- m&m has joined
- m&m has left
- m&m has joined
- Tobias has joined
- m&m has left
- jabberjocke has left
- Tobias has left
- Tobias has joined
- Tobias has joined
- Tobias has joined
-
Kev
I'm flat out, and have no hope of following up with Council actions, or an agenda, before this afternoon.
-
Kev
Is there a meeting as usual?
- MattJ has left
- MattJ has joined
-
MattJ
I need to not use a fixed resource
-
MattJ
Seems I was a ghost here, but poezio just let me know I was receiving unexpected messages
-
Kev
:)
-
Kev
Doesn't really answer my question, though.
-
MattJ
I've no idea what your question was :)
-
MattJ
I see no room history
-
MattJ
for some reason
-
Kev
I'm flat out, and have no hope of following up with Council actions, or an agenda, before this afternoon. Kev @ 13:44 Is there a meeting as usual? 13:44
-
MattJ
I think poezio has hidden it
-
Kev
I'm not sure that answered the question either :p
- m&m has joined
- m&m has left
- m&m has joined
-
Kev
Well, I assume there is and I'll try and be here, although timing is going to be even tighter than usual.
-
Kev
I may need to consider asking to move Council a little in the future.
-
m&m
yes, there is a meeting today
- Peter Waher has joined
- jabberjocke has joined
- stpeter has joined
-
stpeter
brb
-
stpeter
back
- Dave Cridland has joined
-
m&m
it looks like we're missing a Kev
-
m&m
well, lacking the attention of a Kev (-:
-
stpeter
hehe
-
Dave Cridland
You can get one on Amazon, I think.
-
Tobias
but don't get one of the used ones
-
m&m
of course not!
-
m&m
it also looks like we're lacking the attention of a MattJ
-
Dave Cridland
Yeah, you want a new one, not the dodgy ones on Marketplace.
-
MattJ
I'm here now
-
m&m
and we're missing a Ralphm
-
Kev
I'm here.
-
Kev
I dropped MattJ a mail saying I was going to be 5mins late.
-
stpeter
is Ralph on holiday?
-
Kev
he was the only person I had the address of in my phone.
-
m&m
I don't recall
- Tobias has left
- Tobias has joined
-
Kev
We don't actually have anything to discuss today though, do we?
-
Peter Waher
http over XMPP
-
Kev
Other than a shedload of outstanding stuff from last week, probably, that I've not even got to opening the mail of.
-
Peter Waher
color field type
-
m&m
haha
-
Dave Cridland
Kev, Basically we can fill you in on what happened last week.
-
Dave Cridland
Kev, We volunteered you for lots of stuff when you weren't looking. ;-)
-
m&m
TL;DR — you are now responsible for deciding our future with Jingle
-
m&m
and the rest of the Free World™®
-
stpeter
heehee
-
Kev
Excellent.
-
Kev
I feel suitably qualified for this responsibility.
-
m&m
we thought you would
-
m&m
(-:
-
Kev
I have, after all, used Fippo's web demo thing.
-
m&m
also, you're now XEP Editor, reporting to stpeter
- stpeter laughs
-
Kev
Excellent, I see no problems with that either.
-
Kev
Anything else?
-
Dave Cridland
Kev, My kitchen
-
stpeter
oh, and I'm now Executive Director Emeritus, you're in charge!
-
Dave Cridland
... needs mopping.
-
m&m
ok ok ok
-
m&m
in all seriousness
- fippo has joined
-
Kev
http://dibbledabblesdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/i-want-the-moon-on-a-stick.png
-
m&m
1) we formed a SIG to determine how media ought to be signaled in the future
-
m&m
2) Peter isn't able to keep up, and was to report to us (council? board?) on what he thinks we can do about it
-
Dave Cridland
m&m, Well, you guys agreed to form a SIG; I'm awaiting Kev's input there before claiming we've actually formed it.
-
Kev
I assume this is in the minutes and I just need to find sufficient time to read some of my mail from the last week and vote on stuff.
-
m&m
Kev: yes, but since we having a low latency connection to you now ...
-
stpeter
right
-
Kev
True enough.
-
m&m
Dave Cridland: fair point
-
Kev
OK, let's find that mail as I have 30mins assigned to Council now anyway.
-
Kev
Oh, that's surprising. Still on my first page.
-
m&m
heh
-
Kev
5.3) SIG sounds like a good idea.
