-
Kev
Same as last week's unmeeting, the only thing I see in the agenda for today is http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/dynamic-forms.html
-
Tobias
ok
-
Zash
Will m&m be around for that IETF summary?
-
m&m
I will try
-
Zash
:D
-
m&m
I started the day quadruple-booked for meetings … now I'm down to double-booked (-:
-
Tobias
heh
-
m&m
if I'm not here … I am −1 on dynamic forms, unless the author can explain why ad-hoc commands is not suitable
-
Kev
Meeting in 9 minutes.
-
Kev
m&m: Do you believe that dynamic-forms can be done using -50 then, without all the extra business logic that's the core bit of the proposal?
-
m&m
yes
-
Kev
I don't see it.
-
Kev
I mean, I can see how you could build the same stuff on top of 50 that this builds on top of 4, but it still seems to be building stuff on top of XX.
-
ralphm
Present
-
Kev
ralphm: You've got 6mins yet :)
-
Kev
m&m: I don't see how -50 gives you ways of the client telling the server "I've got a value in this field now, but the form's not complete yet" or of the server replying with "Oh, OK, add these fields to the form, then".
-
m&m
-50 supports multiple stages, which could fulfill the same role
-
Kev
Yes and no.
-
Kev
Because if you want the -50 stages to support that, you then lose the ability for -50 stages to support multiple stages.
-
Peter Waher
hello
-
m&m
that makes no sense
-
Kev
Peter Waher: Howdy.
-
Kev
m&m: It makes lots of sense :)
-
m&m
why can't the next stage send the form up to the point it knows of?
-
m&m
I've done this in the past
-
m&m
and now I'm in my next meeting
-
Kev
m&m: If you use multi-stage to be used for incomplete data submission, like the proposal needs, you can't also use multi-stage for multi-stage forms in their traditional sense.
-
m&m
don't know if I'll be paying enough attention here … sorry
- stpeter is indeed on a conference call and won't have much attention for the Council meeting
-
ralphm
stpeter: booh
-
Kev
Because you lose the ability to say "This is the next stage and I really mean it this time, please give me the next stage not the updated version of this stage".
-
Kev
And ding, it's time.
-
Kev
So 1) Roll call.
-
Tobias
here
-
m&m
not really heere
-
Kev
m&m is absent with apologies in a strange manner.
-
m&m
double-booked meetings
-
m&m
I can't help it today
-
m&m
nor next week
-
ralphm
here
-
Tobias
maybe we should find a different time then, at the end of this meeting?
-
Kev
MattJ: Poke.
-
Kev
I'm amenable to other times.
-
Kev
Or other days, at least. The time slot is probably as good as we'll get.
-
Kev
MattJ only just joined, he can't be not here can he?
-
stpeter
ralphm: it seems that the UPnP folks might be interested in using XMPP to cloud-enable their technology, so I'm helping them through some of the issues they're facing
-
Kev
I guess he's not.
-
Kev
2) http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/dynamic-forms.html Accept as Experimental.
-
ralphm
stpeter: nice
-
Kev
m&m is -1, to post to list.
-
Kev
So I guess that makes everyone else irrelevant :)
-
Peter Waher
not necessarily
-
Peter Waher
since it might be relatively easy to respond to m&m's objections
-
Kev
Peter Waher: A single -1 is blocking, so it doesn't matter what the rest of us think.
-
Peter Waher
it would be good to hear what all think
-
MattJ
Present
-
Tobias
i'm +0, post-back is some strange term (don't know a better one off hand) and if xep-0050 is not suitable it could at least mentioned in the introduction why not, since data-forms and ad-hoc are deployed and used
-
MattJ
Sorry, clock I was watching seems to be a few mins out
-
ralphm
for what it is worth, I am not really convinced that the dynamic stuff needs additional protocol wrappers
-
Kev
I don't see how this stuff can be done with what we have without a spec of some sort or another (be it significant business logic on top of existing protocol, or new protocol). So I'm not objecting.
