XMPP Council - 2013-06-26

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  11. Kev

    I'm flat out, and have no hope of following up with Council actions, or an agenda, before this afternoon.

  12. Kev

    Is there a meeting as usual?

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  15. MattJ

    I need to not use a fixed resource

  16. MattJ

    Seems I was a ghost here, but poezio just let me know I was receiving unexpected messages

  17. Kev


  18. Kev

    Doesn't really answer my question, though.

  19. MattJ

    I've no idea what your question was :)

  20. MattJ

    I see no room history

  21. MattJ

    for some reason

  22. Kev

    I'm flat out, and have no hope of following up with Council actions, or an agenda, before this afternoon. Kev @ 13:44 Is there a meeting as usual? 13:44

  23. MattJ

    I think poezio has hidden it

  24. Kev

    I'm not sure that answered the question either :p

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  28. Kev

    Well, I assume there is and I'll try and be here, although timing is going to be even tighter than usual.

  29. Kev

    I may need to consider asking to move Council a little in the future.

  30. m&m

    yes, there is a meeting today

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  34. stpeter


  35. stpeter


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  37. m&m

    it looks like we're missing a Kev

  38. m&m

    well, lacking the attention of a Kev (-:

  39. stpeter


  40. Dave Cridland

    You can get one on Amazon, I think.

  41. Tobias

    but don't get one of the used ones

  42. m&m

    of course not!

  43. m&m

    it also looks like we're lacking the attention of a MattJ

  44. Dave Cridland

    Yeah, you want a new one, not the dodgy ones on Marketplace.

  45. MattJ

    I'm here now

  46. m&m

    and we're missing a Ralphm

  47. Kev

    I'm here.

  48. Kev

    I dropped MattJ a mail saying I was going to be 5mins late.

  49. stpeter

    is Ralph on holiday?

  50. Kev

    he was the only person I had the address of in my phone.

  51. m&m

    I don't recall

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  54. Kev

    We don't actually have anything to discuss today though, do we?

  55. Peter Waher

    http over XMPP

  56. Kev

    Other than a shedload of outstanding stuff from last week, probably, that I've not even got to opening the mail of.

  57. Peter Waher

    color field type

  58. m&m


  59. Dave Cridland

    Kev, Basically we can fill you in on what happened last week.

  60. Dave Cridland

    Kev, We volunteered you for lots of stuff when you weren't looking. ;-)

  61. m&m

    TL;DR — you are now responsible for deciding our future with Jingle

  62. m&m

    and the rest of the Free World™®

  63. stpeter


  64. Kev


  65. Kev

    I feel suitably qualified for this responsibility.

  66. m&m

    we thought you would

  67. m&m


  68. Kev

    I have, after all, used Fippo's web demo thing.

  69. m&m

    also, you're now XEP Editor, reporting to stpeter

  70. stpeter laughs

  71. Kev

    Excellent, I see no problems with that either.

  72. Kev

    Anything else?

  73. Dave Cridland

    Kev, My kitchen

  74. stpeter

    oh, and I'm now Executive Director Emeritus, you're in charge!

  75. Dave Cridland

    ... needs mopping.

  76. m&m

    ok ok ok

  77. m&m

    in all seriousness

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  79. Kev


  80. m&m

    1) we formed a SIG to determine how media ought to be signaled in the future

  81. m&m

    2) Peter isn't able to keep up, and was to report to us (council? board?) on what he thinks we can do about it

  82. Dave Cridland

    m&m, Well, you guys agreed to form a SIG; I'm awaiting Kev's input there before claiming we've actually formed it.

  83. Kev

    I assume this is in the minutes and I just need to find sufficient time to read some of my mail from the last week and vote on stuff.

  84. m&m

    Kev: yes, but since we having a low latency connection to you now ...

  85. stpeter


  86. Kev

    True enough.

  87. m&m

    Dave Cridland: fair point

  88. Kev

    OK, let's find that mail as I have 30mins assigned to Council now anyway.

  89. Kev

    Oh, that's surprising. Still on my first page.

  90. m&m


  91. Kev

    5.3) SIG sounds like a good idea.

  92. Kev

    I have a significant interest in this, albeit little useful knowledge.

