XMPP Council - 2013-08-28

01:06:29 m&m has joined
01:06:57 m&m has left
01:07:00 m&m has joined
02:18:33 m&m has left
03:02:06 Tobias has left
03:43:50 Lance has left
09:18:50 Kev has left
09:19:14 Tobias has joined
09:31:13 Kev has left
09:33:35 Tobias has left
09:34:37 Tobias has joined
10:46:53 Tobias has left
10:47:07 Tobias has joined
11:38:54 Tobias has left
11:39:25 Tobias has joined
11:41:36 Tobias has left
11:42:13 Tobias has joined
12:10:22 MattJ has joined
13:04:06 Tobias meeting today?
13:08:31 Kev Yes.
13:09:26 Tobias k
13:12:47 Kev Agenda is all of the stuck-at-proposed XEPs, plus your patch.
13:13:03 Tobias ahh
13:18:16 Kev I fear I'll have reviewed none of it and have to vote on list.
13:18:27 Kev Especially the 301 changes. Has anyone other than me reviewed that properly?
13:19:55 Tobias haven't yet..but can do so till next week
13:20:09 Tobias if that's still worth anything
13:22:45 Kev Got a fortnight to vote after today.
13:23:05 Tobias ok..will do that then
13:23:33 MattJ Likewise
13:31:53 m&m has joined
14:09:12 m&m has left
14:09:13 m&m has joined
14:25:20 bear has left
14:41:13 Tobias has left
14:55:05 Tobias has joined
14:56:42 Peter Waher has joined
15:02:14 fippo has joined
15:02:41 m&m so are we on like Donkey Kong?
15:03:17 Tobias in 9 minutes i think
15:03:22 maineboy has joined
15:03:31 m&m right
15:03:54 ralphm m&m: quoting Ice Cube, huh?
15:03:55 MattJ I pretend it's still 15:00
15:03:55 maineboy howdy
15:04:05 ralphm MattJ: me too
15:04:06 MattJ Howdy maineboy
15:04:10 maineboy is really stpeter but this is a backup backup account ;-)
15:04:14 MattJ Guessed :)
15:04:15 m&m I am a child of the 80's
15:04:26 ralphm :-D
15:04:40 Tobias maineboy, still haven't fixed your prosody instance?
15:04:46 maineboy Tobias: not yet
15:05:11 MattJ Yes, very strange stuff going on there...
15:05:21 maineboy Tobias: I need to make that a priority, but I have so many priorities...
15:05:35 maineboy MattJ: I might need to reinstall the OS ;-)
15:05:51 Tobias heh
15:09:25 maineboy I suppose I could at least have joined the room using my @cisco.com account to be semi-official
15:09:49 stpeter has joined
15:09:54 ralphm maineboy: are you the real stpeter?
15:10:10 stpeter ralphm: yes, just a different account
15:10:11 ralphm stpeter: and how can we tell?
15:10:20 stpeter right, that's the question
15:10:52 stpeter I can update a page at https://stpeter.im for you or send a PGP-signed message to council@xmpp.org if you'd like :-)
15:11:14 ralphm stpeter: what's the single must-visit attraction while in Brussels?
15:12:01 stpeter of course, someone else could have gotten control over stpeter's machine, learned his 40+ character PGP password, and is now sending messages as him :-)
15:12:16 Kev Blip.
15:12:17 stpeter but I did send a PGP-signed message to council@ for you ;-)
15:12:19 stpeter of course
15:12:23 ralphm pfft
15:12:26 stpeter how do we really know who people are?
15:12:26 ralphm let's start
15:12:31 m&m time
15:12:32 ralphm I'm here
15:12:37 Kev 1) Roll call.
15:12:42 stpeter identity is hard :-)
15:12:44 Kev ralphm: hoorah for pipelining? :)
15:12:48 m&m actually present for once
15:12:54 MattJ Here
15:12:56 Tobias here
15:12:59 Kev I'm here!
