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Zash
Why, Dave Cridland, why?
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ralphm
Zash: disappointed he joined Twitter?
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Zash
Who what why where how?
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Zash
re http://logs.xmpp.org/council/130911/#19:47:26
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Kanchil
Zash: http://logs.xmpp.org/council/130911/#19:47:26: Chatroom logs for council@muc.xmpp.org (Wednesday, September 11, 2013)
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Dave Cridland
Zash, Certificate pinning via TACK?
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Dave Cridland
Zash, Seems like a substantial amount of work for little gain. You can get the same general protection from DANE - that is, protection from third-party CAs issuing bad certs - with a lot more, for less effort.
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Zash
Dave Cridland: But TACK seems to have a bigger marketing budget!
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Zash
So it'll win!
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Zash
:(
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Dave Cridland
The advantage of TACK is that is handles this particular pinning case without infrastructure support. That's certainly useful, of course.
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Zash
ralphm: Why is Thijs "xnyhps" not on planet jabber yet? :)
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Tobias
but TACK doesn't seem to be implemented in the foreseeable future, or is it?
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Zash
DNSSEC deployment isn't that fast either
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Dave Cridland
Tobias, TLSlite implements it I think. I assume so anyway.
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Dave Cridland
Zash, That *seems* faster to me.
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Tobias
TLSlite, what's that? the python tls implementation
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Zash
Something like HSTS for XMPP should be fairly simple ...
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Tobias
is HSTS really needed? TLS is the default in the XMPP world, unlike the HTTP world
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Dave Cridland
The intent is to protect against future downgrade attacks.
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Zash
Right.
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ralphm
Zash: because I'm slow
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Tobias
Dave Cridland, downgrade from TLS to non-TLS?
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ralphm
Zash: and had a funeral yesterday
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Zash
Tobias: Strip the starttls advertisment.
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Zash
ralphm: Oh, sorry. No hurry.
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Dave Cridland
ie, I connect to my server, and get my connection policy blob. Next day, I connect to my server, and it has no TLS, but my connection policy blob says my server always offers TLS, so I ditch the connection.
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Tobias
right
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Tobias
but shouldn't clients complain anyway if TLS is not available?
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Zash
We could just never allow non-TLS if TLS succeeded once.
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Tobias
Zash, right..or that
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Zash
And never allow invalid certs if the cert was valid once
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Zash
etc
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Dave Cridland
Zash, There are operational issues there, I suspect.
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Tobias
could completely life in the implementations
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Tobias
without need of standard
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Zash
Yeah
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Zash
Something like HSTS would be an explicit approval of doing that.
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Zash
I'm not sure we really need it
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Dave Cridland
Zash, More importantly, that's a hand-waving exercise - there's no way to know if your clients support that, and there's enough kinks and choices that a pathway through to some kind of downgrade might be important.
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Dave Cridland
For real entertainment, we could have a XMLSec signed document with the connection security policy in it, and then be able to access that via a number of methods. But hey.
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Kev
iq:get after authentication.
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Kev
I win.
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Tobias
aren't you supposed to be holidaying? ;)
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Zash
Having DANE records published also implies that tls should be supported.
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Dave Cridland
I was thinking in terms of iq:get from other servers and such.
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Dave Cridland
Zash, Yes, this is certainly true.
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Kev
Tobias: Never reveal in public when someone's not at home.
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Kev
Tobias: And yes, although I'm back home now.
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Tobias
Kev, ah.oops.right..sry
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Dave Cridland
Tobias, It's OK, I'm sure Kanchil keeps an eye on the place.
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Tobias
Dave Cridland, sure
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Tobias
cool...drag and drop invite worked for waqas :)
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waqas
Hello
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Tobias
waqas, we're just discussing security improvements to XMPP
- waqas has strong opinions on that...
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Tobias
waqas, which are?
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waqas
Well, there are multiple separate aspects of the XMPP network that are weak. Bad clients (cert verification issues, cipher suites, etc), bad server deployments (SSLv2, bad cipher suites, PLAIN over unencrypted), server software defaults, etc
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waqas
Then we have the separate class of security missing entirely from XMPP: encrypted jingle, e2e encryption, etc
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waqas
Some of this requires activism, while some requires standards work
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Tobias
bad ciphers and so probably falls into the activism area
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waqas
Something like a validation service might help the server deployment side of things a lot
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Kev
I think an Informational XEP here might be in order.
