XMPP Council - 2016-07-13

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  76. Lance

    I'm not going to be able to be in the meeting today. Agenda item is: http://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/pars.html

  77. MattJ


  78. Dave Cridland

    Also present.

  79. SamWhited notates

  80. Tobias

    here :P

  81. MattJ

    Anyone else? or should we skip?

  82. MattJ

    Great :)

  83. Zash


  84. Tobias

    of 5 i think

  85. ralphm


  86. Zash


  87. SamWhited

    Who chairs in Lance's absence?

  88. psa


  89. MattJ

    I nominate Dave Cridland

  90. Dave Cridland

    Oh. I suppose so.

  91. Dave Cridland wonders what he's done to MattJ.

  92. Dave Cridland

    Anyone object?

  93. Dave Cridland

    If not:

  94. MattJ

    Dave Cridland, you're a born leader, it was inevitable

  95. Dave Cridland

    1) Roll Call:

  96. Tobias


  97. MattJ


  98. Dave Cridland

    MattJ, Leaders called Dave are going out of fashion.

  99. SamWhited


  100. Tobias

    Donald is en vogue now I've heard

  101. Dave Cridland

    2) I think PARS is the only thing on the agenda. Anyone have a vote?

  102. Tobias

    i'll vote on list

  103. Dave Cridland

    Tobias, We almost have May as PM, it's looking promising we'll have Hammond as Chancellor as well. Many are holding out for Clarkson as Foreign Sec.

  104. psa

    Personally I don't (yet) see the need for PARS

  105. psa

    But that would make me +0 on publication.

  106. Dave Cridland

    I don't think I have any objections either.

  107. Dave Cridland

    MattJ, ?

  108. Tobias

    Dave Cridland, sounds like a fun team to obvserve from the mainland ;)

  109. SamWhited

    Dave: I'd consider moving to the UK if that were the case; Clarkson would make an awesome Foreign Sec; no messing about, if a country annoys him, they'd get punched in the face :)

  110. ralphm

    SamWhited: +1

  111. ralphm

    Also looking forward to him testing out all gov vehicles

  112. MattJ

    +1 to PARS

  113. Dave Cridland

    SamWhited, You appreciate that Clarkson's policies would be the same as Trump's?

  114. SamWhited

    (sorry, on topic, Dave does "no objections" mean +1 or +0?)

  115. psa

    sheesh, even in the XMPP Council meeting I can't get away from politics

  116. SamWhited

    Dave Cridland: Yah, except with more common sense and less racism

  117. Dave Cridland

    SamWhited, It makes no difference, actually. We don't vote for protoxeps, we only veto (or not).

  118. SamWhited

    ah, okay, I'll just mark you as a +1 then.

  119. MattJ

    SamWhited, you'll regret asking :)

  120. Dave Cridland

    SamWhited, But I'm more 0 than +1, i think.

  121. MattJ

    SamWhited, we don't +1 proposals, we just object or don't object, for $reasons

  122. SamWhited

    👍 thanks for the clarification.

  123. MattJ

    All the same in the end

  124. SamWhited

    Cool, I've recorded "no objection" for everyone but Tobias who will review and vote on list.

  125. Tobias

    sound correct

  126. SamWhited

    (wanted to clarify since we got a bit off topic; sorry :) )

  127. Dave Cridland

    OK, AOB?

  128. Dave Cridland

    I do note that there is an outstanding pull request to XEP-0053 (Registrar). It'd benefit the Board, I think, to have views from Council members.

  129. Tobias

    is there any action need from the council

  130. Tobias

    i put in in trello on behalf of Flow

  131. Dave Cridland

    Tobias, Council is not mandated to do anything. But I'll be recommending that Board ask Council's opinion.

  132. SamWhited

    Just having opinions here on the record would be good

  133. ralphm

    What's the status of the Registrar pages?

  134. Dave Cridland

    And yes, if anyone has opinions, then that'd short-cut that process.

  135. ralphm

    (not that this is a question for Council directly)

  136. SamWhited

    (related: Can someone make a "Needs Board" label on Github or give me permission to create labels?)

  137. MattJ

    Link to the PR?

