KevI'm flat out, and have no hope of following up with Council actions, or an agenda, before this afternoon.
KevIs there a meeting as usual?
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MattJI need to not use a fixed resource
MattJSeems I was a ghost here, but poezio just let me know I was receiving unexpected messages
Kev:)
KevDoesn't really answer my question, though.
MattJI've no idea what your question was :)
MattJI see no room history
MattJfor some reason
KevI'm flat out, and have no hope of following up with Council actions, or an agenda, before this afternoon. Kev @ 13:44
Is there a meeting as usual? 13:44
MattJI think poezio has hidden it
KevI'm not sure that answered the question either :p
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KevWell, I assume there is and I'll try and be here, although timing is going to be even tighter than usual.
KevI may need to consider asking to move Council a little in the future.
m&myes, there is a meeting today
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stpeterbrb
stpeterback
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m&mit looks like we're missing a Kev
m&mwell, lacking the attention of a Kev (-:
stpeterhehe
Dave CridlandYou can get one on Amazon, I think.
Tobiasbut don't get one of the used ones
m&mof course not!
m&mit also looks like we're lacking the attention of a MattJ
Dave CridlandYeah, you want a new one, not the dodgy ones on Marketplace.
MattJI'm here now
m&mand we're missing a Ralphm
KevI'm here.
KevI dropped MattJ a mail saying I was going to be 5mins late.
stpeteris Ralph on holiday?
Kevhe was the only person I had the address of in my phone.
m&mI don't recall
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KevWe don't actually have anything to discuss today though, do we?
Peter Waherhttp over XMPP
KevOther than a shedload of outstanding stuff from last week, probably, that I've not even got to opening the mail of.
Peter Wahercolor field type
m&mhaha
Dave CridlandKev, Basically we can fill you in on what happened last week.
Dave CridlandKev, We volunteered you for lots of stuff when you weren't looking. ;-)
m&mTL;DR — you are now responsible for deciding our future with Jingle
m&mand the rest of the Free World™®
stpeterheehee
KevExcellent.
KevI feel suitably qualified for this responsibility.
m&mwe thought you would
m&m(-:
KevI have, after all, used Fippo's web demo thing.
m&malso, you're now XEP Editor, reporting to stpeter
stpeterlaughs
KevExcellent, I see no problems with that either.
KevAnything else?
Dave CridlandKev, My kitchen
stpeteroh, and I'm now Executive Director Emeritus, you're in charge!
m&m1) we formed a SIG to determine how media ought to be signaled in the future
m&m2) Peter isn't able to keep up, and was to report to us (council? board?) on what he thinks we can do about it
Dave Cridlandm&m, Well, you guys agreed to form a SIG; I'm awaiting Kev's input there before claiming we've actually formed it.
KevI assume this is in the minutes and I just need to find sufficient time to read some of my mail from the last week and vote on stuff.
m&mKev: yes, but since we having a low latency connection to you now ...
stpeterright
KevTrue enough.
m&mDave Cridland: fair point
KevOK, let's find that mail as I have 30mins assigned to Council now anyway.
KevOh, that's surprising. Still on my first page.
m&mheh
Kev5.3) SIG sounds like a good idea.
KevI have a significant interest in this, albeit little useful knowledge.
Dave CridlandKev, Happy with me as chair? Not that I have a *clue* what a SIG chair ought to be doing, so I'll make that one up on the fly if there's nothing in bylaws or XEPs about it.
Kev5.2) I suspect having a nominated XEP Editor, but a team of minions who just get on and do stuff would be sensible, and have editor@ be an alias to go to several (Possibly including Council Chair).
MattJDave Cridland, I don't think anyone else is really clear, so you get to decide what to do
KevDave Cridland: Getting a Rough Consensus™ opinion and reporting it to Council. That's about as far as it goes, I think.
m&messentially hearding cats
m&mherding
KevAnd yes, You're welcome to herd as many cats as you wish.
Dave CridlandKev, And on (5.2), my concern would be ensuring that Peter is happy both delegating tasks and similarly herding the resultant cats.
KevPeter gets to say what he wants, I just have an opinion on what would be sensible.
stpeterI've been causing delays, so it might be reasonable to have a triumvirate of folks who can do things like push new proposals to the inbox
m&mstpeter: that sounds reasonable, and I'm happy with whatever collection of individuals you decide on
Kev5.1 - I thought we had approved Color Forms. HTTP I'll need to review again, I haven't read the new version yet.