15:13:17 Kev 2) Tobias did http://xmpp.org/extensions/diff/api/xep/0082/diff/1.0/vs/1.1 ages ago. OK if we raise that one now?
15:13:33 Kev Where 'now' means 'on list in the next fortnight', I imagine.
15:13:49 Kev Actually, it's so short, we can just read it now.
15:14:09 MattJ +1
15:14:11 Kev +1
15:14:12 MattJ I just read it
15:14:14 Tobias +1
15:14:24 stpeter ah, that's better, yes
15:14:34 ralphm +1
15:14:43 m&m nrm
15:15:01 ralphm actually, many of my contacts appear to live in california, as all their mail comes in PDT
15:15:21 stpeter PDT is the new GMT
15:15:22 m&m this is better .. but I do wonder if "SHOULD covert" would be better than "are advised to convert"
15:15:59 m&m but, this is a definite improvement, so I'm +1
15:16:00 ralphm m&m: that would make it normative
15:16:04 m&m right
15:16:07 ralphm m&m: a bit too strong, I think
15:16:25 m&m given it's a security concern, I don't think it's too strong
15:16:26 Kev I don't think SHOULD is strictly needed, although I don't have terribly strong feelings on the matter.
15:16:35 MattJ Hmm
15:16:50 Kev Given a full house of +1, let's publish this, and it can be further wordsmithed in 1.2 :)
15:16:57 m&m exactly
15:16:59 MattJ A client might want to change to a random timezone for security purposes
15:17:07 m&m heh
15:17:08 Kev So, on the the XEPs-stuck-at-proposed:
15:17:16 ralphm MattJ: Like +0:19
15:17:23 stpeter heh
15:17:27 Kev 3) XEP-0301: In-Band Real Time Text Move to Draft?
15:17:42 MattJ Why this one first? :P
15:17:47 Kev I need to go through this and check the responses to all my comments from last time.
15:17:48 MattJ I'll vote on-list
15:17:56 m&m same as MattJ
15:17:56 Tobias will vote on list within a week
15:18:01 ralphm AOL
15:18:17 m&m wants to use the IST timezone
15:18:21 Kev I would recommend that anyone who hasn't yet done a full review of this version schedules it early in the cycle, because I've spent man-weeks on it at this point, it's not fast.
15:18:31 Kev 4) XEP-0297: Stanza Forwarding Draft?
15:18:31 m&m right
15:18:44 stpeter likes the reverse-numerical order
15:18:47 m&m I had an outstanding comment that was not addressed … but I cannot remember where that is now
15:18:50 Lance has joined
15:18:51 Kev I have doubts about the authors for this one, but it seems ok despite that disadvantage.
15:18:57 MattJ Story with 297... last call happened, feedback was received, and I incorporated it into a new version (0.5)
15:19:12 MattJ Then Dave gave some more feedback on that version: http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2013-June/027623.html
15:19:21 Kev MattJ: OK, so that's punting this and bringing 0.5 later, OK.
15:19:22 m&m maybe that's my problem … I didn't read 0.5 yet (-:
15:19:26 Tobias Kev, does it have implementations?
15:19:33 Kev Tobias: anyone doing MAM.
15:19:40 Tobias ah..ok
15:19:43 MattJ I don't know whether it should still head to draft, or wait for me to address these concerns (which I haven't fully reviewed)
15:20:05 Kev MattJ: At least 0.5 should be published first :)
15:20:13 Kev So we can Deal With This Later.
15:20:13 MattJ It is
15:20:19 Kev Hmm.
15:20:19 ralphm so the author doesn't think it is ready. Cool
15:20:25 Kev I see 0.4 on xmpp.org
15:20:34 MattJ It isn't!
15:20:34 stpeter BTW, the issue of forwarding (and max-forwards / loop prevention) came up in the STOX WG at the IETF, since SIP has loop-prevention methods in place but XMPP doesn't
15:20:58 stpeter hmm, yeah, was the XEP Editor remiss about http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0297.html ?
