-
m&m
T - 10 minutes
-
stpeter
sigh, I broke my Prosody installation at stpeter.im last night, I suppose I'll use jabber.org :-)
-
m&m
oy
-
m&m
how did you break it? I find that difficult to do (-:
-
stpeter
yeah
-
stpeter
m&m dependency madness in debian
-
m&m
hmm
-
stpeter
trying to upgrade to Prosody 0.9rc3
-
m&m
ok, we're two minutes late
-
m&m
I just pinged MattJ and Ralph
- MattJ wonders why he seems m&m as offline
-
m&m
hrmph
- MattJ wonders why he sees m&m as offline
-
m&m
I have no idea
-
m&m
anyway
- m&m bangs gavel to start
-
m&m
1) Roll call
-
MattJ
Here
-
m&m
presente
-
m&m
Tobias?
-
Tobias
there
-
m&m
well, that's a quorum
-
m&m
2) Proposed XEP: SOX < http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/sox.html > Accept as Experimental?
- fippo would love to see this accepted
-
m&m
I think it's fine as a starting point
-
m&m
no objections from me
-
stpeter
it's worth debating, anyway -- although discussion on the rtcweb@ietf.org indicates that even the use of SDP is in flux at in the WebRTC world
-
fippo
a starting point for a discussion about jingle and sox, but we can/should discuss that under AOB
-
Tobias
i have no objections either
-
m&m
MattJ?
-
MattJ
Grr, sorry, power cut
-
MattJ
I'm +1
-
m&m
Kev and Ralph have a fortnight to raise objections
-
m&m
3) Proposed XEP: Chat Markers < http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/chat-markers.html > Accept (revision) as Experimental?
-
MattJ
+1
-
Tobias
+1
-
m&m
no objections from me
-
m&m
Kev and Ralph again have a fortnight to object
-
m&m
4) Date of Next Meeting
-
Peter Waher
question?
-
m&m
sure
-
m&m
can it wait for AOB?
-
Peter Waher
I have made revisions to 2 proto-XEPs
-
Peter Waher
and would like you to consider advancing them to Experimental
-
m&m
Peter Waher: we can discuss in AOB
-
Peter Waher
the color field type, and HTTP over XMPP
-
m&m
right after this
-
Peter Waher
what is AOB?
-
m&m
just confirming some/most plan to make it
-
m&m
Any Other Business
-
Peter Waher
ok
-
m&m
I'll take silence as acceptance
-
m&m
5) Any other Business
-
fippo
sox has raised some questions on how we proceed with jingle...
-
m&m
Peter Waher: did you submit your revisions to the XEP editor?
-
Tobias
m&m, so same time next week?
-
m&m
Tobias: yes
-
Peter Waher
yes
-
Peter Waher
and to the standards list
-
m&m
Tobias: treat the "Date of Next Meeting" as a "un-rsvp" (-:
-
stpeter
I'm wondering if we need a new XEP editor
- m&m cracks whip @ XEP editor
-
Tobias
stpeter, or split the work up
-
m&m
I didn't add HTTP/XMPP to the agenda as I hadn't seen an update to the officail inbox
-
m&m
official
-
stpeter
m&m yes that my bad
-
Lance
Tobias: or make an editorbot
-
MattJ
:D
-
m&m
heh
-
fippo
stpeter: your skill is wasted as editor. you need to get a secretary
-
stpeter
heh
-
ralphm
hi
-
m&m
well, this seems a fitting discussion for council
-
ralphm
sorry for being late
-
MattJ
My internet is going on/off :/
-
m&m
so, stpeter, how would you want the XEP editor role filled?