KevBut if they're not on the agenda for today, I guess that's next week anyway.
Dave CridlandI'd suggest that the micro-editor folks should not be council, and ideally should be relatively new blood in order to pull some new faces into this end of the XSF.
Kevstpeter: Any reason for a triumvirate, other than it being a fun word?
stpeterno :-)
Dave CridlandKev, It may be his Word Of The Day. Last week it was "Atramentous".
KevWell, I have no idea what the meaning of that is to know if he's misusing it :)
KevAh. My dictionary claims it doesn't exist. I feel vindicated.
stpeterok, any action items here? Kev, did you have opinions on SoX?
stpeterKev: the solution to that is, get a better dictionary
Kevstpeter: I'd have thought SoX it would be sensible to hold off while the Special Group Of Daves form opinions.
stpeterKev: so I take it you're -1 on publishing as a XEP, then :-)
KevI'd rather not, but can be talked around if people feel I'm being unreasonable
stpetershrugs
stpeterit's one input to the SIG
stpeterother proposals might emerge, I'd think
fippokev: sox is different from the whole jingle topic
Kevfippo: Is it, though?
fippokev: if you read it, that is even what the authors say
Dave Cridlandfippo, I think given that it's a VOIP thing, it's certainly related to some degree.
Kevfippo: The preamble says about needing to do it because you can't map the SDP inside a browser to Jingle. That seems quite heavily related.
fipporight. i do think that sox is very useful for dealing with sip hardware (deskphones)
fippoand i don't think jingle will ever be successful there
Dave CridlandIt'd be nice to see if we could address this.
Tobiasis this an official meeting or just bringing kev up to date?
KevIt's an official meeting.
KevAlthough we've moved into getting Kev up to date, what we're discussing seems pertinent.
KevUnless people would like us to officially finish and carry on post-meeting.
stpeteris, shockingly, coding and thus not paying the closest of attention
m&m0.o
Peter WaherI have a small question before you finish
KevSo, I'm largely of the opinion that before pushing out more XEPs about the interaction between SIP/SDP/Jingle or just VOIP in general, we should see what the Band Of Daves have to say.
KevUnless someone has a pressing technical or political reason to publish SOX now.
KevPeter Waher: Shoot
fippostpeter: maybe joe has to give kev the talk he gave us in brussels ;-)
Peter Waherif the color field type xep has been approved, is it possible to assign it a number?
Peter WaherAlso a small comment: I've addressed all comments and suggestions in the HTTP over XMPP XEP. It would be nice to be able to move it to Experimental
TobiasKev, just asking since i didn't see roll call and stuff
Peter Waherwhen you're ready
stpeterfippo: yeah
KevPeter Waher: If I'm right, and no-one objected, we can give it a number. For HTTP it needs another vote.
Peter Waherthanks
KevOh, I owe comments on RTT too, for the LC. Bother.
m&m|-:
stpeterPeter Waher: I think you're correct about the color spec, let's check the history here....
KevAh, I see that stpeter did publish the new http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/http-over-xmpp.html - I just didn't notice it inside another thread.
stpeterKev: yes
KevThat's one to vote on next week, then.
KevAnyway, we're at time.
KevTobias: m&m called Roles at the start.
KevDate of next meeting?
KevI'm going to be continually late from now on if we keep them at 15:00, I think.
KevMoving somewhere 15:15 or 15:30 would be much easier for me.
TobiasKev, ahh..didn't notice it then...nvm
stpeterat http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/council/2013-June/003716.html I see:
> 3) ProtoXEP: Data Forms - Color Field Type < http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/color-parameter.html >
> Accept as Experimental?
>
> RM, TM, MW have no objections. MM has objections (prefixing of XEP-0122 elements). Author(s) to submit a revision correcting XEP-0122 use.
> KS have one fortnight to note objections.
(KEV:) Not relevant as MM has blocked.
stpeterm&m: were your concerns addressed?
m&myes, and I said as much on one of the lists
Peter WaherI responded to the standards list and MM revoked his objection
KevAh, yes. I didn't have objections to this.
MattJI can't do 15:30
MattJI can probably do 15:00
KevMattJ: 15:00 is what we do now.
Dave CridlandMattJ, UTC.
MattJThat is so
m&manything at 16:00 or later is too difficult for me
stpeterwould another day work better for your gentlemen?
