XMPP Council - 2013-10-09

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  19. Tobias anything on the agenda for today?
  20. Kev No new things. And I think I'm the only person with outstanding votes. I'll try to get the minutes for last week out first, but might fail.
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  22. MattJ Am I allowed to submit a XEP a couple of hours before the meeting? :)
  23. Tobias as long as you don't expect any of us to read it by then
  24. MattJ What if it's short?
  25. Kev The same stands :)
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  36. m&m T - 10 minutes
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  38. stpeter greetings
  39. ralphm MattJ: sure you can :-D
  40. ralphm stpeter: hi
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  42. Tobias howdy
  43. Kev Howdy.
  44. Kev Every so often I realise that I really do like the diff tool :)
  45. stpeter I'm sorry if I've gotten people started on saying "howdy" - I think it's a Western America thing
  46. stpeter Kev: a big +1 to that
  47. stpeter many thanks to Tobias
  48. Tobias i've heard people prefer rfcdiff like diffs
  49. Kev That was the implication, I just can't quite come out to say it :D
  50. Kev Tobias: With which I'm not familiar. But these work for me.
  51. Kev (these = extensions/diff/)
  52. Kev Righty, 'tis time.
  53. ralphm stpeter: no problem, I know how y'all be doing them things
  54. Tobias it's basically two column full text with changes highlighted
  55. Kev 1) Roll call.
  56. stpeter ralphm: hey, y'all is a Southern America thing
  57. stpeter I used to say that when I lived in Atlanta :P
  58. ralphm stpeter: I'm just mixing the whole lot
  59. ralphm is here
  60. Kev I'm here too :)
  61. stpeter my favorite construction is "y'all'll"
  62. Tobias so am i
  63. stpeter but anyway
  64. ralphm stpeter: what about cyall?
  65. Tobias MattJ, ping
  66. Kev m&m: ping
  67. MattJ Pong
  68. MattJ Presence
  69. MattJ t
  70. Kev Looks a bit like trying to verb presence.
  71. Kev Yeah, I'm, like, totally presenced.
  72. stpeter :)
  73. m&m pong
  74. m&m sorry, got caught in something
  75. Kev Excellent. We're all here to not discuss anything.
  76. Kev I have nothing on the agenda (although a 301 vote I need to place).
  77. ralphm Kev: except for the MattJ proposal
  78. Tobias haven't seen it on the list
  79. Kev ralphm: The one he didn't send? :)
  80. ralphm I'd like to accept that as experimentall
  81. m&m I see no proposal
  82. m&m therefore it doesn't exist (-:
  83. ralphm hmm
  84. ralphm MattJ: what's up with that?
  85. stpeter I received it but didn't have time to process it
  86. stpeter so it's not in the inbox
  87. MattJ It was only submitted to the editor a matter of hours ago
  88. ralphm :-(
  89. MattJ It's http://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/xep-json.html
  90. Kanchil MattJ: http://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/xep-json.html: XEP-xxxx: JSON container
  91. stpeter yeah this stuff like commuting got in the way
  92. Kev Next week. Or the week after, or whatever.
  93. Tobias MattJ, you could have back dated it a couple weeks ^^
  94. MattJ Y'all have to commit to accepting it now, though ;)
  95. ralphm Kev: you can read it in 30 seconds
  96. ralphm really
  97. Kev ralphm: I don't think any harm is going to come of doing it next week :)
  98. Kev 2) Date of next meeting.
  99. ralphm Kev: or from doing it this week
  100. ralphm I won't be available next week
  101. ralphm I'll be on a plane
  102. Kev Me neither.
  103. Kev (Although not on a plane)
  104. Kev Week after that is summitish?
  105. m&m yes
  106. ralphm Week after I'm on a plane again, I believe
  107. Kev And we can't schedule for the 30th anyway, because we won't be Council then.
  108. Kev (Vote is on the 29th according to the calendar)
  109. ralphm Kev: hence my proposal
  110. stpeter MattJ: published to the inbox
  111. Kev OK, I'll read it now.
  112. MattJ Thanks!
  113. stpeter http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/json-containers.html
  114. Kanchil stpeter: http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/json-containers.html: XEP-xxxx: JSON Containers
  115. m&m MattJ: your JSON specification reference is incorrect (-:
  116. MattJ Oh?
  117. MattJ Oh.
  118. m&m depending on which standards body you talk to, its either RFC 4627 or ECMA-404
  119. MattJ Yeah, I can fix it to point to the RFC
  120. ralphm Not objecting to publish as a XEP.
  121. m&m 4627bis is in progress
  122. stpeter heh
  123. Tobias or define a new standard...not only Base64 can have tons of standards
  124. m&m no objections to publishing, but not terribly excited about it either
  125. m&m MattJ: Oh, and specication
  126. Kev So, I don't really understand half of this.
  127. ralphm m&m: I've been promoting this idea before, wasn't aware that MattJ had written this spec (or I forgot) and Justin Karneges has just published an article about doing the same.
  128. stpeter I could definitely see people using JSON containers
  129. Kev Shoving it in other protocol namespaces: Understood. Shoving it directly into messages: not understood.
  130. ralphm https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6520524
  131. MattJ People *already* shove JSON into <body/>
  132. Kev MattJ: Not in standards, though.
  133. ralphm *that* is horrible
  134. MattJ I have had to deal with such "APIs" in the past
  135. stpeter heh
  136. stpeter yeah
  137. m&m I agree with Kev
  138. stpeter let's at least make it clean
  139. Kev If we're telling people how do Do This Right, why not say "And always namespace it according to use"?
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  141. MattJ SHOULD?