15:20:59 MattJ stpeter, you should have stayed anonymous :)
15:21:00 Kanchil stpeter: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0297.html: XEP-0297: Stanza Forwarding
15:21:19 MattJ stpeter, http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2013-June/027620.html
15:21:47 Kev Mooooving on :)
15:21:48 stpeter MattJ: OK!
15:21:57 Kev 5) XEP-0288: Bidirectional Server-to-Server Connections
15:22:00 Kev Draft?
15:22:01 ralphm Kev: so is it really Rejected now?
15:22:07 Kev I need to -onlist.
15:22:15 Kev ralphm: Presumably so :)
15:22:21 MattJ I think I'm +1, but it's been a while so I'll say on list
15:22:28 m&m I will vote on list for −0288
15:22:34 ralphm Kev: I'd like that, we don't have many of those
15:22:42 Tobias vote on list for that too
15:22:43 ralphm I have to review all the s2s stuff still
15:22:55 Kev I keep wanting to do a clean-room implementation of 220 and 288, but I keep failing to find time. Which is a shame.
15:23:09 Kev 6) XEP-0220: Server Dialback On list.
15:23:12 fippo i still have a patch for 0288 to address the feedback from zash and need to pester my co-author about the other issue raised by michal vaner. but those don't touch the substance
15:23:14 Kev Or rather.
15:23:18 Kev 6) XEP-0220: Server Dialback
15:23:19 ralphm Kev: same. I have a dial back implementation in Wokkel, but it sucks
15:23:22 Kev I need to vote on-list.
15:23:34 m&m Kev: same
15:23:36 MattJ Is 220 still ready for draft?
15:23:47 MattJ I still see lots of discussion going on
15:23:49 stpeter IMHO 220 is ready for Final :P
15:23:52 MattJ Heh
15:24:09 Kev I did review 220 the other week, but I'll do it again.
15:24:13 stpeter I still think it should've been Draft when we copied it over from a Proposed Standard RFC, but hey
15:24:18 Kev stpeter: Well, I found an issue during last review :p
15:24:20 fippo kev: your schema bug was fixed
15:24:26 Kev fippo: Yep, ta :)
15:24:33 stpeter Kev: there are issues with RFC 6120, too ;-)
15:24:41 Kev Don't tell anyone.
15:24:43 MattJ stpeter, when you put it that way, you're right.... what are we even discussing?
15:25:00 Kev 7) XEP-0152: Reachability Addresses
15:25:04 Kev I will also on-list this one.
15:25:07 stpeter well, I'd like to make sure it's in good shape, but perfection is not necessary for Draft status
15:25:10 m&m ditto
15:25:17 MattJ Kev, incomplete last call I think? Only Lance replied
15:25:32 stpeter and dialback has certainly been deployed for almost 13 years now ;-)
15:25:36 Kev MattJ: Ah, still?
15:25:40 MattJ afaict
15:26:05 MattJ m&m, did I imagine that you were using this for something?
15:26:38 m&m I was using reachability?
15:26:40 Kev I thought we had a protoxep to vote on, but I can't find it. Maybe I'm thinking of dynamic forms. M&M: Did you send your objections on-list for that one?
15:26:47 MattJ m&m, if not than I imagined it :)
15:26:52 m&m I have not yet, but I am doing it now
15:27:09 Kev OK, thanks.
15:27:13 stpeter reachability addresses are relevant to any CUSAX client, but I haven't yet convinced developers of CUSAX clients at Cisco to add the feature
15:27:15 m&m I can see uses for reachability, but I don't have anything concrete
15:27:32 m&m and what maineboy said
15:27:44 Kev I think that takes us to 9) Next meeting.
15:27:57 MattJ +1
15:27:58 Kev SBTSBC? We seem to just about cope with 20 minute meetings.