-
Kev
I have a significant interest in this, albeit little useful knowledge.
-
Dave Cridland
Kev, Happy with me as chair? Not that I have a *clue* what a SIG chair ought to be doing, so I'll make that one up on the fly if there's nothing in bylaws or XEPs about it.
-
Kev
5.2) I suspect having a nominated XEP Editor, but a team of minions who just get on and do stuff would be sensible, and have editor@ be an alias to go to several (Possibly including Council Chair).
-
MattJ
Dave Cridland, I don't think anyone else is really clear, so you get to decide what to do
-
Kev
Dave Cridland: Getting a Rough Consensus™ opinion and reporting it to Council. That's about as far as it goes, I think.
-
m&m
essentially hearding cats
-
m&m
herding
-
Kev
And yes, You're welcome to herd as many cats as you wish.
-
Dave Cridland
Kev, And on (5.2), my concern would be ensuring that Peter is happy both delegating tasks and similarly herding the resultant cats.
-
Kev
Peter gets to say what he wants, I just have an opinion on what would be sensible.
-
stpeter
I've been causing delays, so it might be reasonable to have a triumvirate of folks who can do things like push new proposals to the inbox
-
m&m
stpeter: that sounds reasonable, and I'm happy with whatever collection of individuals you decide on
-
Kev
5.1 - I thought we had approved Color Forms. HTTP I'll need to review again, I haven't read the new version yet.
-
Kev
But if they're not on the agenda for today, I guess that's next week anyway.
-
Dave Cridland
I'd suggest that the micro-editor folks should not be council, and ideally should be relatively new blood in order to pull some new faces into this end of the XSF.
-
Kev
stpeter: Any reason for a triumvirate, other than it being a fun word?
-
stpeter
no :-)
-
Dave Cridland
Kev, It may be his Word Of The Day. Last week it was "Atramentous".
-
Kev
Well, I have no idea what the meaning of that is to know if he's misusing it :)
-
Kev
Ah. My dictionary claims it doesn't exist. I feel vindicated.
-
stpeter
ok, any action items here? Kev, did you have opinions on SoX?
-
stpeter
Kev: the solution to that is, get a better dictionary
-
Kev
stpeter: I'd have thought SoX it would be sensible to hold off while the Special Group Of Daves form opinions.
-
stpeter
Kev: so I take it you're -1 on publishing as a XEP, then :-)
-
Kev
I'd rather not, but can be talked around if people feel I'm being unreasonable
- stpeter shrugs
-
stpeter
it's one input to the SIG
-
stpeter
other proposals might emerge, I'd think
-
fippo
kev: sox is different from the whole jingle topic
-
Kev
fippo: Is it, though?
-
fippo
kev: if you read it, that is even what the authors say
-
Dave Cridland
fippo, I think given that it's a VOIP thing, it's certainly related to some degree.
-
Kev
fippo: The preamble says about needing to do it because you can't map the SDP inside a browser to Jingle. That seems quite heavily related.
-
fippo
right. i do think that sox is very useful for dealing with sip hardware (deskphones)
-
fippo
and i don't think jingle will ever be successful there
-
Dave Cridland
It'd be nice to see if we could address this.
-
Tobias
is this an official meeting or just bringing kev up to date?
-
Kev
It's an official meeting.
-
Kev
Although we've moved into getting Kev up to date, what we're discussing seems pertinent.
-
Kev
Unless people would like us to officially finish and carry on post-meeting.
- stpeter is, shockingly, coding and thus not paying the closest of attention
-
m&m
0.o
-
Peter Waher
I have a small question before you finish
-
Kev
So, I'm largely of the opinion that before pushing out more XEPs about the interaction between SIP/SDP/Jingle or just VOIP in general, we should see what the Band Of Daves have to say.
-
Kev
Unless someone has a pressing technical or political reason to publish SOX now.
-
Kev
Peter Waher: Shoot
-
fippo
stpeter: maybe joe has to give kev the talk he gave us in brussels ;-)
-
Peter Waher
if the color field type xep has been approved, is it possible to assign it a number?
-
Peter Waher
Also a small comment: I've addressed all comments and suggestions in the HTTP over XMPP XEP. It would be nice to be able to move it to Experimental
-
Tobias
Kev, just asking since i didn't see roll call and stuff
-
Peter Waher
when you're ready
-
stpeter
fippo: yeah
-
Kev
Peter Waher: If I'm right, and no-one objected, we can give it a number. For HTTP it needs another vote.
