jcbrand: Thanks! It's nice having an editor that can take minutes on occasion again :)
jcbrand
I'm happy to help, just keep on pinging me please :)
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Tobias
3) Vote on "XEP-0060: Add pubsub#multi-items in Publish-Subscribe features #500" https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/500
Tobias
I'll vote on list
daniel
On list
SamWhited
On list
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Tobias
4) Advancing "XEP-0286: Mobile Considerations for LTE Networks"
Tobias
do we want to have the editors issue a last call?
dwd
Ooops, sorry I'm late.
Tobias
i'd be in favour
dwd
I'd be in favour of advancing XEP-0286.
SamWhited
I am obviously biased, but I think we should issue a LC and at worst I'll get feedback from it even if it doesn't advance :)
dwd
SamWhited, I'm biased too.
SamWhited
*highfive*
Tobias
daniel, any opinion on this?
daniel
No. I don't. Let's issue a last call and see what comes up
Tobias
thanks
Tobias
5) Discuss renaming "Draft" to "Stable" and make a recommendation to the board
dwd
The recommendation can be a PR to XEP-0001, incidentally. I'd note it'll mean regenerating all the XEPs, too.
SamWhited
All XEPs are regenerated twice a day or something now, so regenerating XEPs shouldn't be a problem.
Tobias
Stable/Stablish sounds quite similar to Final
SamWhited
(Just in case it wasn't clear, I was joking about "Stablish")
dwd
Tobias, In fairness, Draft *is* quite similar to Final.
SamWhited
For me anyways that's the idea. When I mention that I work on XMPP to people, the first thing I always get at meetups and the like is "Oh, we tried that, but every feature we wanted to use was just a draft"
SamWhited
So making them sound similar might help.
dwd
My problem with us discussing it is by the time we've got to Council we (should) understand what these things mean, and are no longer in the mindset of those who would benefit from a change in name.
daniel
I'm not sure what this change will actually accomplish. I have never personally had the experience SamWhited describes where someone didn't implement it because it was just a draft
daniel
But if that's a real thing than I don't have any issues with this change
Tobias
yeah...i'm not going to block this change, but other things might help more with this
dwd
I think Board might have a better chance of having a valid opinion than we do.
daniel
It's just a cosmetic thing anyway. It doesn't change any real problems we might have like not advancing xeps quickly enough and so on
SamWhited
Agreed; it is no substitute for fixing our process.
Kev
I think before doing something disruptive like this, there should be some real investigation into who it'll help, and who it'll hurt.
Tobias
maybe add a standardized table to each XEP of known implementations or such, if people see it's implemented X times, it might be more attractive even though it's calle Draft/Experimental
SamWhited
That sounds like a lot of work to keep up. Have we ever been known to keep client lists, wiki pages, etc. up to date?
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Tobias
SamWhited, IIRC there were community fplk asking on how they could help, not?
dwd
(I still think the best marketing idea I've had for XMPP is to say it has a React-like wire format instead of saying XML)
SamWhited
Tobias: Yes, but communities ask how they can help and then dissapear after two weeks and it becomes neglected again.
Tobias
also there are different issues at play here: a) having XEPs early accepted so they can be easily referenced and discussed, b) having quite stable XEPs (MUC) idle around in draft state for 10 years, c) name doesn't sound attractive
Kev
To me "Oh, we didn't use XMPP because the specs are Draft" doesn't sound particularly convincing. It might actually be true that someone read just one word in a XEP, and none of the others, but it seems a stretch.
jonasw
I’d like to throw in that Link Mauve has proposed an XML format to describe XMPP software, including XEP support
jonasw
we also already have the requirement for software we list on the website to renew yearly
Zash
Reactive Messaging and Presence Protocol?
jonasw
we can step by step increase the requirements
jonasw
and require them to list XEPs they implement
jonasw
that’d give us the nice table Tobias wants (and which I think would be amazing to have)
Tobias
jonasw, yeah but that's a different issue iI think?✎
Tobias
jonasw, yeah but that's a different issue i think? ✏
Kev
I'm opposed to opening up XEPs for marketing purposes, FWIW.
SamWhited
Yah, let's discuss one at a time unless someone has a reason these issues are related and need to be discussed together?