-
m&m
MattJ: ugh
-
ralphm
no objections to the protocol-xeps
-
stpeter
m&m: probably it makes sense to write a job description and ask for volunteers
-
m&m
ralphm: noted
-
m&m
stpeter: ok, since you're kind of overloaded now, maybe we can work that out between us (-:
-
ralphm
hi Dave
-
fippo
i think it's about offloading some of the work... stpeter isn't the only one who can judge things like typo-patches
-
stpeter
we do have http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-README.html
-
m&m
Peter Waher: as to your request…once we get those updated XEPs into the inbox, I'm sure we can get them moved forward
-
stpeter
so that's a kind of job desciption to some extent
-
ralphm
There was talk about pull requests earlier. stpeter: would that make things better?
-
m&m
stpeter: that works for me
-
Peter Waher
thanks
-
Dave Cridland
stpeter, Any idea which parts of your XEP Editor role are causing the most effort, and which you'd be most uncomfortable delegating?
-
stpeter
Dave Cridland: right, I shall give some thought to that and report back to the Council/Board
-
ralphm
awesome
-
Tobias
great
-
m&m
sounds like a plan
-
ralphm
I noted that fippo brought up a point about Jingle
-
m&m
I'll note that for next week's agenda, for the real chair (-:
-
stpeter
also, it might help to give more people git access (or it might not)
-
m&m
fippo: your turn!
-
ralphm
stpeter: (or you just merge in commits, pull requests)
-
fippo
ok... we've all heard how google (or at least a spokesperson) thinks that audio and video is not well integrated into xmpp.
-
fippo
and sox is, to some extend, running in parallel with jingle
-
stpeter
ralphm: yes, I already do that, my problem is that I have too much to do, people at Cisco expect me to work on internal projects these days, I have 20 Internet-Drafts to get finished, and I'm even writing some Python code these days related to internationalization ;-)
-
fippo
and with all the webrtc stuff happening we ought to make sure that webrtc and jingle work together really great
-
Dave Cridland
This seems like a sensible direction, yes.
-
m&m
fippo: ok, so what do you want the council to do?
-
stpeter
fippo: I totally agree -- although webrtc is rather a moving target right now :-)
-
fippo
m&m: until yesterday it was a question of "webrtc uses sdp. jingle doesn't. do we continue to do our own effort"
-
fippo
but then people over at rtcweb wanted to reopen that discussion
-
Dave Cridland
Right, but there's now an endless thread on whether or not WebRTC should use SDP, or at least expose it at all.
-
stpeter
yes, it's quite interesting reading
-
ralphm
indeed
-
fippo
especially that one guy working on a large system built around jingle ;-)
-
Dave Cridland
Right. :-)
-
ralphm
and it really affects what we would like to push for
-
ralphm
apparently that large system doesn't (want to) use SDP at all
-
stpeter
ralphm: yes!
-
fippo
there are some current problems in jingle and sox even addresses some of them
-
ralphm
we have been discussing translating to/from SDP to 'pure' jingle
-
fippo
and of course there is the translation issue
-
ralphm
it seems some people want to ditch SDP and/or offer/answer from the API, leaving it up to signalling protocols entirely
-
fippo
(and i've had a really great day. worked around a crasher bug in chrome and had to reintroduce proprietary elements to the mapping)
-
stpeter
fippo: ouch
-
ralphm
I can see how having browsers generating SDP can be bad for forward compatibility
-
Tobias
m&m, is this still official meeting part over?
-
ralphm
Tobias: not sure
-
m&m
I hadn't banged the gavel yet
-
ralphm
I wonder if we should steer this process from our point of view
-
fippo
ralphm: and that is what i want the council to do ;-)
-
ralphm
'our' being the XMPP community in general and the council in particular
-
stpeter
yes, the Council is there to provide technical leadership, eh? ;-)
- MattJ nods
-
ralphm
stpeter: yeah
-
ralphm
(I have been discussing stuff with fippo earlier today)
-
m&m
who on the council wants to drive this?
