XMPP Council - 2017-09-27

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  94. Tobias It's about time
  95. Tobias 1) Roll call
  96. Tobias daniel, SamWhited, ping
  97. SamWhited Here
  98. Tobias Link Mauve is excused, Dave just missing
  99. daniel Hi
  100. Tobias great
  101. Tobias 2) Minute taker
  102. Tobias jcbrand, are you available?
  103. jcbrand Yes I'm available
  104. Tobias perfect
  105. SamWhited jcbrand: Thanks! It's nice having an editor that can take minutes on occasion again :)
  106. jcbrand I'm happy to help, just keep on pinging me please :)
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  109. Tobias 3) Vote on "XEP-0060: Add pubsub#multi-items in Publish-Subscribe features #500" https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/500
  110. Tobias I'll vote on list
  111. daniel On list
  112. SamWhited On list
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  114. Tobias 4) Advancing "XEP-0286: Mobile Considerations for LTE Networks"
  115. Tobias do we want to have the editors issue a last call?
  116. dwd Ooops, sorry I'm late.
  117. Tobias i'd be in favour
  118. dwd I'd be in favour of advancing XEP-0286.
  119. SamWhited I am obviously biased, but I think we should issue a LC and at worst I'll get feedback from it even if it doesn't advance :)
  120. dwd SamWhited, I'm biased too.
  121. SamWhited *highfive*
  122. Tobias daniel, any opinion on this?
  123. daniel No. I don't. Let's issue a last call and see what comes up
  124. Tobias thanks
  125. Tobias 5) Discuss renaming "Draft" to "Stable" and make a recommendation to the board
  126. dwd The recommendation can be a PR to XEP-0001, incidentally. I'd note it'll mean regenerating all the XEPs, too.
  127. SamWhited All XEPs are regenerated twice a day or something now, so regenerating XEPs shouldn't be a problem.
  128. Tobias Stable/Stablish sounds quite similar to Final
  129. SamWhited (Just in case it wasn't clear, I was joking about "Stablish")
  130. dwd Tobias, In fairness, Draft *is* quite similar to Final.
  131. SamWhited For me anyways that's the idea. When I mention that I work on XMPP to people, the first thing I always get at meetups and the like is "Oh, we tried that, but every feature we wanted to use was just a draft"
  132. SamWhited So making them sound similar might help.
  133. dwd My problem with us discussing it is by the time we've got to Council we (should) understand what these things mean, and are no longer in the mindset of those who would benefit from a change in name.
  134. daniel I'm not sure what this change will actually accomplish. I have never personally had the experience SamWhited describes where someone didn't implement it because it was just a draft
  135. daniel But if that's a real thing than I don't have any issues with this change
  136. Tobias yeah...i'm not going to block this change, but other things might help more with this
  137. dwd I think Board might have a better chance of having a valid opinion than we do.
  138. daniel It's just a cosmetic thing anyway. It doesn't change any real problems we might have like not advancing xeps quickly enough and so on
  139. SamWhited Agreed; it is no substitute for fixing our process.
  140. Kev I think before doing something disruptive like this, there should be some real investigation into who it'll help, and who it'll hurt.
  141. Tobias maybe add a standardized table to each XEP of known implementations or such, if people see it's implemented X times, it might be more attractive even though it's calle Draft/Experimental
  142. SamWhited That sounds like a lot of work to keep up. Have we ever been known to keep client lists, wiki pages, etc. up to date?
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  144. Tobias SamWhited, IIRC there were community fplk asking on how they could help, not?
  145. dwd (I still think the best marketing idea I've had for XMPP is to say it has a React-like wire format instead of saying XML)
  146. SamWhited Tobias: Yes, but communities ask how they can help and then dissapear after two weeks and it becomes neglected again.
  147. Tobias also there are different issues at play here: a) having XEPs early accepted so they can be easily referenced and discussed, b) having quite stable XEPs (MUC) idle around in draft state for 10 years, c) name doesn't sound attractive
  148. Kev To me "Oh, we didn't use XMPP because the specs are Draft" doesn't sound particularly convincing. It might actually be true that someone read just one word in a XEP, and none of the others, but it seems a stretch.
  149. jonasw I’d like to throw in that Link Mauve has proposed an XML format to describe XMPP software, including XEP support
  150. jonasw we also already have the requirement for software we list on the website to renew yearly
  151. Zash Reactive Messaging and Presence Protocol?
  152. jonasw we can step by step increase the requirements
  153. jonasw and require them to list XEPs they implement
  154. jonasw that’d give us the nice table Tobias wants (and which I think would be amazing to have)
  155. Tobias jonasw, yeah but that's a different issue iI think?
  156. Tobias jonasw, yeah but that's a different issue i think?
  157. Kev I'm opposed to opening up XEPs for marketing purposes, FWIW.
  158. SamWhited Yah, let's discuss one at a time unless someone has a reason these issues are related and need to be discussed together?
  159. Tobias SamWhited, +1
  160. daniel anyway let's not drift away from the topic. so regarding the recommendation on changing draft to stable I suggest "we don't have one. let the list discussion play out for a little while longer. and/or let board investige real world benefits of changing the name"
  161. jonasw indeed, it’s not related to the name change. but Tobias brought that table up, so I wanted to bring the thing back into mind. nevermind me.
  162. Tobias daniel, +1 for continuing the list discussion
  163. SamWhited That sounds sensible to me; let's let the board discuss and see if they can think of a way to investigate further
  164. Tobias jonasw, yeah...could be integrated dynamically on XEPs, like you open a XEP and can expand a table that'll show existing implementations, but yeah...something for another time
  165. Kev This is a marketing question, and so Council probably isn't the right place anyway (although their opinion should certainly be noted).