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waqas
I'm +1 to that
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Tobias
also i'd interesting to have some kind of MITM protection, i.e. if your usual cert is suddenly replaced by some other strange cert (i know it sounds vague)
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waqas
It would also be nice if support for that XEP was required to get on the xmpp.net server list :)
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Tobias
waqas, the xmpp.net list is a whole other topic...it doesn't seem to really scale
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Kev
Tobias: I think an Informational for that is interesting too.
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waqas
A validation service would help it scale to some degree. For better or worse, a lot of public XMPP deployments want to be on that. If the XSF can use that to upgrade the security of the XMPP network, that's a good thing IMO.
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ralphm
another thing is that server implementations generally don't alert admins about bad certs
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Tobias
Kev, what would be the rough gist of it?
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Kev
Tobias: Sounds too much like work for a holiday :p
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Dave Cridland
You've seen PSA's new I-D on XMPP and TLS?
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Kev
Only that it exists.
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Tobias
Kev :P
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Kev
That covers cyphers, but not pinning stuffs, I think?
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Dave Cridland
Right, it addresses much of waqas's easily addressable concerns.
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Kev
I'll read it at some point :)
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waqas
It seems like a good start
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Dave Cridland
waqas, But yes, we should require claims of conformance to various specifications to be listed, I think.
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waqas
Does anyone know how bad compatibility issues are with dropping SSLv3? Is most everything supporting TLS1.0 these days?
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Dave Cridland
waqas, Most of the figures I've seen relate to browsers. I don't know about XMPP, I suspect we're generally TLSv1.0 and up.
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ralphm
I also want to note that SSLv3 is entirely not supported, spec-wise.
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ralphm
and never has been for XMPP 1.0
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waqas
I assume most of you have read xnyhps's (Adium dev) recent posts regarding client cipher suites?
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Dave Cridland
I've not. Link?
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Zash
https://blog.thijsalkema.de/blog/2013/08/26/the-state-of-tls-on-xmpp-1/
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waqas
The three "State of XMPP TLS" posts: https://blog.thijsalkema.de/
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waqas
He has been gathering data on what cipher suites, etc different actual clients support
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waqas
This sort of information can feed directly into client+server software configuration defaults, and given most deployments don't bother changing defaults, would help improve security
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waqas
It also gives data required for pestering software vendors to fix their stuff
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waqas
Also, jabber.org might be able to do a whole lot in getting deployments updated. If jabber.org disabled certain bad things, e.g., SSLv3 or export ciphers or required TLS crypto for everyone except Google (can the software pull that off?) or Google went away, etc, other deployments of both servers and clients would simply be forced to follow.
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waqas
Few compatibility concerns in XMPP land has been as strong as the desire to stay compatible with jabber.org, and this is a fact which can be used to force change
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waqas
*have
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Dave Cridland
waqas, I think M-Link's manuals are publi, and as such, I think I can safely say that TLS options in M-Link are global, and not tied to peer controls - TLS requirement and certificate pinning are at the peer level, though.
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ralphm
waqas: the problem with whitelisting GTalk is that you have to do it based on the resolved host, because there are so many domains there.
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Tobias
right...or delegating new user registrations to servers which have decent security
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ralphm
I think even Prosody doesn't support it in that way.
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waqas
Yep, which is bad, but such a thing would be strictly better than what we currently have
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Dave Cridland
ralphm, Ah, good point. So jabber.org couldn't simply whitelist Google; it does these things by name.
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waqas
And I freely admit it's a bit of wishful thinking, which while possible, isn't implemented anywhere
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Zash
ralphm: Plugin could do that ;)
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Dave Cridland
Of course, this is one thing we all thought we could do with Google dropping S2S, except they kind of haven't.