  93. Dave Cridland

    Kev, Happy with me as chair? Not that I have a *clue* what a SIG chair ought to be doing, so I'll make that one up on the fly if there's nothing in bylaws or XEPs about it.

  94. Kev

    5.2) I suspect having a nominated XEP Editor, but a team of minions who just get on and do stuff would be sensible, and have editor@ be an alias to go to several (Possibly including Council Chair).

  95. MattJ

    Dave Cridland, I don't think anyone else is really clear, so you get to decide what to do

  96. Kev

    Dave Cridland: Getting a Rough Consensus™ opinion and reporting it to Council. That's about as far as it goes, I think.

  97. m&m

    essentially hearding cats

  98. m&m


  99. Kev

    And yes, You're welcome to herd as many cats as you wish.

  100. Dave Cridland

    Kev, And on (5.2), my concern would be ensuring that Peter is happy both delegating tasks and similarly herding the resultant cats.

  101. Kev

    Peter gets to say what he wants, I just have an opinion on what would be sensible.

  102. stpeter

    I've been causing delays, so it might be reasonable to have a triumvirate of folks who can do things like push new proposals to the inbox

  103. m&m

    stpeter: that sounds reasonable, and I'm happy with whatever collection of individuals you decide on

  104. Kev

    5.1 - I thought we had approved Color Forms. HTTP I'll need to review again, I haven't read the new version yet.

  105. Kev

    But if they're not on the agenda for today, I guess that's next week anyway.

  106. Dave Cridland

    I'd suggest that the micro-editor folks should not be council, and ideally should be relatively new blood in order to pull some new faces into this end of the XSF.

  107. Kev

    stpeter: Any reason for a triumvirate, other than it being a fun word?

  108. stpeter

    no :-)

  109. Dave Cridland

    Kev, It may be his Word Of The Day. Last week it was "Atramentous".

  110. Kev

    Well, I have no idea what the meaning of that is to know if he's misusing it :)

  111. Kev

    Ah. My dictionary claims it doesn't exist. I feel vindicated.

  112. stpeter

    ok, any action items here? Kev, did you have opinions on SoX?

  113. stpeter

    Kev: the solution to that is, get a better dictionary

  114. Kev

    stpeter: I'd have thought SoX it would be sensible to hold off while the Special Group Of Daves form opinions.

  115. stpeter

    Kev: so I take it you're -1 on publishing as a XEP, then :-)

  116. Kev

    I'd rather not, but can be talked around if people feel I'm being unreasonable

  117. stpeter shrugs

  118. stpeter

    it's one input to the SIG

  119. stpeter

    other proposals might emerge, I'd think

  120. fippo

    kev: sox is different from the whole jingle topic

  121. Kev

    fippo: Is it, though?

  122. fippo

    kev: if you read it, that is even what the authors say

  123. Dave Cridland

    fippo, I think given that it's a VOIP thing, it's certainly related to some degree.

  124. Kev

    fippo: The preamble says about needing to do it because you can't map the SDP inside a browser to Jingle. That seems quite heavily related.

  125. fippo

    right. i do think that sox is very useful for dealing with sip hardware (deskphones)

  126. fippo

    and i don't think jingle will ever be successful there

  127. Dave Cridland

    It'd be nice to see if we could address this.

  128. Tobias

    is this an official meeting or just bringing kev up to date?

  129. Kev

    It's an official meeting.

  130. Kev

    Although we've moved into getting Kev up to date, what we're discussing seems pertinent.

  131. Kev

    Unless people would like us to officially finish and carry on post-meeting.

  132. stpeter is, shockingly, coding and thus not paying the closest of attention

  133. m&m


  134. Peter Waher

    I have a small question before you finish

  135. Kev

    So, I'm largely of the opinion that before pushing out more XEPs about the interaction between SIP/SDP/Jingle or just VOIP in general, we should see what the Band Of Daves have to say.

  136. Kev

    Unless someone has a pressing technical or political reason to publish SOX now.

  137. Kev

    Peter Waher: Shoot

  138. fippo

    stpeter: maybe joe has to give kev the talk he gave us in brussels ;-)

  139. Peter Waher

    if the color field type xep has been approved, is it possible to assign it a number?