-
Peter Waher
thanks
-
Kev
Oh, I owe comments on RTT too, for the LC. Bother.
-
m&m
|-:
-
stpeter
Peter Waher: I think you're correct about the color spec, let's check the history here....
-
Kev
Ah, I see that stpeter did publish the new http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/http-over-xmpp.html - I just didn't notice it inside another thread.
-
stpeter
Kev: yes
-
Kev
That's one to vote on next week, then.
-
Kev
Anyway, we're at time.
-
Kev
Tobias: m&m called Roles at the start.
-
Kev
Date of next meeting?
-
Kev
I'm going to be continually late from now on if we keep them at 15:00, I think.
-
Kev
Moving somewhere 15:15 or 15:30 would be much easier for me.
-
Tobias
Kev, ahh..didn't notice it then...nvm
-
stpeter
at http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/council/2013-June/003716.html I see: > 3) ProtoXEP: Data Forms - Color Field Type < http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/color-parameter.html > > Accept as Experimental? > > RM, TM, MW have no objections. MM has objections (prefixing of XEP-0122 elements). Author(s) to submit a revision correcting XEP-0122 use. > KS have one fortnight to note objections. (KEV:) Not relevant as MM has blocked.
-
stpeter
m&m: were your concerns addressed?
-
m&m
yes, and I said as much on one of the lists
-
Peter Waher
I responded to the standards list and MM revoked his objection
-
Kev
Ah, yes. I didn't have objections to this.
-
MattJ
I can't do 15:30
-
MattJ
I can probably do 15:00
-
Kev
MattJ: 15:00 is what we do now.
-
Dave Cridland
MattJ, UTC.
-
MattJ
That is so
-
m&m
anything at 16:00 or later is too difficult for me
-
stpeter
would another day work better for your gentlemen?
-
MattJ
My gentlemen would be ok with another day
-
MattJ
they said
-
Kev
Pretty much any time in the work week other than 14:00 to 15:15 on a Wednesday would probably be fine for me.
-
m&m
My gentlemen do not exist, but my hooligans think Monday or Thursday works fine
-
Kev
Is there anyone that couldn't do it if we simply moved it back (later) 15mins?
-
MattJ
+15 is fine with me
-
stpeter
Peter Waher: verified at http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2013-June/027640.html
-
Kev
None of the 'can't do' above covered this, I think.
-
Dave Cridland
When's the Board meeting these days?
-
m&m
15:15 would overlap other meetings I have
-
Kev
Dave Cridland: Nonexistent? :)
-
stpeter
m&m: even if Council is 15 minutes? ;-)
-
Dave Cridland
Kev, Ah.
-
Tobias
+15 wfm
-
Kev
How about 15:10, and keep it to 20mins?
-
m&m
IFF council were switched to a 15 minute meeting, then I think it would usually work
-
Kev
I'm only ever so slightly not able to make 15:00, 10mins would cover it.
-
Peter Waher
Regarding color field type: http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2013-June/027640.html
-
m&m
15:10 works for me
-
Kev
Peter Waher: Yes, stpeter linked that a few minutes ago.
-
Peter Waher
saw that too late :)
-
Kev
OK. Let's go for 15:10 and hope I can be less rubbish at that than at 15:00.
-
Kev
Any other business?
-
Tobias
ok
-
MattJ
Ok
-
Dave Cridland
Oh, two things for this SIG - it doesn't have a name, currently, nor any terms of reference beyond "We should look at Jingle properly and see about making it work better with WebRTC".
-
m&m
Jingle: The Next Iteration?
-
Kev
Name, rose, sweet, etc.
-
Kev
"Future Jingle SIG"
-
Dave Cridland
SOunds good.
-
Kev
Anything else?
-
Tobias
or short Fingle
-
m&m
Future Understanding of Signalling (FUS)
-
MattJ
"Life After Google"
-
Kev
I suggest that the SIG can choose a suitable name as its first item and we can avoid doing it here :)
-
fippo
i'd prefer FUSS ;-)
-
Kev
But, for the record, blue.
-
Kev
Right, I think we're done.
-
Kev
Thanks all.
- Kev bangs the gavel.