Tobias
SamWhited, +1
daniel
anyway let's not drift away from the topic. so regarding the recommendation on changing draft to stable I suggest "we don't have one. let the list discussion play out for a little while longer. and/or let board investige real world benefits of changing the name"
jonasw
indeed, it’s not related to the name change. but Tobias brought that table up, so I wanted to bring the thing back into mind. nevermind me.
Tobias
daniel, +1 for continuing the list discussion
SamWhited
That sounds sensible to me; let's let the board discuss and see if they can think of a way to investigate further
Tobias
jonasw, yeah...could be integrated dynamically on XEPs, like you open a XEP and can expand a table that'll show existing implementations, but yeah...something for another time
Kev
This is a marketing question, and so Council probably isn't the right place anyway (although their opinion should certainly be noted).
Tobias
naming XEP states is a marketing question?
Tobias
6) Date of next
dwd
Tobias, XEP-0001 is a Board XEP, so it's not Council.
Kev
The reason for the rename is based on the premise that XMPP is hard to market because of the name of one state, yes.
Tobias
dwd, ahh..alright
Tobias
well..same time next week?
Kev
I don't think anyone is going to claim that a XEP would be easier to implement with the name of the state changed.
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SamWhited
WFM
Tobias
7) AOB
jonasw
I’d like to throw in that there are still pending list votes from last week :-)
SamWhited
We have two outstanding things on our Trello board, ODR/OMEMO and XEP-0280. I don't know the status of either, but should we discuss them?
jonasw
(regarding the LC proposals and the two ProtoXEPs)
daniel
odr/omemo can be removed
daniel
that's a list thing
daniel
not a council thing
Tobias
There are a bunch of old probosed agenda items in Trello, which I think are all stale or at least in an unknown state. It would be great to have them updated.
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dwd
jonasw, I'm no objection on colors and jet, FWIW. I'll do the rest on list (and these two if you don't get to them)
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Tobias
alright
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Tobiasbangs the gavel
Tobias
thanks everybody
jonasw
then I’ll see that colors and jet get accepted soon-ish.
jonasw
thanks, dwd & all
Ge0rG
I think 0280 was in LC and got delayed/deferred because of the rule complexity
Ge0rG
And because of issues with <no-copy/> vs. <private/> that never quite got sorted out.
daniel
Ge0rG: the <transient/> annotation did have consensus thought, didn't it?
daniel
One marker to rule them all
daniel
*hint
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Ge0rG
daniel: I don't think so.
daniel
Mhh. it's hard to keep up when the discussion happens in three different channels
Ge0rG
My agenda was to create a set of rules that work for IM, but underway I realized that I'm not competent enough to enumerate all affected user stories and XEPs.
Tobias
daniel, indeed
Tobias
in the past it was just ML + chat room, now it's ML + chat room + PR
Ge0rG
I'm in the process of refining the problem statement, as discussed in xsf@ MUC today, in the hope to provide food for a Summit discussion.
Ge0rG
My preferred venue would be my private blog, making #4 on the list of things to follow.
jonasw
Tobias, I’m working on avoiding PR
Tobias
jonasw, ta
jonasw
i.e. directing technical discussions to the mailing list
daniel
the muc still doesn't have history, does it?
Ge0rG
Because if I write long posts to standards@, they are either ignored or individual points are picked out and get discussed at length :>
Tobias
daniel, not yet
Ge0rG
I'm not sure how often I've brought up Carbons on the ML so far.
daniel
and there is stuff on the wiki
Tobias
iteam wants dockerization but not keys in prosody docker...maybe dwd's Metre can help there
daniel
finding the right place to discuss how to route messages is even more complicated than to acutally route messages
Ge0rG
daniel: sad but true
SamWhited
Tobias: Isn't that what environment variables are for?
Tobias
SamWhited, ?
Ge0rG
I'm open for proposals, though.
Tobias
SamWhited, passing keys through envvars?
SamWhited
Tobias: For not putting secrets directly in a config file (a Dockerfile in this case)
Tobias
IIUC other iteams didn't want the prosody docker to have access to the LE private key at all, might have misunderstood them though
Kev
Yes, they can have access to the key.