  140. Peter Waher

    Also a small comment: I've addressed all comments and suggestions in the HTTP over XMPP XEP. It would be nice to be able to move it to Experimental

  141. Tobias

    Kev, just asking since i didn't see roll call and stuff

  142. Peter Waher

    when you're ready

  143. stpeter

    fippo: yeah

  144. Kev

    Peter Waher: If I'm right, and no-one objected, we can give it a number. For HTTP it needs another vote.

  145. Peter Waher


  146. Kev

    Oh, I owe comments on RTT too, for the LC. Bother.

  147. m&m


  148. stpeter

    Peter Waher: I think you're correct about the color spec, let's check the history here....

  149. Kev

    Ah, I see that stpeter did publish the new http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/http-over-xmpp.html - I just didn't notice it inside another thread.

  150. stpeter

    Kev: yes

  151. Kev

    That's one to vote on next week, then.

  152. Kev

    Anyway, we're at time.

  153. Kev

    Tobias: m&m called Roles at the start.

  154. Kev

    Date of next meeting?

  155. Kev

    I'm going to be continually late from now on if we keep them at 15:00, I think.

  156. Kev

    Moving somewhere 15:15 or 15:30 would be much easier for me.

  157. Tobias

    Kev, ahh..didn't notice it then...nvm

  158. stpeter

    at http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/council/2013-June/003716.html I see: > 3) ProtoXEP: Data Forms - Color Field Type < http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/color-parameter.html > > Accept as Experimental? > > RM, TM, MW have no objections. MM has objections (prefixing of XEP-0122 elements). Author(s) to submit a revision correcting XEP-0122 use. > KS have one fortnight to note objections. (KEV:) Not relevant as MM has blocked.

  159. stpeter

    m&m: were your concerns addressed?

  160. m&m

    yes, and I said as much on one of the lists

  161. Peter Waher

    I responded to the standards list and MM revoked his objection

  162. Kev

    Ah, yes. I didn't have objections to this.

  163. MattJ

    I can't do 15:30

  164. MattJ

    I can probably do 15:00

  165. Kev

    MattJ: 15:00 is what we do now.

  166. Dave Cridland

    MattJ, UTC.

  167. MattJ

    That is so

  168. m&m

    anything at 16:00 or later is too difficult for me

  169. stpeter

    would another day work better for your gentlemen?

  170. MattJ

    My gentlemen would be ok with another day

  171. MattJ

    they said

  172. Kev

    Pretty much any time in the work week other than 14:00 to 15:15 on a Wednesday would probably be fine for me.

  173. m&m

    My gentlemen do not exist, but my hooligans think Monday or Thursday works fine

  174. Kev

    Is there anyone that couldn't do it if we simply moved it back (later) 15mins?

  175. MattJ

    +15 is fine with me

  176. stpeter

    Peter Waher: verified at http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2013-June/027640.html

  177. Kev

    None of the 'can't do' above covered this, I think.

  178. Dave Cridland

    When's the Board meeting these days?

  179. m&m

    15:15 would overlap other meetings I have

  180. Kev

    Dave Cridland: Nonexistent? :)

  181. stpeter

    m&m: even if Council is 15 minutes? ;-)

  182. Dave Cridland

    Kev, Ah.

  183. Tobias

    +15 wfm

  184. Kev

    How about 15:10, and keep it to 20mins?

  185. m&m

    IFF council were switched to a 15 minute meeting, then I think it would usually work

  186. Kev

    I'm only ever so slightly not able to make 15:00, 10mins would cover it.

  187. Peter Waher

    Regarding color field type: http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2013-June/027640.html

  188. m&m

    15:10 works for me

  189. Kev

    Peter Waher: Yes, stpeter linked that a few minutes ago.

  190. Peter Waher

    saw that too late :)

  191. Kev

    OK. Let's go for 15:10 and hope I can be less rubbish at that than at 15:00.

  192. Kev

    Any other business?

  193. Tobias


  194. MattJ


  195. Dave Cridland

    Oh, two things for this SIG - it doesn't have a name, currently, nor any terms of reference beyond "We should look at Jingle properly and see about making it work better with WebRTC".

  196. m&m

    Jingle: The Next Iteration?

  197. Kev

    Name, rose, sweet, etc.

  198. Kev

    "Future Jingle SIG"

  199. Dave Cridland

    SOunds good.

  200. Kev

    Anything else?

