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Tobias
anything on the agenda for today?
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fippo
i have "talk about deprecating the compliance suite" on my list and _think_ i poked kev about adding it to the agenda
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Tobias
okay...sounds reasonable
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Kev
You did.
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Kev
It's time.
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Kev
1)
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Kev
I'm here.
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fippo
here
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Tobias
here+
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Lance
here
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Kev
Matt sends apologies.
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Kev
2) Compliance suites.
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Kev
Should we be deprecating 270?
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fippo
i'd say yes because it requires 3920 and 3921. which are obsoleted by 6120 and 6121
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ralphm
Yes
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Lance
yes
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Tobias
yes
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Kev
ralphm: Don't you try and sneak your filthy votes in :p
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Kev
And yes, I agree.
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fippo
the more tricky question is how we replace it. we have http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0302.html (comp suites 2012)
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Kev
What about 305, or whatever the replacement was?
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Kev
302, OK :)
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fippo
302 is a better starting point at least. my feeling is that we need something along the lines of "if you're a mobile client, then you should implement..."
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Lance
yes, I'd be +1 to getting 302 active when we deprecate 270
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ralphm
Kev: heh
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Tobias
fippo, mobile client column?
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fippo
"if you're a web client then...", "if you're a jingle client..."
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fippo
tobias: more like different tables
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Tobias
if we're improving 302 we should at least change its name
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ralphm
no kidding
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Kev
I think that would be sane.
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ralphm
I'm wondering if a year is a good differentiator, but don't have a better idea
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ralphm
You'd not moving targets
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ralphm
want
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stpeter
why not remove the year?
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Kev
stpeter: Because then you have to target versions, or XEP numbers.
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fippo
well, if someone prints a flyer, they want a stable reference
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stpeter
just "XMPP Compliance Suites"
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stpeter
Kev: right, but we can reference the XEP number I think
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Kev
We could do XMPP Compliance Suite and obsolete the old one and publish a new one with the same name every time, but that seems icky somehow.
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Lance
In future, I'd say a better approach would be to make xmpp.org/extensions be able to display XEPs by use-case category
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stpeter
"XEP-0302 compliant"
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ralphm
you'd want to refer to a specific one? The document version?
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Kev
It seems to me, without much consideration, that it's not a bad thing in 2014 to say you're compliant with the 2012 compliance suite.
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stpeter
the alternative is that we commit to updating them every year :-)
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Tobias
Lance, nice idea
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stpeter
Kev: hmm, you're probaby right
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Kev
It gives people a feeling how current the document is.
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stpeter
(and then we update it whenever we think that's needed)
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Kev
I don't feel so strongly about this that I'll fight rough consensus.
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Kev
stpeter: By 'update' you mean 'publish a new year's'?
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stpeter
yes
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Kev
This seems sanest to me.
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ralphm
Does it? If something doesn't change, is it stale?
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Kev
ralphm: No, and I don't think that is implied.
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stpeter
if we decide that 2012 is out of date, we start work on a new one to supersed the old
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Tobias
Kev, and old ones get deprecated if new ones reach draft?
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ralphm
Right
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Kev
ralphm: But it gives someone in 2014 who doesn't support the 2014 profile yet a bit of a get-out as to why they still support 2012 only.
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ralphm
hm
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Zash
Perhaps drop the year and just replace the xep with a new one?
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ralphm
ok
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ralphm
I'd include the year then
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Kev
Zash: That was suggested, and I prefer keeping the year, really. I don't see a strong argument against the year, other than it might make us look inactive if we skip a year - but I don't really believe that's true, either.
- stpeter nods to Kev
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Zash
Mmm
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Kev
We're not committing to providing a new suite every year, we're committing to saying that every time we think there's a change in the baseline required for XMPP, we'll release a new one and date it.
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Lance
Kev: +1 on that statement
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ralphm
yeah
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stpeter
then we just need some text that says "this is the latest compliance suite and it will be replaced by a new one when the need arises"
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Tobias
yup...with a year it's also nicer to reference....as been said, without it you'd need to refer to the version all the time (the year would be some kind of higher version)
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Kev
stpeter: This seems entirely reasonable to me.
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ralphm
Not +1, because Kev gets confused, but I agree
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Tobias
stpeter, +1 for some text like that
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Kev
ralphm: Very kind, sir.
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fippo
'+1 as well. i dont even think we need to immediately deprecate an old suite. only when it gets obsolete for some reason (as happened to the 2010)
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Kev
fippo: Well, there's multiple states here we could use.
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Kev
And, it's a bit of a shame that we always go through Deprecated to get to Obsolete.
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Kev
Because for compliance suites we probably want to go straight to Obsolete.
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Zash
Why are they Standards Track?
