XMPP Council - 2013-12-18

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  72. Tobias Kev, why was the agenda titled 17-12-2013?
  73. Kev Because it was the 17th when I wrote it, and I'm not very smart.
  74. Tobias ahh..ok
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  78. Tobias i'll probably have to leave shortly after begin of the meeting. i'll post my votes on the list
  79. Kev Ta.
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  83. stpeter howdy
  84. stpeter bbiaf, need tea
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  86. Tobias fippo, what's latching?
  87. Peter Waher has joined
  88. fippo tobias: similar to TURN, i.e. a relay in the media path
  89. Tobias ahh..ok
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  92. stpeter hi Ralph!
  93. ralphm hi!
  94. stpeter and bear! :-)
  95. bear morning
  96. ralphm bear: better train your cat
  97. stpeter fires up some Glenn Gould to start the work day
  98. bear teleports to Peter's house
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  100. bear ralph, he's about as trained as you can make a cat - he no longer orders from Amazon via 1-click
  101. stpeter heehee
  102. ralphm :-)
  103. Kev Nearly time, it is.
  104. Kev 'tis time, 'tis time.
  105. stpeter are we almost there yet? ;-)
  106. ralphm Jingle on!
  107. Kev 1) Bread products()
  108. Kev I'm here.
  109. Lance here
  110. ralphm Croissant.
  111. fippo semmel
  112. Kev Tobias / MattJ.
  113. Tobias I'm not
  114. MattJ Here
  115. Kev 2) http://fippo.github.io/customxeps/extensions/jingle-sources.html Accept?
  116. Kev +1
  117. MattJ +1
  118. Lance +1
  119. fippo oh, this still says the example was taken from 5576
  120. fippo I can fix that before publication
  121. Kev I thought I checked the diff and it didn't any more.
  122. Kev Oops.
  123. MattJ I trusted you, fippo!
  124. stpeter trust, but verify!
  125. Kev Anyway, yes, please remove before publication.
  126. Kev 3) http://fippo.github.io/customxeps/extensions/jingle-grouping.html Accept?
  127. Lance +1
  128. Kev +1
  129. MattJ +1
  130. Kev I'm casually assuming fippo is +1
  131. fippo kev: thanks (-:
  132. Kev 4) Date of next.
  133. ralphm 8
  134. Kev 8th Jan?
  135. Lance lgtm
  136. fippo WFM
  137. Peter Waher I wonder what is missing for eventlogging to be approved as experimental and get a number?
  138. MattJ wfm
  139. Kev Peter Waher: That's done, isn't it?
  140. MattJ sorry, my ethernet cable fell out
  141. Kev Ah, no.
  142. Peter Waher well, it hasn't been published
  143. Kev Needs Fippo and Matt to not object.
  144. stpeter Kev: I think we were waiting for Council members to vote
  145. Kev There's another week for them to do so.
  146. fippo kev: no objections
  147. fippo (didn't I say that before?)
  148. Kev fippo: Not in response to the minutes, at least.
  149. Kev Just MattJ, then.
  150. Kev 5) AOB?
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  152. stpeter I mentioned another vote on XEP-0152
  153. fippo any new votes on colibri?
  154. MattJ Sorry, didn't know that was waiting on me - though I know BOSH is
  155. MattJ I'll get to it
  156. stpeter the previous Council did not complete its voting, and I made changes to address Council feedback
  157. Kev stpeter: I think the procedure, given xep1, is for another if Council doesn't finish voting by the end of term.
  158. fippo stpeter: is 0152 referenced by cusax?
  159. Kev Although I'm happy to skip that if everyone else is.
  160. stpeter fippo: yes
  161. stpeter Kev: yes, another vote for sure
  162. MattJ I'm happy with 152
  163. Kev fippo: No, that's still pending me to review it (colibri), I have a TODO.
  164. Lance +1 on 152
  165. stpeter but that can wait until the next meeting, I think (for 152)
  166. Kev stpeter: There was an "LC" missing from that sentence.
  167. fippo i'll review 0152 tomorrow, but it looked good
  168. stpeter Kev: ah, that I'm not completely sure of, but either way is fine with me
  169. stpeter and yes, it is referenced by RFC 7081
  170. Kev That is - I think xep1 says to LC again if Council doesn't finish voting by the end of term, but I'm not opposed to skipping it if everyone's happy to.
  171. stpeter (informationally, anyway)
  172. Kev Shall we schedule to vote on it on the 8th?
  173. stpeter Kev: you are right... If the XMPP Council does not complete voting on a XEP before the end of its term, the XMPP Extensions Editor shall issue a new Last Call on the Standards list and the newly-elected Council shall vote anew on the XEP after completion of the Last Call. This provides an opportunity for any member of the previous Council who had voted -1 to voice his or her concerns in a public forum before the new Council votes on the XEP.
  174. ralphm Did we even start voting?
  175. stpeter so let's follow our process :-)
  176. Kev stpeter: WFM.
  177. Kev Any other AOB?
  178. stpeter (BTW I also plan to ask the Council for a LC on XEP-0279)
  179. stpeter one AOB
  180. stpeter or 2 perhaps
  181. ralphm (i.e. 0152 is not listed in the tally for the 12th council)
  182. stpeter (1) are we OK with accepting proposals (like Philipp's) that have not gone through the inbox?