  201. Tobias

    or short Fingle

  202. m&m

    Future Understanding of Signalling (FUS)

  203. MattJ

    "Life After Google"

  204. Kev

    I suggest that the SIG can choose a suitable name as its first item and we can avoid doing it here :)

  205. fippo

    i'd prefer FUSS ;-)

  206. Kev

    But, for the record, blue.

  207. Kev

    Right, I think we're done.

  208. Kev

    Thanks all.

  209. Kev bangs the gavel.

  210. m&m

    Future Understanding of Signaling Specifications

  211. m&m


  212. MattJ

    Thanks Kev

  213. Dave Cridland

    (I'm trying to figure out a backronym for FUJ, now)

  214. m&m goes on to json

  215. Tobias


  216. m&m

    Future Undermining of Jingle

  217. MattJ

    Fear, Uncertainty and Jingle

  218. stpeter


  219. m&m


  220. stpeter

    Peter Waher: the color XEP will be published imminently

  221. Peter Waher

    thanks :)

  222. stpeter


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  224. stpeter

    Lance: aw, you missed all the fun! ;-)

  225. jabberjocke

    stpeter: could you add the key for me to keep it updated as work proceed

  226. stpeter

    jabberjocke: I would prefer for Peter to update his own specifications -- if he would like to make you a co-author on all of the specs, then I'd be happy with having you do the check-ins, but if not then it would be best for Peter to learn about git so that he can check in his own changes

  227. stpeter

    it feels strange to me for someone who is not an author to be checking in code/text for someone else

  228. jabberjocke

    ok we'd better do some education :)

  229. stpeter


  230. stpeter

    it's good to know about source control anyway

  231. stpeter

    source control is your friend :-)

  232. jabberjocke

    would gladly help out in some of that tedious work you have, which you mentioned last council

  233. stpeter

    wow, I just received my first-ever spam message in Latvian

  234. stpeter

    jabberjocke: yes, I need to think about how we can structure the work, and I really appreciate the fact that you've volunteered!

  235. stpeter

    jabberjocke: I will report about that at next week's meeting

  236. stpeter

    or before, on the standards@ list

  237. Lance

    stpeter: i always miss the fun meetings :/

  238. fippo

    lance: we can have a fun meeting where we decide how to remote-control a camera over jingle (-:

  239. Lance

    adhoc commands. done

  240. stpeter goes back to his Python coding

  241. fippo

    doh, i hadn't considered that one

  242. Lance

    that would fit nicely with the existing remote controlling clients xeps

  243. stpeter nods to Lance

  244. jabberjocke

    stpeter throw an email a bit busy next week or i just check the loggs

  245. stpeter

    jabberjocke: ok!

  246. fippo

    right, but it's part of and associated with the jingle session. heh, we now have an sig where we can discuss that

  247. Peter Waher

    fippo: PS: Just as a side comment: Controlling web cameras is one of the use cases of the IoT-control XEP, and is more documented on the soon-to-be-published-but-available-on-the-wiiki protoXEP IoT Interoperability.

  248. stpeter

    Peter Waher: cool :-)

  249. fippo


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  251. dwd

    Folks, The XMPP Council has formed a new SIG as per XEP-0002. The terms of reference are to re-examine Jingle particularly in the light of technology shifts such as WebRTC, newer proprietary products, and so on, and see what extensions and potential changes we might make to Jingle to make it an attractive platform to build upon. The SIG will create a coherent technical direction as a written document (probably a XEP), and may submit one or more concrete extensions as XEPs for the Standards SIG to consider. SIGs have a chair role and some leaders - roughly equivalent to Kevin Smith and the XMPP Council's roles respectively - this leadership is chosen, and serves, at the Council's discretion and currently comprises of: Dave Cridland (Chair) Philipp Hancke Ralph Meijer Lance Stout The leadership is primarily there to act as a final judge of the technical quality of the directions the SIG gives, and ensure that suggestions and comments do not slip below the radar. Since it is subject to change, if you'd be able to pitch in, please let either me or the XMPP Council know.

  252. Dave Cridland

    That's what I have written as a draft to send to the jingle@ list. Any comments or objections?

  253. fippo


  254. Lance


  255. stpeter


  256. Dave Cridland

    Kev, ?

