m&m oh, yes … +1 to the SIG
  279. stpeter heehee
  280. ralphm +1, obviously
  281. stpeter Dave Cridland: that was before I drank the IETF kool-aid
  282. m&m hah
  283. Dave Cridland stpeter, Remember, you're part of the IETF establishment, now.
  284. m&m just for the minutes ...
  285. stpeter Dave Cridland: yeah, I'm part of the problem for sure!
  286. ralphm Guess that's it
  287. ralphm yay
  288. stpeter sheesh, Kev is gone for a week and we have a palace revolt!
  289. m&m SIG leaders are Dave Cridland (chair), Philipp Hancke, Lance Stout, and Ralph Meijer?
  290. ralphm I'm sure Kev will be delighted what happened in his absence
  291. ralphm m&m: yeah
  292. stpeter :)
  293. m&m ok
  294. Tobias haha
  295. m&m then I think we're done
  296. m&m bang gavel … 15 minutes late
  297. Tobias cya & thanks m&m
  298. m&m thanks to all
  299. ralphm Thanks!
  300. m&m now to work on my other chair (-:
  301. m&m minutes will be out presently
  302. ralphm Talking about chairs, guess who gets to write an e-mail now
  303. stpeter m&m: thanks for chairing!
  304. MattJ +1, thanks :)
  305. ralphm cheers for Dave
  306. stpeter :)
  307. Dave Cridland ralphm, I think I should probably wait until Kev states his opinion.
  308. m&m if I run for the next council, maybe I'll ask to chair that session
  309. m&m (-:
  310. ralphm Dave Cridland: that'd be civil, indeed
  311. stpeter now what I want to know is, what does this have to do with that atramentous software Dave works on these days?
  312. Dave Cridland "atramentous"?
  313. ralphm pretty much nothing
  314. stpeter heehee
  315. stpeter love that word
  316. stpeter it means "inky black"
  317. ralphm is in e-mail these days, too
  318. Dave Cridland That's excellent.
  319. Dave Cridland I normally refer to it as Cthulu-Mail, but that's possibly better.
  320. ralphm I'm not sure if I want my e-mail client to be light-sucking
  321. stpeter I'd prefer that a lot of my email disappear on the other side of the event horizon ;-)
  322. fippo stpeter: inky will sort your emails by relevane!
  323. fippo relevance
  324. stpeter Inky does it all, eh?
  325. stpeter might need to give it a try :-)
  326. Dave Cridland stpeter, I'm hurt that you haven't already.
  327. stpeter Dave Cridland: I seem to be stuck in an email rut with Thunderbird :-)
  328. MattJ It's not open-source, is it? :/
  329. Dave Cridland MattJ, Nope. It's Cthulu-mail, it'll eat your soul.
  330. MattJ I'm afraid it's going to take quite something to get me move to another hosted provider
  331. Dave Cridland MattJ, It doesn't host your mail; it's just an IMAP client.
  332. MattJ Hmm, ok
  333. MattJ But IMAP from The Cloud?
  334. MattJ or IMAP from my local machine?
  335. Dave Cridland MattJ, IMAP from your machine. Arcode/Inky never gets to see your mail, all the magic processing happens on your laptop.
  336. Dave Cridland MattJ, Architecturally, it's all very '90's.
  337. MattJ Then what is the "Cloud-Enabled" part about? :)
  338. Tobias Dave Cridland, any e2ee (PGP/S/MINE) support coming? :)
  339. Tobias *MIME
  340. Dave Cridland MattJ, Configuration and things.
  341. MattJ Ok
  342. m&m "and things"
  343. stpeter flags http://hancke.name/jabber/jingle-hill for reading after his next conference call
  344. Dave Cridland Tobias, We'd like to.
  345. Tobias Dave Cridland, so ACAP didn't succeed? :)
  346. m&m hands Dave a compress for that burn
  347. Dave Cridland m&m, Yeah, we actually keep your credentials in the cloud, encrypted using a key derived from SRP on your Inky password, so we don't even have the ability to read that one.
  348. Dave Cridland And as for ACAP, I've not yet converted Inky. But soon, soon... Muahahahaha!
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  351. fippo stpeter: i suppose cullen (is he called dr fluffy now?) will really appreciate the request to produce a definition of a webrtc sdp :-)
  352. stpeter fluffy has always been his nick, AFAIK
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  354. fippo stpeter: right, but his bangok slides have a "dr" in front of his realname which he either recently acquired or omitted from other slides.
  355. stpeter yes he has a PhD
  356. Dave Cridland stpeter, We're considering calling our next release "Atramentous Cephelopod", now.
  357. stpeter most excellent!
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  360. fippo stpeter: you could have told us that stox basically also has an jingle<->sdp mapping issue ;-)
  361. stpeter fippo: yeah, I think that item might get dropped from the charter
  362. fippo well, to me it does make little difference whether it's done at the ietf or the xsf
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  364. stpeter fippo: well, as I said on the STOX list just now, there's a lot of flux here and it will be interesting to see how it all ends up -- but our little SIG at the XSF might be part of the story :-)
  365. fippo right
  366. stpeter I'd like to hear what developers really care about -- e.g., is SDP really going away for end-to-end communication?
  367. fippo i'm not sure what the guys over at rtcweb have for use-cases
  368. fippo but for anything 1-1 telephony, file transfer o/a is the way to go imo
  369. fippo groupchat/conference is harder, but plan b or no plan (my favorite now) provide everything necessary
  370. fippo i doubt that anyone can come up with something that is less painful than sdp
  371. stpeter yeah, agreed!
  372. fippo and heck
  373. fippo it only took me three days to do trickle ice with pranswer
  374. MattJ I think it took me less time to implement dialback
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  377. fippo dialback is sane compared to trickle + pranswer ;-)
  378. fippo stpeter: is STOX meeting in berlin?
  379. ralphm fippo: IETF 87 is in Berlin, yes
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