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waqas
And I suspect they might not for a long time
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waqas
Heck they might decide to never drop it, and we'll have this insecure s2s situation forever
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ralphm
Zash: of course, but the existing config support for that only works on domains
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waqas
I notice mention of HSTS in the room history. That's a nice-to-have thing. We don't have a spec like that, but a client notifying me when it connects to a server and has stuff changed (different cert, but more importantly: weaker security), would be useful to me at least
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waqas
I'm not entirely clear on what this discussion is. Part of the council meeting? Just random discussion after it? :)
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Zash
waqas: Do you think we need a HSTS-ish spec?
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Zash
spec/protocol
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Dave Cridland
waqas, Random discussion because we'd not left since yesterday.
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waqas
Could the current HTTP-ish HSTS spec be used in some way? I don't recall what it looked like. Was it just an HTTP header? If so, a stream feature would be all the spec work required?
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Zash
waqas: Header saying don't accept plain connections for N time
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ralphm
so, everyone here, if you are planning on going to the XMPP Summit in Portland, and haven't signed up in the wiki yet: WHY NOT!
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Zash
ralphm: Expensive and far away.
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Dave Cridland
And if you're not coming, I think the six of us who are will find a really good bar and whole up for the evening.
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Dave Cridland
Hole up, even.
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waqas
Dave Cridland: MattJ and I don't drinkā¦ we'll just be staring at you the whole time
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Tobias
waqas, +1 on that
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ralphm
Zash: to be sure, I wasn't asking why people were not planning to come.
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ralphm
Zash: it appears that we have a bunch of people that are going to, but we don't know about them
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Tobias
Zash, was fosdem acceptable regarding the costs?
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Dave Cridland
waqas, You're coming?
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waqas
Dave Cridland: Well, I'm in the US, and have a realtimeconf ticket, so: probably
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Zash
Tobias: I think so. But I skimped on accomodation costs by staying with friends.
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Tobias
waqas, US must have a nice visa process ^^
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Dave Cridland
Tobias, Yeah, but he has to get through TSA with that name...
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waqas
Tobias: Surprisingly easier than Belgium. It was a lot more well-defined.
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Tobias
Dave Cridland, he could just put a turban on and would be fine
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waqas
And the TSA was being weird both times I arrived. The security seemed to be missing entirely at JFK.
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Dave Cridland
JFK can be hit and miss. It's usually horribly crowded for me, though hey seem to be rebuilding it.
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ralphm
I never went there
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waqas
No scanners, no questioning, no baggage checks (I literally could have walked out with anyone's luggage both times), I saw no real evidence of the TSA
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ralphm
AMS->PDX FTW
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Tobias
PDX?
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ralphm
Tobias: Portland, OR
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Tobias
ahh
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Dave Cridland
ralphm, I'll be CWL->AMS->???->DCA, and DCA->PDX, then PDX->AMS->CWL.
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m&m
oy
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ralphm
Dave Cridland: AMS->PDX->SFO->AMS for me
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ralphm
m&m: hi
- m&m waves
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ralphm
waqas: go sign up at http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_14
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Dave Cridland
ralphm, Right; I can't fly into DCA from outside the US, and refuse to fly into Dulles, so...
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Kanchil
ralphm: http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_14: Summit 14 - XMPP Wiki
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waqas
Well, I need to check out of this hotel, was just about to leave when Tobias invited me here, so I'll be on a train for an hour. Hopefully my input was useful in some way :)
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Dave Cridland
waqas, Sign up first.
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waqas
Done
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ralphm
waqas: what Dave Cridland said, because we can then maybe still do a hotel package deal
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waqas
Ah good, I was wondering about what to do about a hotel
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Dave Cridland
That's now 6 awesome people. And me.
- Dave Cridland waits for someone else to tell him he's awesome too.
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Kev
I won't be able to make it.
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waqas
I'm running off now folks
- waqas waves
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Kev
Bibi.
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ralphm
Kev: good save regarding Dave's ponderance
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Dave Cridland
Yeah, thanks guys.
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Zash
Dave Cridland: You're awesome.
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ralphm
For what it is worth, I did include you in my oob assertion.
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m&m
I'm going to be missing out myself
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m&m
would have been good to hang out with such awesome people
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m&m
and Dave
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ralphm
hibyehi stpeter