15:28:01 ralphm stpeter: jbox
15:28:01 stpeter see for instance http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ivov-xmpp-cusax-07#section-3.3
15:28:02 Kanchil stpeter: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ivov-xmpp-cusax-07#section-3.3: draft-ivov-xmpp-cusax-07 - CUSAX: Combined Use of the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) and the Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (XMPP)
15:28:27 m&m Kev: +1 on 9)
15:28:34 stpeter ralphm: hehe, I was just talking about jbox the other day with temas ;-)
15:28:37 Kev stpeter: I wonder if you could get any CUSAX people to express an opinion, then?
15:28:39 Tobias Kev, wfm
15:28:52 Kev and item 10) Any other business?
15:28:59 ralphm stpeter: how many implementations are there?
15:29:00 stpeter Kev: I've also poked the Jitsi folks about it, but will do so again
15:29:01 Kev Other than kicking us all out and replacing us with newer, younger versions.
15:29:09 Peter Waher I have one question
15:29:13 Kev Although I think that's probably not really Council business as much as Alex's.
15:29:14 Kev Peter Waher: shoot.
15:29:30 ralphm Kev: us roolz
15:29:37 Peter Waher I received a mail from UPnP members forum, stating a cooperation between UPnP+cloud and XMPP was underfoot
15:29:43 Peter Waher any information you can share?
15:29:46 fippo stpeter: i might implement it if your @cisco account announces it ;-)
15:29:52 Peter Waher I would be interested to participate in any such work
15:29:52 Kev Peter Waher: stpeter's your man, I think.
15:29:59 ralphm Peter Waher: that's nice
15:30:29 fippo kev: no, he's his (maine)boy
15:30:33 Peter Waher it relates to the IoT-effort we're working on
15:30:44 Kev fippo: Ho ho ho.
15:31:59 Kev stpeter: Weren't you involved in this?
15:32:07 Peter Waher any information you could share would be appreciated
15:32:08 stpeter Peter Waher: as far as I know that is not public information yet, so I haven't said anything
15:32:21 Kev OK.
15:32:28 Kev I guess that means we're done, then?
15:32:28 stpeter Peter Waher: is there something published on their website about it?
15:32:44 Peter Waher for UPnP members
15:32:48 stpeter http://upnp.org/news/press_releases/ hasn't been updated yet
15:32:52 Kanchil stpeter: http://upnp.org/news/press_releases/: UPnP Forum
15:32:59 stpeter sure, but we're not UPnP members here
15:33:10 stpeter as soon as they go public with it, I'd be happy to talk
15:33:42 Kev Right, I'll take that as done for the meeting.
15:33:44 Kev Thanks all!
15:33:49 MattJ Thanks Kev :)
15:33:51 Kev bangeth the gavel
15:33:52 Tobias thnaks Kev
15:33:57 Tobias thanks Kev
15:34:18 Peter Waher ok
15:34:31 Peter Waher I'll be waiting for any comments on the dynamic forms also
15:34:40 Peter Waher waiting to respond
15:34:46 Kev Peter Waher: Thanks.
15:35:10 stpeter Council calendar updated with meetings for September
15:35:40 stpeter http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0297.html updated too
15:35:41 Kanchil stpeter: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0297.html: XEP-0297: Stanza Forwarding
15:36:07 Kev stpeter: Ta.
15:36:41 m&m awaits minutes, so he can add a smorgasbord of TODOs
15:36:45 m&m (-:
15:36:50 Tobias stpeter, do all initials in the change history need to be listed in the authors section?
15:37:01 m&m /-:
15:38:58 stpeter Tobias: are you asking as a general policy matter and do you have an example?
15:39:58 Tobias stpeter, xep-0082 http://xmpp.org/extensions/diff/api/xep/0082/diff/1.0/vs/1.1 i barely added what other people suggested ;)
15:40:22 stpeter ah
15:40:26 stpeter hmm yes
15:40:36 Tobias ok
15:40:37 stpeter BTW I don't know why I'm listed as an author on XEP-0297 either ;-)
15:41:10 Tobias same goes for quite a lot papers in the scientific community it seems :/
15:41:16 stpeter Tobias: that's a good question — especially for XEPs that are in maintenance mode
15:42:37 stpeter I've certainly fixed things in older XEPs and didn't add myself as a co-author, although usually I'm already an author on all that stuff ;-)
15:43:15 Tobias right
15:44:38 stpeter and sometimes we take over specifications from people who have disappeared, and the new maintainer is added as a co-author if they make some significant changes
15:44:51 stpeter we might want to be clearer about our policies in such cases
15:45:29 stpeter and also figure out how to do more "collective authorship" (e.g., Council members or XSF members or other help out with fixing bugs like the one in XEP-0082)
15:46:12 maineboy has joined
15:46:13 maineboy :P
15:46:32 Kev maineboy: Are your other accounts still having issues on the server?
