XMPP Council - 2013-10-09

anything on the agenda for today?

No new things. And I think I'm the only person with outstanding votes. I'll try to get the minutes for last week out first, but might fail.

Am I allowed to submit a XEP a couple of hours before the meeting? :)

as long as you don't expect any of us to read it by then

What if it's short?

The same stands :)

T - 10 minutes

greetings

MattJ: sure you can :-D

stpeter: hi

howdy

Howdy.

Every so often I realise that I really do like the diff tool :)

I'm sorry if I've gotten people started on saying "howdy" - I think it's a Western America thing

Kev: a big +1 to that

many thanks to Tobias

i've heard people prefer rfcdiff like diffs

That was the implication, I just can't quite come out to say it :D

Tobias: With which I'm not familiar. But these work for me.

(these = extensions/diff/)

Righty, 'tis time.

stpeter: no problem, I know how y'all be doing them things

it's basically two column full text with changes highlighted

1) Roll call.

ralphm: hey, y'all is a Southern America thing

I used to say that when I lived in Atlanta :P

stpeter: I'm just mixing the whole lot

I'm here too :)

my favorite construction is "y'all'll"

so am i

but anyway

stpeter: what about cyall?

MattJ, ping

m&m: ping

Pong

Presence

t

Looks a bit like trying to verb presence.

Yeah, I'm, like, totally presenced.

:)

pong

sorry, got caught in something

Excellent. We're all here to not discuss anything.

I have nothing on the agenda (although a 301 vote I need to place).

Kev: except for the MattJ proposal

haven't seen it on the list

ralphm: The one he didn't send? :)

I'd like to accept that as experimentall

I see no proposal

therefore it doesn't exist (-:

hmm

MattJ: what's up with that?

I received it but didn't have time to process it

so it's not in the inbox

It was only submitted to the editor a matter of hours ago

:-(

It's http://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/xep-json.html

MattJ: http://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/xep-json.html: XEP-xxxx: JSON container

yeah this stuff like commuting got in the way

Next week. Or the week after, or whatever.

MattJ, you could have back dated it a couple weeks ^^

Y'all have to commit to accepting it now, though ;)

Kev: you can read it in 30 seconds

really

ralphm: I don't think any harm is going to come of doing it next week :)

2) Date of next meeting.

Kev: or from doing it this week

I won't be available next week

I'll be on a plane

Me neither.

(Although not on a plane)

Week after that is summitish?

yes

Week after I'm on a plane again, I believe

And we can't schedule for the 30th anyway, because we won't be Council then.

(Vote is on the 29th according to the calendar)

Kev: hence my proposal

MattJ: published to the inbox

OK, I'll read it now.

Thanks!

http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/json-containers.html

stpeter: http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/json-containers.html: XEP-xxxx: JSON Containers

MattJ: your JSON specification reference is incorrect (-:

Oh?

Oh.

depending on which standards body you talk to, its either RFC 4627 or ECMA-404

Yeah, I can fix it to point to the RFC

Not objecting to publish as a XEP.

4627bis is in progress

heh

or define a new standard...not only Base64 can have tons of standards

no objections to publishing, but not terribly excited about it either

MattJ: Oh, and specication

So, I don't really understand half of this.

m&m: I've been promoting this idea before, wasn't aware that MattJ had written this spec (or I forgot) and Justin Karneges has just published an article about doing the same.

I could definitely see people using JSON containers

Shoving it in other protocol namespaces: Understood. Shoving it directly into messages: not understood.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6520524

People *already* shove JSON into <body/>

MattJ: Not in standards, though.

*that* is horrible

I have had to deal with such "APIs" in the past

heh

yeah

I agree with Kev

let's at least make it clean

If we're telling people how do Do This Right, why not say "And always namespace it according to use"?

SHOULD?

why not MUST?

nod, the pure message stuff seems strange, IMHO it usually needs some context

Kev: my motivation to accept this is along the same lines as the other payload format XEPs (User Mood, etc)

m&m, the context may be provided elsewhere

I'm not to keen on direct embedding in messages like this

More interested in the pubsub use

Ok, happy to amend it then

MattJ: I don't think it will kill them to re-iterate the context

I'm happy to accept 0.0.2 as experimental, which says to use contexts.

this isn't alg:none bad, but I'm not keen on it

that said, I know some developers have embedded Atom entries in messages as well

If people continue to use JSON in <body/>, I'll mark the date this was decided :)

arguably without context

MattJ: If people continue to use <body/>, then demanding context isn't going to be what stops them.

MattJ: people put all sorts of things into <body/> — that doesn't make them correct

and I have gotten suggested if we could do something where you'd have the pubsub notification meta data *next to* the payload

The spec already says 'shove it in the json namespace'. I don't see "shove the json namespace somewhere relevant" as any harder.

hmm

It's also more about defining the json element, than dictating what you do with it

Kev: I suppose you can supply context with a sibling element

it doesn't have to be wrapping it

ralphm: Using siblings for context is pretty ugly, though.

I don't see why we need rules about where it MUST NOT be embedded

well, I could see that people would know the context from the application they've developed (closed network kind of thing), and entities just pass around json blobs to their heart's content

I have a preference for MUST put it in a context, I'll settle for SHOULD and form a concrete opinion before Draft.

Or new Council can, rather.

wfm

I'm ok for compromising to SHOULD

rough consensus! ;-)

:)

yay

OK.

and we have another XEP

:-D

I'll update it ASAP

ralphm: I don't think we have a Tobias opinion yet.

At least, I can't find it.

MattJ: don't forget to change the namespace to end with ":0" instead of ":tmp"

... Mam

Kev, i'm fine with SHOULD for now too

Kev: we're still pending MattJ's update, though

m&m: I'm happy to pre-approve this one.

But I'm not pushing anyone else to do so.

m&m: I strongly believe in publish, then discuss details

I've already stated non-objection

I think this is our last meeting, so I think we're punting for next Council if we don't decide today.

(Not that this is a problem)

m&m: right

Ok, so everyone is non-objecting the pending 0.0.2?

as long as something doesn't smell like duplication (without justification) or have very obvious flaws, I don't object

Yay

Kev: I think I've seen no objections from everyone(!)

OK.

3) Date of next.

I think we're saying that this was our last meeting.

it sounds like "none"

/agreed

wfm

In which case

4) Ta.

ok, me too

Thanks all!

I'd like to thank everyone for their work this year.

++

thank you

You've been a pleasure to work with.

5) Any other business

Kev, thanks for chairing

gracias

+1

Thanks yall

I've decided not to run again

m&m: You can always come back later, you've done it before :)

:-D

I've struggled to keep up as it is (-:

and for those reappliers, there are a couple days left to put yourself on the wiki page

but I also think it would be best for there to be new blood

After swinging to and fro for a while, I finally decided to run again

I think we're guaranteed at least some new blood next year then, and yes, I agree this is healthy.

stpeter: http://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2013: Board and Council Elections 2013 - XMPP Wiki

But despite that, I decided to run again :)

Anyway.

heh

I think we're out of other businesses?

In which case...

I could always vote "no" for you (-:

none from me

m&m: So can everyone else :)

...Thanks y'all.

all hail the 12th council :-)

Thanks Kev

thanks very much everyone

indeed, thanks Kev!

I have a sense that m&m might be back someday :-)

heh

possibly

heck, even I might run for the Council again sometime

I always find myself drawn to legacy JSON

(-:

heehee

stpeter: And I'm +1 on 301.

ok!