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Tobias
Kev, to change that process we'd need to change some icky ascii art, right? :)
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ralphm
you don't have to imo
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Kev
There's no problem with implementing an old compliance suite, so they're not logically deprecated, but they are obsolete :)
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fippo
no. e.g. the 2012 ones would be deprecated by 2014 whereas the 2010 ones should be obsoleted
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Kev
fippo: I don't think that releasing 2014 means there's anything actively wrong with 2012, which is what deprecated means.
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ralphm
If Council decides it goes to Deprecated and immediately to Obsolete, that's fine
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Kev
Deprecated means Do Not Do This.
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fippo
kev: good point.
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Kev
Obsolete means This Is Not Relevant Any More.
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ralphm
The old one will be marked as superseded, obsolete seems proper
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ralphm
We should maybe make that explicit in the red heading
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fippo
speaking of which, didn't we discuss that heading a while back...?
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Kev
fippo: We did.
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Kev
Does everyone think we're done with compliance suites for the moment.
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Kev
?
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ralphm
yes previous council did
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Lance
If we need to, we should update XEP-1 to make this route OK. I know we've gone straight to obsolete before though, for roster versioning xep, etc
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ralphm
I don't see a reason to change XEP-0001
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Kev
A Standards Track XEP that has been advanced to a status of Final may be superseded by a future XEP approved by the XMPP Council. In such cases, the status of the earlier XEP shall be changed to Deprecated, possibly with an expiration date assigned by the XMPP Council (see the Expiration Dates section below). After a reasonable period of time or upon the passing of the expiration date, the status of the XEP shall be changed to Obsolete.
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ralphm
just vote to do two steps at once
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Kev
So if we feel that the reasonable period of time is measured in nanoseconds, we're golden.
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Lance
awesome :)
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stpeter
:)
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Tobias
:D
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ralphm
this!
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Kev
I think we're done on compliance suites. Including that we have voted to Obsolete 270?
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Lance
+1
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Tobias
+1
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fippo
'+1
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ralphm
+1
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Kev
Fabtastic.
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ralphm
(oops, did it again)
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Tobias
he did it again
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Zash
Haha
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Kev
3) Date of next. SBTSBC?
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ralphm
old habits die hard
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Lance
+1
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Tobias
wfm
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fippo
wfm too
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Kev
Jolly good.
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Kev
4) AOB?
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stpeter
did the Council vote on XEP-0152?
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stpeter
the last call ended on January 31
- stpeter notes that he needs to get the Editorial Team up and running so that things don't fall through the cracks quite as often
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Kev
Nope. I think perhaps with the new Editor team we should formalise whether they're going to keep track of LCs or Council is.
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Kev
My vote is, of course, that they track them and poke Council to vote on them.
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ralphm
Council IMO
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stpeter
Kev: I'm fine with that -- the team can request agenda items
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Kev
I note that at the summit I asked a room full of XSF members to raise their hand if they were not volunteering for the Editor team, and no-one did. So every XSF member present who isn't already on Board or Council has volunteered to join that team :)
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ralphm
hehe
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Kev
I'm not quite sure why people then started calling me Evil Kev.
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Tobias
*phew* ;)
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stpeter
Kev: we could all learn from your management style :-)
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ralphm
we had sufficient applications, I think
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Kev
ralphm: Yes, I think so.
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stpeter
ralphm: yes, I will schedule an organizational meeting next week
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Kev
I /think/ that we decided that Council would then select from that pool, but I should check.
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stpeter
that's my recollection
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stpeter
we need to get the UPnP liaison team going, too
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Kev
(I anticipate Council's selection being "You want to do it, good [man|woman|other]".
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Kev
Yes, I have a TODO to chat to you.
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stpeter
ok
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Kev
I think we've not got AOB, but we do have 152 for the agenda next week.
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stpeter
sounds good
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fippo
evil kev: does tobias get to "vote" on the resolution we made at the non-official impromptu meeting on wednesday evening?
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Kev
fippo: I think simple majority works there.
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Kev
Anyway.
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Kev
Thanks all, I think we're done.
- Kev bangs the gavel.
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ralphm
Thanks!
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Tobias
thanks
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Kev
(The informal Council vote in question was "Should Council decide to be evil?" it passed with 4/5 of Council present :))
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Tobias
4/5 votes yes, let's be evil or no?
- stpeter tries to figure out why he can log into his personal server with Gajim but not Adium
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Tobias
stpeter, just blame xnyhps :)
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ralphm
:-)
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stpeter
well, Adium would connect yesterday, but not today :-)
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Tobias
maybe an easteregg
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stpeter
I suppose I ought to join the xsf@ chatroom, eh?
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Zash
stpeter: Security feature?
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ralphm
stpeter: yes please
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ralphm
Board meeting in a few minutes
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