Kev
Not sure how Prosody's going to work over TLS without it.
daniel
i wonder if discourse has support for patch files. if so we could run on discourse only and get rid of github and mailman
dwd
Tobias, No. Well, sort of but we shouldn't, we should be using something like an SHCM.
Kev
Just that the key should live outside the container, and be linked in via a mounted volume.
Ge0rG
daniel: and of XMPP.
Tobias
dwd, SHCM?
SamWhited
daniel: I've never been able to convince discourse to work well as a mailing list. I'm sure it's nicer to maintain or nicer if you use it as forums via the web UI, but unless you know a secret I don't it's terrible for mailing lists as far as I can tell.
SamWhited
Every few months I try to sign up for the Rust lists again (they're on discourse) and it's always a rough experience.
daniel
SamWhited, oh i don't have personal experience with it. all i can say is that mailman doesn't work at all
SamWhited
yah, mailman is pretty terrible.
daniel
because it splits threads into month and doesn't provide a search
daniel: but you can open the web view of the respective month and manually find the message there :P
SamWhited
I can't remember what it's called, but someone told me that Fastmail has a hosted mailing lists product recently. I would probably be willing to just pay for that and donate it to the XSF.
daniel
that's my workflow. search offline; and then find the mail online
jonasw
I agree with daniel that that workflow is annoying
Ge0rG
daniel: that's my workflow as well.
SamWhited
(I have no idea if it's any good or not, but their email is great so I assume their other products are too)
jonasw
but my discourse experience (also with rust) as mailing list is wrose.
Kev
My experience with discourse is that it's pretty good as long as you dedicate a good portion of every day to it, but any less than that and it's a non-starter.
Kev
(Through the web interface)
Ge0rG
the workflow is annoying, but at least you can search the ML archive locally when offline, and you don't need to interact with a horribly bloated Web 2.0 application.
jonasw
Kev, that was my feeling too when rust moved to discourse
jonasw
it is just another web forum, really
Ge0rG
IIRC somebody proposed to provide IMAP read-only access with search to our MLs.
SamWhited
It seems fine if you want forums, but not if you want mailing lists.
jonasw
agreed
Tobias
https://lists.mailman3.org/archives/list/mailman-users@mailman3.org/ this doesn't look that bad
daniel
personally i could live with not having mail access. if that's the main issue. but i understand that people like their mutt or what ever
jonasw
I need the push of email
jonasw
I don’t want to poll a website every day
jonasw
or every few hours
SamWhited
Alternative: Google Groups works well as a mailing list and is free.
SamWhited
And has a web UI.
SamWhited
Or Yahoo or whatever, I don't know the difference.
jonasw
"well"
daniel
i see. i personally prefer pull for these things. i don't like it interupting what ever else i'm working on
jonasw
LTIC I couldn’t post to a google group because google doesn’t like the network my mailserver is in.
jonasw
even though the prosody group worked fine back then
Tobias
https://lists.mailman3.org/archives/list/mailman-users@mailman3.org/thread/YWYSIBYMNRZC5KLJHNKJEYPIXKXYNEXA/ also lloks much nicer, but they decided for unreadable URLs apparently
jonasw
so maybe it’s an option
Ge0rG
mailman3 looks like a social network to me. But at least it allows permalinking to individual items.
Tobias
Ge0rG, perma but not readable
jonasw
Tobias, you can only have one, I think ;-)
daniel
maybe we can bring back google wave
Ge0rG
Tobias: apparently what you are linking to is not mm3 but HyperKitty, "a Django-based application providing a web interface to access GNU Mailman v3 archives, and interact with the lists"
daniel
i feel like that was just ahead of it's time
jonasw
Ge0rG, it is the more or less official mailman3 web interfae
SamWhited
I think it was just a marketing problem… it tried to do every damn thing and I never could figure out what the point of it was.
Tobias
jonasw, you can put both unique and human reable data in URLs
Ge0rG
daniel: I think it was created right at the end of Google's "don't be evil" and "support decentralized services" era and thus was killed quickly.
SamWhited
It was vaguely kind of cool, but I never could figure out a workflow or how I was supposed to use it.