  138. SamWhited


  139. MattJ

    If I had any context on this, I don't remember

  140. MattJ


  141. ralphm

    (is not)

  142. Tobias

    i think it sounds sensible

  143. MattJ

    Ah yes

  144. MattJ

    I agree with this

  145. SamWhited

    Note that this would be work for the already behind editor team (but I'm not against it and also think it's sensible)

  146. Dave Cridland

    OK. Moving on:

  147. ralphm

    I thought somebody was working on having those pages generate again, but it's been a while since I hear about it

  148. Dave Cridland

    4) Next meeting:

  149. Dave Cridland

    Same time same place?

  150. Tobias


  151. psa


  152. Dave Cridland

    5) Ite, Meeting Est.

  153. MattJ


  154. psa

    @ralphm yes we need to get that fixed, I need to head to the airport soon but maybe I can look at it again on Friday when I'm back

  155. Dave Cridland

    Thanks all.

  156. MattJ

    Thanks Dave Cridland

  157. psa

    yep thanks!

  158. Dave Cridland

    And thanks to SamWhited for the minute-taking.

  159. SamWhited

    Date of next confirmed as 2016-07-20 15:00:00 UTC (going to start putting actual times in the minutes because I can never remember what or when sbtsbc is

  160. ralphm

    psa: there was also the question on where the source for it is now with the reshuffling of repos. I seem to remember the registrar section would need to be extracted from the old repo (preserving history)

  161. ralphm

    Kev: right?

  162. Kev

    Sorry, just sat down, how much context do I need to read?

  163. ralphm

    few lines back

  164. ralphm

    I was talking about the status of the registrar pages

  165. Kev

    I created https://github.com/xsf/registrar with all the old context in

  166. Kev

    But I don't remember if I did anything more with it.

  167. ralphm

    so it just needs something to autogen from that?

  168. Kev

    We're still suffering the aftermath of the dismal new site launch.

  169. Dave Cridland

    SamWhited, That was impressively quick, thanks.

  170. SamWhited

    Dave Cridland: Thanks; I like to take notes live, otherwise getting context afterwards is tricky, so they're already right there and ready to be sent :)

  171. Tobias

    there's also https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/192

  172. ralphm

    Kev: oh? I thought it was really smooth!

  173. Kev

    ralphm: I think how we update various things is still unclear.

  174. ralphm


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  177. Tobias

    right...i'm all for keeping the URLs working...just the question, where to keep the schema info..if we got it in a repo it's trivial to add 2 lines to the cronjob script that updates a directory with changes

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  179. SamWhited

    Let's keep the canonical version in the repo Kev made and have the website generate from that. If they're all mixed up it's just going to make updating registry entries (and keeping track of issues) harder for the editors.

  180. Tobias

    does the registrar repo include the schamata?

  181. Tobias

    psa, btw: were the schemata extracted from the XEP XML or were they independent?

  182. ralphm

    I don't think it is in that repo, and it might be better off either independent or as part of the XEP repo

  183. ralphm

    Tobias: good question

  184. SamWhited

    oh, I'm sorry, I misunderstood. I didn't realize XSLs were something different from schemas.

  185. Tobias

    i think the repo Kev created is for the registry, it includes XSL files to translate the XML to XHTML i think

  186. psa

    Tobias: yes, extracted from the XEP once it advanced to Draft or whatever

  187. psa

    XSL, XSD, whatever ;-)

  188. Tobias

    so we have hisotric versions? or why was it not always taked from the XEPs and turned into XML/HTML, ....wonder why the intermediate files were version controlled

  189. Tobias

    if it's all in the XEPs we probably won't need another repo, right?

  190. psa

    these were intended to be machine-readable

  191. SamWhited

    Oh, these are the things in the XEPs? I'm so confused. I should probably learn how XML works outside of the basic profile XMPP uses one of these days…

  192. psa

    i.e., separate files so that a validating XMPP server (not recommended, but there are some!) could ingest those files directly into its process

  193. Tobias

    psa, and the schemata in the XEP XML isn't? were there manual steps involved?

  194. Tobias


  195. psa

    how does someone (a machine) know where the schemas begin and end if they're mixed in with all that prose?

  196. SamWhited

    If this data is all in the XEPs, the XEPs are probably the source of truth, so I think where the extracted data lives is a matter of whos responsibility it is. If it's the editors responsibility to extract these from the XEPs, I'd say separate repo. If it's just a website thing and it's someone on the website teams responsibility, wherever they want (probably in the website repo)

  197. Tobias

    just want to avoid all to much duplicated work for editors or whoever...so thought it'd be possible to just take each of the blocks from http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#schemas and put it in its own XML schema file, right?