-
Dave Cridland
Assign it to Kev. :-)
-
m&m
ralphm is tentatively volunteered? (-:
-
Tobias
heh
-
stpeter
heh
-
ralphm
I am interested in the space, but haven't been involved in Jingle at all
-
m&m
Dave Cridland: I had considered it (-:
-
MattJ
I know nothing about SDP, WebRTC, or any of stuff... and I fear I don't have the time to spend figuring it out
-
MattJ
I think this applies to many in the XMPP community (and council...)
-
ralphm
so I'd really need backing from people in our community that actually build stuff or at least know how to balance the issues involved
-
Dave Cridland
I can make a suggestion - the Council's well within its rights to delegate this to a small design/leadership team.
-
fippo
right... the problem of the xmpp community has always been that people didn't want to touch this media stuff
-
m&m
I was about to suggest that, Dave
-
ralphm
but I do feel this is a rare change to make a difference
-
MattJ
Dave Cridland, i.e. fippo? :)
-
m&m
starting with you and fippo!
-
fippo
and hopefully emil ivov!
-
Dave Cridland
I'm no more qualified than anyone else here.
-
Tobias
right...were nearly getting to the point where jingle ft works and is deployed :)
-
m&m
Dave Cridland: every group needs a chair
-
ralphm
I also note that we have Cisco people in our ranks
-
ralphm
that we should draft
-
Dave Cridland
Actually that's not a bad idea, I can chair it if you like. I'm effectively neutral on the issues.
-
fippo
the council even has a carbons expert and i think we'll need carbons (-:
-
m&m
I don't remember how official something like this needs to be
-
stpeter
true on carbons
-
m&m
fippo: sure
-
stpeter
maybe this is a good topic for discussion at the meetup in Berlin?
-
ralphm
I'd join in, too
-
stpeter
the webrtc situation should be clearer by then
-
ralphm
it has been a while since we created a SIG
-
stpeter
not that we need to wait
-
m&m
I've not been involved in the A/V club, though
-
stpeter
heh
-
fippo
stpeter: no bet on the situation
-
stpeter
and Emil will be in Berlin, too
-
stpeter
and other folks
-
fippo
m&m: this is about signalling
-
Dave Cridland
stpeter, In as much as I've followed the WebRTC stuff, I think the earliest it'll resolve is after Berlin. Probably not until after the next IETF.
-
m&m
fippo: it's been awhile since I've been involved in signalling (-:
-
stpeter
Tobias: about Jingle FT, yeah I agree
-
m&m
I can try to find some time to help, but I'm almost to a point of saturation as it is
-
fippo
you don't necessarily need experience with the media stuff, shuffling around some payload and deliver it in the right order is the bigger issue
-
ralphm
I do believe it is good to start forming opinions before Berlin, though
-
stpeter
there are other things Jingle can do beyond a/v
-
stpeter
ralphm: agreed
-
m&m
stpeter: true
-
stpeter
another approach, which we discussed a bit in Brussels, is to have Jingle-SDP
-
m&m
ok, give me a moment to try and focus here
-
ralphm
actually, one of the first things people want after audio/video is side channels
-
ralphm
like 'chat'
-
stpeter
ralphm: yes, very much so
-
stpeter
and the RTT stuff
-
fippo
ralphm: and that is the point where a full protocol stack kicks any of the webrtc samples
-
ralphm
indeed
-
m&m
so, we have a SIG
-
m&m
Dave Cridland to chair
-
fippo
other than the cube slam stuff probably
-
m&m
and we have a number of interested parties
-
fippo
can we reuse the jingle@ list?
-
ralphm
http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0002.html
-
m&m
I was about to ask
-
ralphm
sure
-
m&m
ralphm: proto-SIG (-:
-
m&m
exploratory committee?
-
m&m
anyway
-
stpeter
ah, XEP-0002 :-)
-
stpeter
the early days
-
MattJ
:)
-
ralphm
well, that's where we derive this particular super power from
-
Tobias
the...more bureaucratic days....
-
Lance
i have to run, but I volunteer for the SIG as well
-
ralphm
cool
-
m&m
focus people! I want to end this!