-
m&m
Future Understanding of Signaling Specifications
-
m&m
there
-
MattJ
Thanks Kev
-
Dave Cridland
(I'm trying to figure out a backronym for FUJ, now)
- m&m goes on to json
-
Tobias
yay
-
m&m
Future Undermining of Jingle
-
MattJ
Fear, Uncertainty and Jingle
-
stpeter
heh
-
m&m
nice
-
stpeter
Peter Waher: the color XEP will be published imminently
-
Peter Waher
thanks :)
-
stpeter
done
- Lance has joined
-
stpeter
Lance: aw, you missed all the fun! ;-)
-
jabberjocke
stpeter: could you add the key for me to keep it updated as work proceed
-
stpeter
jabberjocke: I would prefer for Peter to update his own specifications -- if he would like to make you a co-author on all of the specs, then I'd be happy with having you do the check-ins, but if not then it would be best for Peter to learn about git so that he can check in his own changes
-
stpeter
it feels strange to me for someone who is not an author to be checking in code/text for someone else
-
jabberjocke
ok we'd better do some education :)
-
stpeter
hehe
-
stpeter
it's good to know about source control anyway
-
stpeter
source control is your friend :-)
-
jabberjocke
would gladly help out in some of that tedious work you have, which you mentioned last council
-
stpeter
wow, I just received my first-ever spam message in Latvian
-
stpeter
jabberjocke: yes, I need to think about how we can structure the work, and I really appreciate the fact that you've volunteered!
-
stpeter
jabberjocke: I will report about that at next week's meeting
-
stpeter
or before, on the standards@ list
-
Lance
stpeter: i always miss the fun meetings :/
-
fippo
lance: we can have a fun meeting where we decide how to remote-control a camera over jingle (-:
-
Lance
adhoc commands. done
- stpeter goes back to his Python coding
-
fippo
doh, i hadn't considered that one
-
Lance
that would fit nicely with the existing remote controlling clients xeps
- stpeter nods to Lance
-
jabberjocke
stpeter throw an email a bit busy next week or i just check the loggs
-
stpeter
jabberjocke: ok!
-
fippo
right, but it's part of and associated with the jingle session. heh, we now have an sig where we can discuss that
-
Peter Waher
fippo: PS: Just as a side comment: Controlling web cameras is one of the use cases of the IoT-control XEP, and is more documented on the soon-to-be-published-but-available-on-the-wiiki protoXEP IoT Interoperability.
-
stpeter
Peter Waher: cool :-)
-
fippo
yai!
- dwd has joined
-
dwd
Folks, The XMPP Council has formed a new SIG as per XEP-0002. The terms of reference are to re-examine Jingle particularly in the light of technology shifts such as WebRTC, newer proprietary products, and so on, and see what extensions and potential changes we might make to Jingle to make it an attractive platform to build upon. The SIG will create a coherent technical direction as a written document (probably a XEP), and may submit one or more concrete extensions as XEPs for the Standards SIG to consider. SIGs have a chair role and some leaders - roughly equivalent to Kevin Smith and the XMPP Council's roles respectively - this leadership is chosen, and serves, at the Council's discretion and currently comprises of: Dave Cridland (Chair) Philipp Hancke Ralph Meijer Lance Stout The leadership is primarily there to act as a final judge of the technical quality of the directions the SIG gives, and ensure that suggestions and comments do not slip below the radar. Since it is subject to change, if you'd be able to pitch in, please let either me or the XMPP Council know.
-
Dave Cridland
That's what I have written as a draft to send to the jingle@ list. Any comments or objections?
-
fippo
'+1
-
Lance
+1
-
stpeter
WFM
-
Dave Cridland
Kev, ?
- Zash has joined
-
fippo
if emil ivov was awake i would immediately recruit him
-
stpeter
Lance: thanks for the Python feedback, I'm in the midst of a more general refactor at the moment, too ;-)
-
Kev
Dave Cridland: I would note that the desired output is a plan to ensure we can maintain interoperability across device types using XMPP.
-
Kev
Although not necessarily with those words.
-
Kev
That is: My big concern with things like SoX, SDPoJ and legacy Jingle is that we start creating interop zones where phones can interop with SIP but not with Jingle, browsers can only interop with each other, etc.
-
Kev
I would like us to have A Plan, rather than three competing plans.
-
fippo
kev: sox is more for cusax scenarios i think
-
m&m
wow, I think I'll need to declare bankruptcy on this topic sooner than I thought
-
stpeter
bankruptcy?