-
MattJ
I'm +0, since I haven't read the document yet, I'll read it and post my concerns to the thread if I have any
-
Kev
ralphm: So you're blocking it too, or not?
-
ralphm
That said, I am not objecting to publishing.
-
Peter Waher
the ad-hoc command was considered in the beginning, but was too different for the purpose. If m&m objects on list I can respond to why
-
Peter Waher
considered writing something about it in the xep
-
Peter Waher
but didn't
-
Peter Waher
can easilly add why it was not used
-
Kev
OK.
-
Kev
So, 3) Date of next meeting.
-
Kev
Given m&m's the person with the conflicts, and he's not here, I don't see much point changing the date. Let's go for next week at 15:10UTC as usual, and we can change during the week if we want.
-
ralphm
Peter Waher: design choices are always great to have inside specs like this
-
ralphm
+1
-
Tobias
Kev, fine with me
-
Peter Waher
yes, I see that now. Thought about it, but for some reason I didn't add it. I'll correct that in my response to m&m on list
-
Kev
OK. 4) AOB?
-
Tobias
none here
-
MattJ
None here
-
Kev
Good enough.
-
Kev
Thanks all.
- Kev bangs the gavel.
-
MattJ
Thanks Kev
-
Tobias
thanks
-
ralphm
Thanks!
-
Tobias
ralphm, you planned some changes to XEP's HTML rendering?
-
ralphm
oh, right
-
Tobias
in what direction?
-
ralphm
basically some additional CSS
-
Peter Waher
there are problems with rendering of images
-
Tobias
Peter Waher, got an example?
-
Peter Waher
img tags are rendered with width="" height=""
-
Peter Waher
since width and height attributes are forbidden according to the schema
-
Peter Waher
this works in FireFox
-
Peter Waher
but makes images invisible in IE
-
Peter Waher
(it's treated as width="0" height="0")
-
Tobias
Peter Waher, ah..right
-
Tobias
wonder if we can do something about that :)
-
Peter Waher
if you want, I can mail you a mail I sent to Peter Saint-André earlier
- Tobias also needs to check how that looks in the pdf rendering :)
-
ralphm
you probably need to look at extensions/xep.xsl, where the attribute is rendered
-
Peter Waher
yes, I've proposed a correction
-
Tobias
great
-
Peter Waher
to whom do I mail it?
-
Tobias
can mail it to me
-
bear
if you cc me then I can look into fixing it
-
Tobias
tm@ayena.de
-
Peter Waher
bear: What's your mail address?
-
bear
bear@bear.im
-
Peter Waher
mail forwarded
-
Tobias
thx
-
bear
got it
-
Peter Waher
(y)
-
Zash
delivery receipts over xmpp! :D
-
bear
tobias - I pushed the static site to the XSF github repo
-
bear
I am using the github repo just as a working area, the final repo will be our normal one
-
bear
i'll be adding more to the README to document what each area is
- bear realizes he is spamming the wrong folks and will send email
- stpeter promises to read the meeting log once he's finished with this conferene call...
-
Tobias
bear, we want to mix standards and our website repo?
-
bear
mix?
-
Tobias
well..do both stuff in a single repo
-
bear
that probably needs to be talked about - a lot of it has just been a few of us just doing things
-
bear
my reasoning for using github right now is just pure convienence, i'm in it every day
-
Tobias
heh
-
bear
and this test site needs some serious css love
-
Tobias
MattJ, got a link to that repo?
-
ralphm
Tobias: I see the gen.py depends on mercurial for versioning information?
-
MattJ
Which?