MattJMy gentlemen would be ok with another day
MattJthey said
KevPretty much any time in the work week other than 14:00 to 15:15 on a Wednesday would probably be fine for me.
m&mMy gentlemen do not exist, but my hooligans think Monday or Thursday works fine
KevIs there anyone that couldn't do it if we simply moved it back (later) 15mins?
MattJ+15 is fine with me
stpeterPeter Waher: verified at http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2013-June/027640.html
KevNone of the 'can't do' above covered this, I think.
Dave CridlandWhen's the Board meeting these days?
m&m15:15 would overlap other meetings I have
KevDave Cridland: Nonexistent? :)
stpeterm&m: even if Council is 15 minutes? ;-)
Dave CridlandKev, Ah.
Tobias+15 wfm
KevHow about 15:10, and keep it to 20mins?
m&mIFF council were switched to a 15 minute meeting, then I think it would usually work
KevI'm only ever so slightly not able to make 15:00, 10mins would cover it.
Peter WaherRegarding color field type: http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2013-June/027640.html
m&m15:10 works for me
KevPeter Waher: Yes, stpeter linked that a few minutes ago.
Peter Wahersaw that too late :)
KevOK. Let's go for 15:10 and hope I can be less rubbish at that than at 15:00.
KevAny other business?
Tobiasok
MattJOk
Dave CridlandOh, two things for this SIG - it doesn't have a name, currently, nor any terms of reference beyond "We should look at Jingle properly and see about making it work better with WebRTC".
m&mJingle: The Next Iteration?
KevName, rose, sweet, etc.
Kev"Future Jingle SIG"
Dave CridlandSOunds good.
KevAnything else?
Tobiasor short Fingle
m&mFuture Understanding of Signalling (FUS)
MattJ"Life After Google"
KevI suggest that the SIG can choose a suitable name as its first item and we can avoid doing it here :)
fippoi'd prefer FUSS ;-)
KevBut, for the record, blue.
KevRight, I think we're done.
KevThanks all.
Kevbangs the gavel.
m&mFuture Understanding of Signaling Specifications
m&mthere
MattJThanks Kev
Dave Cridland(I'm trying to figure out a backronym for FUJ, now)
m&mgoes on to json
Tobiasyay
m&mFuture Undermining of Jingle
MattJFear, Uncertainty and Jingle
stpeterheh
m&mnice
stpeterPeter Waher: the color XEP will be published imminently
Peter Waherthanks :)
stpeterdone
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stpeterLance: aw, you missed all the fun! ;-)
jabberjockestpeter: could you add the key for me to keep it updated as work proceed
stpeterjabberjocke: I would prefer for Peter to update his own specifications -- if he would like to make you a co-author on all of the specs, then I'd be happy with having you do the check-ins, but if not then it would be best for Peter to learn about git so that he can check in his own changes
stpeterit feels strange to me for someone who is not an author to be checking in code/text for someone else
jabberjockeok we'd better do some education :)
stpeterhehe
stpeterit's good to know about source control anyway
stpetersource control is your friend :-)
jabberjockewould gladly help out in some of that tedious work you have, which you mentioned last council
stpeterwow, I just received my first-ever spam message in Latvian
stpeterjabberjocke: yes, I need to think about how we can structure the work, and I really appreciate the fact that you've volunteered!
stpeterjabberjocke: I will report about that at next week's meeting
stpeteror before, on the standards@ list
Lancestpeter: i always miss the fun meetings :/
fippolance: we can have a fun meeting where we decide how to remote-control a camera over jingle (-:
Lanceadhoc commands. done
stpetergoes back to his Python coding
fippodoh, i hadn't considered that one
Lancethat would fit nicely with the existing remote controlling clients xeps
stpeternods to Lance
jabberjockestpeter throw an email a bit busy next week or i just check the loggs
stpeterjabberjocke: ok!
fipporight, but it's part of and associated with the jingle session. heh, we now have an sig where we can discuss that
Peter Waherfippo: PS: Just as a side comment: Controlling web cameras is one of the use cases of the IoT-control XEP, and is more documented on the soon-to-be-published-but-available-on-the-wiiki protoXEP IoT Interoperability.
stpeterPeter Waher: cool :-)
fippoyai!
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dwdFolks,
The XMPP Council has formed a new SIG as per XEP-0002.
The terms of reference are to re-examine Jingle particularly in the light of technology shifts such as WebRTC, newer proprietary products, and so on, and see what extensions and potential changes we might make to Jingle to make it an attractive platform to build upon. The SIG will create a coherent technical direction as a written document (probably a XEP), and may submit one or more concrete extensions as XEPs for the Standards SIG to consider.