  183. Kev stpeter: Not in general, no.
  184. fippo stpeter: the xml is in the inbox actually
  185. Peter Waher So, am I waiting for input on eventlogging to continue?
  186. MattJ What practical difference does it make?
  187. MattJ Peter Waher, yes
  188. MattJ (from me, it seems)
  189. Peter Waher when can I expect this input?
  190. Kev Peter Waher: Within a week.
  191. ralphm Section 5 of XEP-0001 clearly shows that it is not ok.
  192. stpeter (2) see discussion about the liaison relationship with UPnP Forum, but that's before the XSF membership right now so no action required for the Council
  193. Peter Waher thanks
  194. Kev (People who don't vote in a meeting get a fortnight to do so on-list before they're DNV)
  195. stpeter MattJ: it doesn't make a practical difference, so I think it's fine to have people request publication in a less formal way, I just want to make sure we're all clear that this is fine :-)
  196. ralphm Although I am no longer on the council, I prefer we stick to the procedure
  197. MattJ If I can see rendered versions easily before voting, I'm not too concerned about what the URL is :)
  198. ralphm because it is a single location and notification to the standards@ list is part of it
  199. Kev I think this was a special case, as it was put in inbox, and there was a non-technical change needed when Council voted on it.
  200. Kev But in just about all cases, I think it should go through the inbox+Peter.
  201. ralphm I thought this was about the generic case, not this one.
  202. Peter Waher the tables in IM discussion, I would also appreciate some feedback on this issue
  203. Kev (I note we sometimes pre-approve stuff, too, which is ~= the same as this case)
  204. stpeter (as to inbox+Peter, I was thinking last night that we might want to turn the editor's role into a standing XSF Work Team, but I'll ponder that a bit more before suggesting it to the membership... :-)
  205. Peter Waher especially from Peter, since he's the author of XHTML-IM, and recommended a separate XEP in favor of using XHTML-IM
  206. Kev stpeter: That seems like a sensible thing to do.
  207. stpeter Peter Waher: yes, I will review your proposal and the email thread after the Board meeting
  208. Kev Peter Waher: I'll try to get to it when I'm trying to clear out my XSF stuff when I get back from holiday in the new year.
  209. Peter Waher excellent, thanks :)
  210. ralphm Lance mentioned some confusement on his part regarding tables, and I have the same.
  211. Kev I think we're done for the Council meeting, then?
  212. ralphm Was it really suggested it would not be another profile of XHTML in a different XEP?
  213. stpeter Kev: yes
  214. Kev Marvellous, thanks all.
  215. Kev bangs the gavel.
  216. MattJ Thanks Kev
  217. Kev ralphm: I thought the suggestion (I've not looked at that thread in a while) was to have a discoverable feature that meant "And I also accept xhtml-im tables", and that was about it.
  218. ralphm Kev: right
  219. Lance Kev: ok, that was my take away too
  220. stpeter nods
  221. ralphm Kev: so I don't really understand why Peter Waher went for a separate thing.
  222. Kev I've not looked at it in a while, I need to catch up.
  223. Peter Waher I understood it that way
  224. Peter Waher because so many did not want to change the XHTML-IM implementation
  225. Peter Waher thinking it was too complex
  226. Peter Waher with rendering
  227. Kev I don't think it was a case of complexity, it was a case of not shoving new stuff into a Draft XEP.
  228. Kev Or, at least, that would be my complaint.
  229. ralphm IMO we could amend XHTML-IM to allow for (discoverable) extensions and then have the XHTML Basic Tables Module.
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  231. stpeter ralphm: quite possibly, yes
  232. Kev ralphm: Although XHTML-IM itself doesn't need to allow for discoverable extensions, I think, if another XEP just says "If you advertise feature X, also accept tables".
  233. ralphm Kev: the XEP forbids it currently
  234. ralphm so at least some word smithing is in order
  235. Kev Nothing is forbidden by negotiation :)
  236. Peter Waher the problem with the XHTML table module is that it is rather complex, and there was a desire to have a reduced set also
  237. Peter Waher and then there was the discussion about blacklisting vs. whitelisting which made me feel the XHTML-IM was a topic some didn't want to touch
  238. Lance the black/whitelisting issue is mainly just client implementation details we've found to occur in practice (where using only a blacklist is insecure against creative attackers). we just have to ensure that things work when only a whitelist is in use, since that's the safer route
  239. ralphm People will otherwise simply map the new stuff to HTML. Badly.
  240. stpeter Peter Waher: well, we have "profiled" the other modules (some of which are also complex), so I don't see that as a showstopper
  241. Peter Waher ok
  242. Peter Waher so, if you could revise the previous communication and then let me know in detail how you would like to see this extended, I can write an extension accordingly
  243. Peter Waher if you feel the proposal is not in accordance to what you prefer
  244. stpeter Peter Waher: yes, I will look at it in more detail here very soon
  245. Peter Waher (y)
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