-
stpeter
such enthusiasm, such hope, such naïveté
-
stpeter
heh
-
ralphm
stpeter: thanks
-
stpeter
ok, shall we take this to the jingle@ list?
-
Tobias
yeah
-
Dave Cridland
Sounds good.
-
m&m
let's just call it a committee, and use jingle@ to move forward
-
ralphm
Yeah
-
Tobias
m&m, +1
-
stpeter
m&m: +1
-
MattJ
+1
-
m&m
the official SIG-forming XEP can come sometime later
-
stpeter
yep
-
stpeter
agreed
-
ralphm
cool
-
Dave Cridland
I don't think you need to make a XEP to make a SIG. We're not the IETF, you know.
-
m&m
Dave Cridland: "Anyone (not limited to members of the XMPP Standards Foundation) may propose the formation of a SIG by completing a XMPP Extension Protocol outlining the need for the SIG and its proposed focus."
-
ralphm
Right
-
m&m
so, in some aspects, we are
-
ralphm
I propose we form a SIG for WebRTC/Jingle
-
fippo
m&m: shall I write one?
-
ralphm
there
-
ralphm
Guess we voted above
-
m&m
right
-
ralphm
Yay, SIG in place
-
stpeter
heh
-
m&m
fippo: "the official SIG-forming XEP can come sometime later" (-:
-
Dave Cridland
m&m, That says that people may propose a SIG by a XEP, not that a XEP is required.
-
fippo
i even had http://hancke.name/jabber/jingle-hill prepared...
-
m&m
Dave Cridland: eh, true
-
Tobias
any other things?
-
fippo
but that assumed i would have to defend the jingle hill against the sox guys :-)
-
m&m
ok, so we have a SIG, and we've all voted ok (I suppose Kev gets a fortnight to object)
-
ralphm
fippo: I guess you get to do that on the list
-
Dave Cridland
m&m, Peter was sloppier in his standardese back then, we can take full advantage. :-)
-
m&m
oh, yes … +1 to the SIG
-
stpeter
heehee
-
ralphm
+1, obviously
-
stpeter
Dave Cridland: that was before I drank the IETF kool-aid
-
m&m
hah
-
Dave Cridland
stpeter, Remember, you're part of the IETF establishment, now.
-
m&m
just for the minutes ...
-
stpeter
Dave Cridland: yeah, I'm part of the problem for sure!
-
ralphm
Guess that's it
-
ralphm
yay
-
stpeter
sheesh, Kev is gone for a week and we have a palace revolt!
-
m&m
SIG leaders are Dave Cridland (chair), Philipp Hancke, Lance Stout, and Ralph Meijer?
-
ralphm
I'm sure Kev will be delighted what happened in his absence
-
ralphm
m&m: yeah
-
stpeter
:)
-
m&m
ok
-
Tobias
haha
-
m&m
then I think we're done
- m&m bang gavel … 15 minutes late
-
Tobias
cya & thanks m&m
-
m&m
thanks to all
-
ralphm
Thanks!
-
m&m
now to work on my other chair (-:
-
m&m
minutes will be out presently
-
ralphm
Talking about chairs, guess who gets to write an e-mail now
-
stpeter
m&m: thanks for chairing!
-
MattJ
+1, thanks :)
- ralphm cheers for Dave
-
stpeter
:)
-
Dave Cridland
ralphm, I think I should probably wait until Kev states his opinion.
-
m&m
if I run for the next council, maybe I'll ask to chair that session
-
m&m
(-:
-
ralphm
Dave Cridland: that'd be civil, indeed
-
stpeter
now what I want to know is, what does this have to do with that atramentous software Dave works on these days?
-
Dave Cridland
"atramentous"?
-
ralphm
pretty much nothing
-
stpeter
heehee
-
stpeter
love that word
-
stpeter
it means "inky black"
- ralphm is in e-mail these days, too
-
Dave Cridland
That's excellent.