-
m&m
that I can't follow this topic with the attention it needs (-:
-
Peter Waher
Regarding camera control, using IoT-Sensor-data & IoT-control, check the XMPP.IoT.Media.Camera interface in the Interoperability protoXEP: http://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/joachimlindborg/XMPP-IoT/blob/master/xep-0000-IoT-Interoperability.html
-
fippo
m&m: you guys might simply merge my pull request on dna and be done with that ;-)
-
Kev
m&m: I really would like to have the cycles this deserves.
-
stpeter
fippo: IMHO, SoX is useful when you have a mixed infrastructure of SIP-only endpoints and XMPP-only endpoints (and perhaps even CUSAX endpoints), and you don't want a stateful gateway / translator in the middle
-
dwd
The XMPP Council has formed a new Special Interest Group ("SIG") as per XEP-0002, called the "Future Jingle SIG". The terms of reference are to re-examine Jingle particularly in the light of technology shifts such as WebRTC, newer proprietary products, and so on, and see what extensions and potential changes we might make to Jingle to make it an attractive platform to build upon, which will maximize interoperability across a wide range of devices and environments. The SIG will create a coherent technical direction as a written document (probably a XEP), and may submit one or more concrete extensions as XEPs for the Standards SIG to consider.
-
Dave Cridland
New paras to address Kev's comment. And actually say what a SIG is.
-
Kev
Dave Cridland: That's great by me, thanks.
-
stpeter
personally, I would like to get the SoX proposal published as a XEP, and encourage other proposals as well so that we can have documentation of the various approaches (just as we did years ago for pubsub)
-
stpeter
but I've always been in favor of publishing and not leaving things in the inbox
- stpeter shrugs
-
stpeter
back to Python... :-)
-
jabberjocke
fippo: you have a link to the pull request
-
stpeter
oh and hmph, I need to get my Prosody server running again...
-
fippo
jabberjocke: the dna (domain name assertions) one?
-
Kev
stpeter: I'm not opposed to publishing SoX in the same way we did DMUCs with a "This is published as a discussion point to inform the SIG formed for investigation of the future of Jingle. It is not intended to be implemented until/unless the SIG has formed its conclusions" or something.
-
fippo
kev: that reminds me that last friday i had to implement dmuc2 ;-)
-
Kev
fippo: Heh.
-
fippo
maybe a new status "for discussion purposes"?
-
stpeter
fippo: they're all for discussion purposes, IMHO
-
jabberjocke
fippo: missed you where aiming to m&m
-
Dave Cridland
"Experimental, but this time we really mean it"?
-
fippo
btw: we also need to get rid of this scary red line for xeps that have been deferred because of inactivity...
-
Dave Cridland
Having XEPs which are broken in Experimental does both encourage people to get them through to Draft, and also avoids the kind of Proposed-Means-Standard thing that's happened at the IETF.
-
jabberjocke
I alos like that fact
-
Kev
Dave Cridland: It's already happened. Draft means Final.
-
Kev
Experimental means Draft, and Deferred means Experimental :)
-
Kev
(Well, kinda)
-
jabberjocke
we are definitely aiming Draft for IoT Xeps
-
Peter Waher
(at least)
-
Peter Waher
IoT architecture & installations have life spans of +10 years, and need to be stable
- Peter Waher has left
- Tobias has left
- jabberjocke has left
- fippo has left
- Lance has joined
- stpeter has left
- Lance has joined
- stpeter has joined
- Zash has left
- Tobias has joined
- stpeter has left
- m&m has left
- m&m has joined
- m&m has left
- Zash has joined
- Tobias has left
- Lance has joined
- Zash has left
- m&m has joined
- m&m has left
- m&m has joined
- Tobias has joined
- m&m has left
- jabberjocke has left
- Tobias has left
- Tobias has joined
- Tobias has joined
- Tobias has joined
- MattJ has left
- MattJ has joined
- m&m has joined
- m&m has left
- m&m has joined
- Peter Waher has joined
- jabberjocke has joined
- stpeter has joined
- Dave Cridland has joined
- Tobias has left
- Tobias has joined
- fippo has joined
- Lance has joined
- dwd has joined
- Zash has joined
- Peter Waher has left
- Tobias has left
- jabberjocke has left
- fippo has left
- Lance has joined
- stpeter has left
- Lance has joined
- stpeter has joined
- Zash has left
- Tobias has joined
- stpeter has left
- m&m has left
- m&m has joined
- m&m has left
- Zash has joined
- Tobias has left
- Lance has joined
- Zash has left