-
Tobias
ralphm, yes
-
ralphm
so you can't even build the XEPs from the git checkout
-
Tobias
you can using XSLT
-
ralphm
right
-
Tobias
gen.py renders the last version of a XEP that doesn't have an <interim/> tag in it
-
ralphm
or all
-
bear
part of why I spoke up to help - this needs to be "solved" for the static site generation
- bear notes email sent
-
ralphm
for some reason the XEP generated from the repo have a smaller font size than on the web site
-
Tobias
ralphm, basically i went with hg in python because of the easy py api, i think back then there wasn't a good one for git
-
Tobias
i can try changing it to dulwich, but that's at the end of my todo :)
-
ralphm
I have a personal preference to hg, too
-
ralphm
but our generation process should depend on it
-
Tobias
should?
-
ralphm
not. I pull and push from github using mercurial with ease
-
Kev
Let's not go changing our repo format :)
-
Tobias
Kev, hahaha
-
Tobias
Kev, ever used dulwich?
-
Kev
I don't have a problem with the 'official' generation having dependencies, either. It's easy to generate the XEPs yourself when you're editing them.
-
Kev
Tobias: No.
- m&m finally has time to catch up …
-
m&m
2) I will post my objections to the list by tomorrow (MDT)
-
m&m
3) apologies for next week; conflicts with JSON WG interim meeting
-
m&m
4) I can send a summary of the POSH BoF to some list, if people care
-
bear
m&m - please do send POSH summary
-
Zash
+1
-
m&m
ok, I'll send that at least to council@, fwd standards@ … sometime this week
- stpeter finally reads http://logs.xmpp.org/council/130814/ and sees that he has no action items so moves on ;-)
-
Kev
I need to do minutes. Probably several sets.
-
stpeter
I think at this point you probably need to sleep :P
-
m&m
sleep is for the weak
-
Kev
It's only 21:30.
-
m&m
(-:
-
Kev
I'll try and get minutes done tomorrow.
-
stpeter
Kev: thanks
-
Kev
The reason I've missed them is almost comical.
-
Kev
It's been hot in the UK (although not any more).
-
Kev
So I had my VM server shut off to save heating my study more than I needed. My TODO lives on one of the VMs. So I had nothing telling me to do minutes :)
-
stpeter
hehehe
-
m&m
sounds perfectly logical to me (-:
-
stpeter
and yes, m&m and I experienced the tail end of the heat when we were in Berlin
-
m&m
ugh
-
stpeter
we Americans are spoiled by the ubiquitous and excessive Air Conditioning™
-
m&m
in our defense, it approached 37C outside …
-
Tobias
just one day :)
-
m&m
it wasn't that much colder the rest of the week! *
-
m&m
* not including the deluges
-
Tobias
not much but a bit, one day was quite rainy though
-
m&m
it was interesting how walking through the InterContinental, there were definite climate zones
-
Tobias
heh
-
Tobias
saw a tornado or so?
-
m&m
a few steps one way, and it went from fairly warm to chilly
-
stpeter
fascinating and totally off-topic: http://twistedsifter.com/2013/08/maps-that-will-help-you-make-sense-of-the-world/
-
Tobias
i find 9 particular surprising
-
stpeter
I liked the literal translations of Chinese names for European countries :-)
-
Tobias
moral-land, hahaha
-
m&m
Braveland!
-
MattJ
That's us!
-
stpeter
cf. map #3 :P
-
stpeter
heh, http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_vault/2013/08/12/the_1931_histomap_the_entire_history_of_the_world_distilled_into_a_single.html is cool too
-
stpeter
although it seems to end in 1931
- stpeter wonders who ever dreamed up the idea that PowerPoint was a good way to define technical architectures and protocols and such -- yikes!
-
Kev
I'm not convinced that claiming the UK uses the metric system is entirely right.
-
stpeter
the UK is in transition, I suppose
-
MattJ
"transition" :)
-
Kev
It's not, though, in any meaningful sense, transitioning.
-
Kev
It's halfway and stuck.