-
Dave Cridland
I normally refer to it as Cthulu-Mail, but that's possibly better.
-
ralphm
I'm not sure if I want my e-mail client to be light-sucking
-
stpeter
I'd prefer that a lot of my email disappear on the other side of the event horizon ;-)
-
fippo
stpeter: inky will sort your emails by relevane!
-
fippo
relevance
-
stpeter
Inky does it all, eh?
-
stpeter
might need to give it a try :-)
-
Dave Cridland
stpeter, I'm hurt that you haven't already.
-
stpeter
Dave Cridland: I seem to be stuck in an email rut with Thunderbird :-)
-
MattJ
It's not open-source, is it? :/
-
Dave Cridland
MattJ, Nope. It's Cthulu-mail, it'll eat your soul.
-
MattJ
I'm afraid it's going to take quite something to get me move to another hosted provider
-
Dave Cridland
MattJ, It doesn't host your mail; it's just an IMAP client.
-
MattJ
Hmm, ok
-
MattJ
But IMAP from The Cloud?
-
MattJ
or IMAP from my local machine?
-
Dave Cridland
MattJ, IMAP from your machine. Arcode/Inky never gets to see your mail, all the magic processing happens on your laptop.
-
Dave Cridland
MattJ, Architecturally, it's all very '90's.
-
MattJ
Then what is the "Cloud-Enabled" part about? :)
-
Tobias
Dave Cridland, any e2ee (PGP/S/MINE) support coming? :)
-
Tobias
*MIME
-
Dave Cridland
MattJ, Configuration and things.
-
MattJ
Ok
-
m&m
"and things"
- stpeter flags http://hancke.name/jabber/jingle-hill for reading after his next conference call
-
Dave Cridland
Tobias, We'd like to.
-
Tobias
Dave Cridland, so ACAP didn't succeed? :)
- m&m hands Dave a compress for that burn
-
Dave Cridland
m&m, Yeah, we actually keep your credentials in the cloud, encrypted using a key derived from SRP on your Inky password, so we don't even have the ability to read that one.
-
Dave Cridland
And as for ACAP, I've not yet converted Inky. But soon, soon... Muahahahaha!
-
fippo
stpeter: i suppose cullen (is he called dr fluffy now?) will really appreciate the request to produce a definition of a webrtc sdp :-)
-
stpeter
fluffy has always been his nick, AFAIK
-
fippo
stpeter: right, but his bangok slides have a "dr" in front of his realname which he either recently acquired or omitted from other slides.
-
stpeter
yes he has a PhD
-
Dave Cridland
stpeter, We're considering calling our next release "Atramentous Cephelopod", now.
-
stpeter
most excellent!
-
fippo
stpeter: you could have told us that stox basically also has an jingle<->sdp mapping issue ;-)
-
stpeter
fippo: yeah, I think that item might get dropped from the charter
-
fippo
well, to me it does make little difference whether it's done at the ietf or the xsf
-
stpeter
fippo: well, as I said on the STOX list just now, there's a lot of flux here and it will be interesting to see how it all ends up -- but our little SIG at the XSF might be part of the story :-)
-
fippo
right
-
stpeter
I'd like to hear what developers really care about -- e.g., is SDP really going away for end-to-end communication?
-
fippo
i'm not sure what the guys over at rtcweb have for use-cases
-
fippo
but for anything 1-1 telephony, file transfer o/a is the way to go imo
-
fippo
groupchat/conference is harder, but plan b or no plan (my favorite now) provide everything necessary
-
fippo
i doubt that anyone can come up with something that is less painful than sdp
-
stpeter
yeah, agreed!
-
fippo
and heck
-
fippo
it only took me three days to do trickle ice with pranswer
-
MattJ
I think it took me less time to implement dialback
-
fippo
dialback is sane compared to trickle + pranswer ;-)
-
fippo
stpeter: is STOX meeting in berlin?
-
ralphm
fippo: IETF 87 is in Berlin, yes