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  258. fippo

    if emil ivov was awake i would immediately recruit him

  259. stpeter

    Lance: thanks for the Python feedback, I'm in the midst of a more general refactor at the moment, too ;-)

  260. Kev

    Dave Cridland: I would note that the desired output is a plan to ensure we can maintain interoperability across device types using XMPP.

  261. Kev

    Although not necessarily with those words.

  262. Kev

    That is: My big concern with things like SoX, SDPoJ and legacy Jingle is that we start creating interop zones where phones can interop with SIP but not with Jingle, browsers can only interop with each other, etc.

  263. Kev

    I would like us to have A Plan, rather than three competing plans.

  264. fippo

    kev: sox is more for cusax scenarios i think

  265. m&m

    wow, I think I'll need to declare bankruptcy on this topic sooner than I thought

  266. stpeter


  267. m&m

    that I can't follow this topic with the attention it needs (-:

  268. Peter Waher

    Regarding camera control, using IoT-Sensor-data & IoT-control, check the XMPP.IoT.Media.Camera interface in the Interoperability protoXEP: http://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/joachimlindborg/XMPP-IoT/blob/master/xep-0000-IoT-Interoperability.html

  269. fippo

    m&m: you guys might simply merge my pull request on dna and be done with that ;-)

  270. Kev

    m&m: I really would like to have the cycles this deserves.

  271. stpeter

    fippo: IMHO, SoX is useful when you have a mixed infrastructure of SIP-only endpoints and XMPP-only endpoints (and perhaps even CUSAX endpoints), and you don't want a stateful gateway / translator in the middle

  272. dwd

    The XMPP Council has formed a new Special Interest Group ("SIG") as per XEP-0002, called the "Future Jingle SIG". The terms of reference are to re-examine Jingle particularly in the light of technology shifts such as WebRTC, newer proprietary products, and so on, and see what extensions and potential changes we might make to Jingle to make it an attractive platform to build upon, which will maximize interoperability across a wide range of devices and environments. The SIG will create a coherent technical direction as a written document (probably a XEP), and may submit one or more concrete extensions as XEPs for the Standards SIG to consider.

  273. Dave Cridland

    New paras to address Kev's comment. And actually say what a SIG is.

  274. Kev

    Dave Cridland: That's great by me, thanks.

  275. stpeter

    personally, I would like to get the SoX proposal published as a XEP, and encourage other proposals as well so that we can have documentation of the various approaches (just as we did years ago for pubsub)

  276. stpeter

    but I've always been in favor of publishing and not leaving things in the inbox

  277. stpeter shrugs

  278. stpeter

    back to Python... :-)

  279. jabberjocke

    fippo: you have a link to the pull request

  280. stpeter

    oh and hmph, I need to get my Prosody server running again...

  281. fippo

    jabberjocke: the dna (domain name assertions) one?

  282. Kev

    stpeter: I'm not opposed to publishing SoX in the same way we did DMUCs with a "This is published as a discussion point to inform the SIG formed for investigation of the future of Jingle. It is not intended to be implemented until/unless the SIG has formed its conclusions" or something.

  283. fippo

    kev: that reminds me that last friday i had to implement dmuc2 ;-)

  284. Kev

    fippo: Heh.

  285. fippo

    maybe a new status "for discussion purposes"?

  286. stpeter

    fippo: they're all for discussion purposes, IMHO

  287. jabberjocke

    fippo: missed you where aiming to m&m

  288. Dave Cridland

    "Experimental, but this time we really mean it"?

  289. fippo

    btw: we also need to get rid of this scary red line for xeps that have been deferred because of inactivity...

  290. Dave Cridland

    Having XEPs which are broken in Experimental does both encourage people to get them through to Draft, and also avoids the kind of Proposed-Means-Standard thing that's happened at the IETF.

  291. jabberjocke

    I alos like that fact

  292. Kev

    Dave Cridland: It's already happened. Draft means Final.

  293. Kev

    Experimental means Draft, and Deferred means Experimental :)

  294. Kev

    (Well, kinda)

  295. jabberjocke

    we are definitely aiming Draft for IoT Xeps

  296. Peter Waher

    (at least)

  297. Peter Waher

    IoT architecture & installations have life spans of +10 years, and need to be stable

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