  198. Tobias

    i mean that's basically what was done with the old repo, not?

  199. Tobias

    just that the output was then version controlled

  200. psa

    But yeah at this point I don't think we probably need a separate schemas directory / repo - however, setting up redirects from the old URLs to the XEP URLs would be good

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  202. Tobias


  203. Tobias

    if someones knows how to rescue the schema folder from our old repo and put it in a github repo that would be great

  204. Tobias

    if that's done i'm happy to do the integration of registrar and schema repos in the new website

  205. Kev

    You mean extract the schema folder such that there's a new repo with all the old history of the folder, but containing only the contents of that one folder?

  206. Tobias


  207. Tobias

    the thing you did for the registry folder

  208. Kev

    Yep, no idea how to do that :)

  209. Kev

    I've not been following the conversation, but is that something that there's agreement I should be doing now?

  210. Tobias

    i don't think we'll ever see more agreement than we have right now

  211. Kev


  212. Kev

    You're Council, so I'll believe you :)

  213. SamWhited dissapeared for a moment, but if we want the history of one directory tree in a git repo you can do it with read-tree; it's fantastic.

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  215. SamWhited

    I made this issue for follow up work on proposed XEPs, please correct me if anything there is glaringly wrong or misunderstood: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/209

  216. SamWhited

    I suppose if the registries are generated straight from the XEPs we won't have to actually go through them all, the tooling can just check if they're experimental and add them to the proposed category

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  219. Kev

    So, 'schemas' as the name of the new repo?

  220. Kev

    Good - https://github.com/xsf/schemas

  221. Kev

    And the Editors have write access.

  222. SamWhited goes ahead and submits a PR for a pet peeve of his

  223. Kev goes ahead and merges

  224. SamWhited wonders if there's a high five emoji; if not, there should be

  225. Kev

    I don't *think* so.

  226. psa

    ^5 @SamWhited

  227. SamWhited

    Oh wow, I've seen people use that and thought it was some kind of odd twisty winky face :)

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  229. MattJ

  230. psa

    SamWhited: yeah, took me awhile to figure out

  231. MattJ

    Could become a new complement in code reviews...

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  244. Tobias

    Dave Cridland, seem you've got Johnson instead of Clarkson ;)

  245. SamWhited

    Do we have a general rule for what to do if an author never replies to the "Your XEP was updated, please approve" email?

  246. Tobias

    Do the have to approve?

  247. Tobias

    Do they have to approve?

  248. SamWhited

    Also, I forgot to bring this up at the meeting this morning, but this could use council approval (or disaproval) next week: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/204

  249. SamWhited

    (I think it needs council since 0045 is Draft)

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  251. Tobias

    there is also https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/184 luring around for months :)

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  254. Kev

    I think the thing to do if an author doesn't respond is to ask Council what to do.

  255. Kev

    There's nothing in our bylaws (of which I'm aware) that requires authors to approve - Council is the body that is responsible for (most) XEPs.

  256. Kev

    Just that we usually have the authors manage these things, because why wouldn't we?

  257. Tobias

    And council rolls a dice?

  258. Kev

    Presumably Council would review the change and decide whether to accept it.

  259. Tobias

    ah ok

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  262. Kev

    I imagine usually authors don't reply because either they miss the poke, or they're not interested in working on the XEP any more.

  263. Kev

    If it's that they're active and missed it, poking again is sensible. If they're not interested in working on the XEP any more and it's stable and stuff, just Council reviewing a change makes sense, if it's a XEP that needs continuing authorship, finding a new author probably makes sense.

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  265. Tobias

    right..poking definitely makes sense...just wanted to express that we shouldn't block any updates just because the original author is unresponsive

  266. Kev

    /schemas and /registry wasn't it?

  267. Kev

    Not sure.

  268. Tobias

    nearly correct https://web.archive.org/web/20141029032728/http://xmpp.org/resources/registrar/

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  282. Dave Cridland

    Tobias, I so hope that's a poor joke.

  283. Dave Cridland

    Oh, crap. It is, but it's Boris.

  284. Tobias

    yup :/

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