  142. m&m why not MUST?
  143. stpeter nod, the pure message stuff seems strange, IMHO it usually needs some context
  144. ralphm Kev: my motivation to accept this is along the same lines as the other payload format XEPs (User Mood, etc)
  145. MattJ m&m, the context may be provided elsewhere
  146. ralphm I'm not to keen on direct embedding in messages like this
  147. ralphm More interested in the pubsub use
  148. MattJ Ok, happy to amend it then
  149. m&m MattJ: I don't think it will kill them to re-iterate the context
  150. Kev I'm happy to accept 0.0.2 as experimental, which says to use contexts.
  151. m&m this isn't alg:none bad, but I'm not keen on it
  152. ralphm that said, I know some developers have embedded Atom entries in messages as well
  153. MattJ If people continue to use JSON in <body/>, I'll mark the date this was decided :)
  154. ralphm arguably without context
  155. Kev MattJ: If people continue to use <body/>, then demanding context isn't going to be what stops them.
  156. m&m MattJ: people put all sorts of things into <body/> — that doesn't make them correct
  157. ralphm and I have gotten suggested if we could do something where you'd have the pubsub notification meta data *next to* the payload
  158. Kev The spec already says 'shove it in the json namespace'. I don't see "shove the json namespace somewhere relevant" as any harder.
  159. stpeter hmm
  160. MattJ It's also more about defining the json element, than dictating what you do with it
  161. ralphm Kev: I suppose you can supply context with a sibling element
  162. ralphm it doesn't have to be wrapping it
  163. Kev ralphm: Using siblings for context is pretty ugly, though.
  164. MattJ I don't see why we need rules about where it MUST NOT be embedded
  165. stpeter well, I could see that people would know the context from the application they've developed (closed network kind of thing), and entities just pass around json blobs to their heart's content
  166. Kev I have a preference for MUST put it in a context, I'll settle for SHOULD and form a concrete opinion before Draft.
  167. Kev Or new Council can, rather.
  168. stpeter nods to Kev
  169. m&m wfm
  170. MattJ I'm ok for compromising to SHOULD
  171. stpeter rough consensus! ;-)
  172. MattJ :)
  173. ralphm yay
  174. Kev OK.
  175. ralphm and we have another XEP
  176. ralphm :-D
  177. MattJ I'll update it ASAP
  178. Kev ralphm: I don't think we have a Tobias opinion yet.
  179. Kev At least, I can't find it.
  180. m&m MattJ: don't forget to change the namespace to end with ":0" instead of ":tmp"
  181. Zash ... Mam
  182. Tobias Kev, i'm fine with SHOULD for now too
  183. m&m Kev: we're still pending MattJ's update, though
  184. Kev m&m: I'm happy to pre-approve this one.
  185. Kev But I'm not pushing anyone else to do so.
  186. ralphm m&m: I strongly believe in publish, then discuss details
  187. m&m I've already stated non-objection
  188. Kev I think this is our last meeting, so I think we're punting for next Council if we don't decide today.
  189. Kev (Not that this is a problem)
  190. ralphm m&m: right
  191. Kev Ok, so everyone is non-objecting the pending 0.0.2?
  192. m&m as long as something doesn't smell like duplication (without justification) or have very obvious flaws, I don't object
  193. MattJ Yay
  194. ralphm Kev: I think I've seen no objections from everyone(!)
  195. Kev OK.
  196. Kev 3) Date of next.
  197. Kev I think we're saying that this was our last meeting.
  198. m&m it sounds like "none"
  199. m&m /agreed
  200. Tobias wfm
  201. Kev In which case
  202. Kev 4) Ta.
  203. MattJ ok, me too
  204. ralphm Thanks all!
  205. Kev I'd like to thank everyone for their work this year.
  206. MattJ ++
  207. Tobias thank you
  208. ralphm You've been a pleasure to work with.
  209. Kev 5) Any other business
  210. Tobias Kev, thanks for chairing
  211. m&m gracias
  212. ralphm +1
  213. Zash Thanks yall
  214. m&m I've decided not to run again
  215. Kev m&m: You can always come back later, you've done it before :)
  216. ralphm :-D
  217. m&m I've struggled to keep up as it is (-:
  218. Tobias and for those reappliers, there are a couple days left to put yourself on the wiki page
  219. m&m but I also think it would be best for there to be new blood
  220. MattJ After swinging to and fro for a while, I finally decided to run again
  221. Kev I think we're guaranteed at least some new blood next year then, and yes, I agree this is healthy.
  222. stpeter checks http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2013
  223. Kanchil stpeter: http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2013: Board and Council Elections 2013 - XMPP Wiki
  224. Kev But despite that, I decided to run again :)
  225. Kev Anyway.
  226. stpeter heh
  227. Kev I think we're out of other businesses?
  228. Kev In which case...
  229. m&m I could always vote "no" for you (-:
  230. m&m none from me
  231. Kev m&m: So can everyone else :)
  232. Kev ...Thanks y'all.
  233. stpeter all hail the 12th council :-)
  234. Kev bangs the final gavel.
  235. MattJ Thanks Kev
  236. m&m thanks very much everyone
  237. stpeter indeed, thanks Kev!
  238. stpeter I have a sense that m&m might be back someday :-)
  239. m&m heh
  240. m&m possibly
  241. stpeter heck, even I might run for the Council again sometime
  242. m&m I always find myself drawn to legacy JSON
  243. m&m (-:
  244. stpeter heehee
  245. m&m goes back to I-Ds and cross-SDO shinanigans
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  249. Kev stpeter: And I'm +1 on 301.
  250. stpeter ok!
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