-
stpeter
ah
-
MattJ
As a result, I'm hopeless at kilometres, but useless at yards
-
stpeter
many years ago one used to seek some road signs in kilometers in America, but not often any longer -- and that won't change until Satan buys a snow shovel
-
Kev
Driving distances/speeds are always imperial. Weight of a person is usual imperial. Cooking is a mix. Most things you buy are metric, but often in imperial round numbers. You buy a pint of beer (if your tastebuds are broken). Short distances could be either. Etc.
-
stpeter
s/seek/see/
-
stpeter
I'm looking forward to visiting England again for the IETF meeting next spring (although at the same time I'm working hard to finish up all my IETF work!)
-
MattJ
I'm looking forward to that too, I might finally make it
-
stpeter
I'll definitely plan an XMPP hackfest of some kind
-
MattJ
Excellent :)
-
stpeter
maybe I'll stay busy with IETF stuff through the Hawaii meeting ;-)
-
Tobias
stpeter, hehe
-
Tobias
stpeter, who around the IETF do we have to nag about updating jabber.ietf.org?
-
stpeter
updating the website or the xmpp server?
-
Tobias
xmpp
-
Tobias
they are running some ancient ejabberd
-
stpeter
I'll ping my friends at AMS about that
-
Tobias
thanks :)
-
stpeter
I offered to help them
-
Tobias
they don't have to switch to prosody...but they could at least update to the current ejabberd release
-
ralphm
stpeter: you have people living at the airport?
-
stpeter
switching to Prosody is the plan
-
ralphm
Kev: for what it is worth, even though the Netherlands is mostly metric, there are various things measured in non-round values
-
MattJ
stpeter, maybe poke when 0.9 is out
-
stpeter
MattJ: good plan -- I know they have some hardware migrations to finish first
-
stpeter
note to self: don't set passwords longer than 40 characters, they might be easy to remember but they're hard to type
-
Neustradamus
stpeter: About XSF servers, have you news about updates?
-
stpeter
hmm
-
stpeter
what kind of updates?
-
Neustradamus
Debian 7, M-Link...
-
stpeter
M-Link isn't an XSF matter
-
stpeter
but that's being worked on
-
stpeter
Jonathan Siegle has been working on Debian upgrades
-
Neustradamus
it is on it like ejabberd before... ;)
-
Neustradamus
ok !
-
ralphm
stpeter: I recently learned that three simple dictionary words, separated by spaces, should have enough bits of entropy to be reasonably secure
-
ralphm
Wonder if that's true
-
Kev
I think the usual pattern is four.
-
Kev
But I'll believe that three is sufficient.
-
Kev
Four certainly has more entropy than an 8character alphanumberspecial using the usual rules.
-
stpeter
ralphm: well, this password is for my PGP key, so I was being paranoid :-)
-
ralphm
right
-
Kev
But I think the maths is fairly easy.
-
Kev
Assume 100 valid chars in the usual passwords, so that's 100^8 combinations.
-
Kev
sigsegv:devel/swift/swift/> wc -l /usr/share/dict/words 8:59pm 235886 /usr/share/dict/words
-
Kev
Assume four words, so that's 235886^4 combinations.
-
Kev
>>> 100**8 10000000000000000 >>> 235886**4 3096054976816887360016L
-
ralphm
http://xkcd.com/936/
-
Kev
Yes.
-
ralphm
for those visual learners
-
stpeter
heh, someone pinged just now about an XMPP implementation that doesn't really handle presence correctly for multiple resources -- but it seems that we're not clear about such things in RFC 6121, perhaps because we just assumed that clients would do the right thing about displaying presence correctly (or perhaps we need a XEP on this topic)
-
stpeter
things like "don't show the user as offline just because one of the user's resource sent unavailable"
-
ralphm
hah
-
ralphm
I've heard many people refer to our priority stuff to bat shit crazy, too
-
Tobias
stpeter, hehe
-
Tobias
i think i stumbled upon that strange sentence while reading up probes stuff