SIGs have a chair role and some leaders - roughly equivalent to Kevin Smith and the XMPP Council's roles respectively - this leadership is chosen, and serves, at the Council's discretion and currently comprises of:
Dave Cridland (Chair)
Philipp Hancke
Ralph Meijer
Lance Stout
The leadership is primarily there to act as a final judge of the technical quality of the directions the SIG gives, and ensure that suggestions and comments do not slip below the radar. Since it is subject to change, if you'd be able to pitch in, please let either me or the XMPP Council know.
Dave CridlandThat's what I have written as a draft to send to the jingle@ list. Any comments or objections?
fippo'+1
Lance+1
stpeterWFM
Dave CridlandKev, ?
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fippoif emil ivov was awake i would immediately recruit him
stpeterLance: thanks for the Python feedback, I'm in the midst of a more general refactor at the moment, too ;-)
KevDave Cridland: I would note that the desired output is a plan to ensure we can maintain interoperability across device types using XMPP.
KevAlthough not necessarily with those words.
KevThat is: My big concern with things like SoX, SDPoJ and legacy Jingle is that we start creating interop zones where phones can interop with SIP but not with Jingle, browsers can only interop with each other, etc.
KevI would like us to have A Plan, rather than three competing plans.
fippokev: sox is more for cusax scenarios i think
m&mwow, I think I'll need to declare bankruptcy on this topic sooner than I thought
stpeterbankruptcy?
m&mthat I can't follow this topic with the attention it needs (-:
Peter WaherRegarding camera control, using IoT-Sensor-data & IoT-control, check the XMPP.IoT.Media.Camera interface in the Interoperability protoXEP: http://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/joachimlindborg/XMPP-IoT/blob/master/xep-0000-IoT-Interoperability.html
fippom&m: you guys might simply merge my pull request on dna and be done with that ;-)
Kevm&m: I really would like to have the cycles this deserves.
stpeterfippo: IMHO, SoX is useful when you have a mixed infrastructure of SIP-only endpoints and XMPP-only endpoints (and perhaps even CUSAX endpoints), and you don't want a stateful gateway / translator in the middle
dwdThe XMPP Council has formed a new Special Interest Group ("SIG") as per XEP-0002, called the "Future Jingle SIG".
The terms of reference are to re-examine Jingle particularly in the light of technology shifts such as WebRTC, newer proprietary products, and so on, and see what extensions and potential changes we might make to Jingle to make it an attractive platform to build upon, which will maximize interoperability across a wide range of devices and environments. The SIG will create a coherent technical direction as a written document (probably a XEP), and may submit one or more concrete extensions as XEPs for the Standards SIG to consider.
Dave CridlandNew paras to address Kev's comment. And actually say what a SIG is.
KevDave Cridland: That's great by me, thanks.
stpeterpersonally, I would like to get the SoX proposal published as a XEP, and encourage other proposals as well so that we can have documentation of the various approaches (just as we did years ago for pubsub)
stpeterbut I've always been in favor of publishing and not leaving things in the inbox
stpetershrugs
stpeterback to Python... :-)
jabberjockefippo: you have a link to the pull request
stpeteroh and hmph, I need to get my Prosody server running again...
fippojabberjocke: the dna (domain name assertions) one?
Kevstpeter: I'm not opposed to publishing SoX in the same way we did DMUCs with a "This is published as a discussion point to inform the SIG formed for investigation of the future of Jingle. It is not intended to be implemented until/unless the SIG has formed its conclusions" or something.
fippokev: that reminds me that last friday i had to implement dmuc2 ;-)
Kevfippo: Heh.
fippomaybe a new status "for discussion purposes"?
stpeterfippo: they're all for discussion purposes, IMHO
jabberjockefippo: missed you where aiming to m&m
Dave Cridland"Experimental, but this time we really mean it"?
fippobtw: we also need to get rid of this scary red line for xeps that have been deferred because of inactivity...
Dave CridlandHaving XEPs which are broken in Experimental does both encourage people to get them through to Draft, and also avoids the kind of Proposed-Means-Standard thing that's happened at the IETF.
jabberjockeI alos like that fact
KevDave Cridland: It's already happened. Draft means Final.
KevExperimental means Draft, and Deferred means Experimental :)
Kev(Well, kinda)
jabberjockewe are definitely aiming Draft for IoT Xeps
Peter Waher(at least)
Peter WaherIoT architecture & installations have life spans of +10 years, and need to be stable