15:46:36 maineboy although Adium (which I'm using here) always shows me as "Peter Saint-Andre"
15:46:46 maineboy Kev: AFAICT yes
15:47:04 Kev Curious. As we had an 'automatic restart' earlier.
15:47:05 maineboy but that's off-topic for this chatroom
15:48:12 MattJ maineboy, you provided the schema for 297 :)
15:48:26 maineboy BTW, I'll note that draft-ietf-precis-framework is now in Working Group Last Call, which means that draft-ietf-xmpp-6122bis (the addressing / i18n stuff) will go to WGLC before too long, too
15:48:52 ralphm maineboy: how did those tests against our stringpreps go?
15:48:53 maineboy MattJ: ah, schemas are purely a mechanical exercise IMHO, just add me to the acknowledgements
15:48:55 Kev maineboy: It is, but you're not my friend on that account :)
15:48:57 Peter Waher has left
15:49:42 maineboy ralphm: I have some Python code to help me check codepoint handling, but I haven't applied them directly to the XMPP cases yet
15:50:24 ralphm oh
15:51:00 maineboy so I need to dig into the Python again and finish that up
15:51:17 maineboy also need to do some planning for the XMPP Summit
15:54:42 ralphm ight
15:54:44 ralphm right
15:55:16 Lance has left
15:58:54 MattJ ralphm, how's FOSDEM looking?
15:58:58 Lance has joined
16:03:19 maineboy sigh, I have a lot of Internet-Drafts to finish up by the end of the year … http://www.arkko.com/tools/allstats/petersaint-andre.html
16:03:24 Kanchil maineboy: http://www.arkko.com/tools/allstats/petersaint-andre.html: Peter Saint-Andre Data (all documents)
16:04:09 maineboy PRECIS, STOX, 6122bis, 2141bis, 3406bis … yikes
16:04:24 maineboy after that I think I'll take a break from publishing RFCs ;-)
16:08:30 fippo don't forget the DNA drafts
16:08:39 maineboy might not finish those this year
16:08:50 ralphm MattJ: I just sent out the e-mail. Thanks for the reminder
16:09:03 maineboy Matt and I are working to update the POSH spec, but with the goal of making it easy to implement
16:09:12 maineboy running code and all that
16:09:46 fippo even right... reminds me that I need to fix a couple of bugs in mine (-:
16:09:50 maineboy heh
16:09:59 ralphm bah, code just breaks
16:10:08 maineboy we plan to submit a new version of the POSH spec by the end of next week
16:10:23 maineboy and DNA along with it
16:10:58 fippo remember that there is still an issue in DNA over at github :-)
16:11:06 maineboy ah, will check that
16:12:52 fippo oh, pull request even
17:00:20 Neustradamus has left
17:01:00 Neustradamus has joined
17:03:07 fippo has left
18:04:21 maineboy has left
18:05:05 maineboy has joined
18:06:21 maineboy has left
19:08:40 Lance has left
19:18:18 Lance has joined
19:49:36 Lance has left
19:56:58 Lance has joined
20:14:47 maineboy has joined
20:15:50 jabberjocke has joined
20:59:59 stpeter has joined
21:33:49 stpeter has left
21:33:55 maineboy has left
22:15:17 Lance has left
22:28:28 Lance has joined
22:39:51 m&m has left
22:50:29 Lance has left
23:27:36 Lance has joined
23:42:28 maineboy has joined