  166. Tobias naming XEP states is a marketing question?
  167. Tobias 6) Date of next
  168. dwd Tobias, XEP-0001 is a Board XEP, so it's not Council.
  169. Kev The reason for the rename is based on the premise that XMPP is hard to market because of the name of one state, yes.
  170. Tobias dwd, ahh..alright
  171. Tobias well..same time next week?
  172. Kev I don't think anyone is going to claim that a XEP would be easier to implement with the name of the state changed.
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  174. SamWhited WFM
  175. Tobias 7) AOB
  176. jonasw I’d like to throw in that there are still pending list votes from last week :-)
  177. SamWhited We have two outstanding things on our Trello board, ODR/OMEMO and XEP-0280. I don't know the status of either, but should we discuss them?
  178. jonasw (regarding the LC proposals and the two ProtoXEPs)
  179. daniel odr/omemo can be removed
  180. daniel that's a list thing
  181. daniel not a council thing
  182. Tobias There are a bunch of old probosed agenda items in Trello, which I think are all stale or at least in an unknown state. It would be great to have them updated.
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  184. dwd jonasw, I'm no objection on colors and jet, FWIW. I'll do the rest on list (and these two if you don't get to them)
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  186. Tobias alright
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  188. Tobias bangs the gavel
  189. Tobias thanks everybody
  190. jonasw then I’ll see that colors and jet get accepted soon-ish.
  191. jonasw thanks, dwd & all
  192. Ge0rG I think 0280 was in LC and got delayed/deferred because of the rule complexity
  193. Ge0rG And because of issues with <no-copy/> vs. <private/> that never quite got sorted out.
  194. daniel Ge0rG: the <transient/> annotation did have consensus thought, didn't it?
  195. daniel One marker to rule them all
  196. daniel *hint
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  198. Ge0rG daniel: I don't think so.
  199. daniel Mhh. it's hard to keep up when the discussion happens in three different channels
  200. Ge0rG My agenda was to create a set of rules that work for IM, but underway I realized that I'm not competent enough to enumerate all affected user stories and XEPs.
  201. Tobias daniel, indeed
  202. Tobias in the past it was just ML + chat room, now it's ML + chat room + PR
  203. Ge0rG I'm in the process of refining the problem statement, as discussed in xsf@ MUC today, in the hope to provide food for a Summit discussion.
  204. Ge0rG My preferred venue would be my private blog, making #4 on the list of things to follow.
  205. jonasw Tobias, I’m working on avoiding PR
  206. Tobias jonasw, ta
  207. jonasw i.e. directing technical discussions to the mailing list
  208. daniel the muc still doesn't have history, does it?
  209. Ge0rG Because if I write long posts to standards@, they are either ignored or individual points are picked out and get discussed at length :>
  210. Tobias daniel, not yet
  211. Ge0rG I'm not sure how often I've brought up Carbons on the ML so far.
  212. daniel and there is stuff on the wiki
  213. Tobias iteam wants dockerization but not keys in prosody docker...maybe dwd's Metre can help there
  214. daniel finding the right place to discuss how to route messages is even more complicated than to acutally route messages
  215. Ge0rG daniel: sad but true
  216. SamWhited Tobias: Isn't that what environment variables are for?
  217. Tobias SamWhited, ?
  218. Ge0rG I'm open for proposals, though.
  219. Tobias SamWhited, passing keys through envvars?
  220. SamWhited Tobias: For not putting secrets directly in a config file (a Dockerfile in this case)
  221. Tobias IIUC other iteams didn't want the prosody docker to have access to the LE private key at all, might have misunderstood them though
  222. Kev Yes, they can have access to the key.
  223. Kev Not sure how Prosody's going to work over TLS without it.
  224. daniel i wonder if discourse has support for patch files. if so we could run on discourse only and get rid of github and mailman
  225. dwd Tobias, No. Well, sort of but we shouldn't, we should be using something like an SHCM.
  226. Kev Just that the key should live outside the container, and be linked in via a mounted volume.
  227. Ge0rG daniel: and of XMPP.
  228. Tobias dwd, SHCM?
  229. SamWhited daniel: I've never been able to convince discourse to work well as a mailing list. I'm sure it's nicer to maintain or nicer if you use it as forums via the web UI, but unless you know a secret I don't it's terrible for mailing lists as far as I can tell.
  230. SamWhited Every few months I try to sign up for the Rust lists again (they're on discourse) and it's always a rough experience.
  231. daniel SamWhited, oh i don't have personal experience with it. all i can say is that mailman doesn't work at all
  232. SamWhited yah, mailman is pretty terrible.
  233. daniel because it splits threads into month and doesn't provide a search
  234. jonasw maybe mailman2 is a compromise?
  235. jonasw I heard it has a flashy web interface
  236. Ge0rG daniel: you can search your offline copy ;)
  237. daniel yes i can. but than i cant link to it
  238. daniel yes i can. but then i cant link to it
  239. Ge0rG daniel: but you can open the web view of the respective month and manually find the message there :P
  240. SamWhited I can't remember what it's called, but someone told me that Fastmail has a hosted mailing lists product recently. I would probably be willing to just pay for that and donate it to the XSF.
  241. daniel that's my workflow. search offline; and then find the mail online
  242. jonasw I agree with daniel that that workflow is annoying
  243. Ge0rG daniel: that's my workflow as well.
  244. SamWhited (I have no idea if it's any good or not, but their email is great so I assume their other products are too)
  245. jonasw but my discourse experience (also with rust) as mailing list is wrose.
  246. Kev My experience with discourse is that it's pretty good as long as you dedicate a good portion of every day to it, but any less than that and it's a non-starter.
  247. Kev (Through the web interface)
  248. Ge0rG the workflow is annoying, but at least you can search the ML archive locally when offline, and you don't need to interact with a horribly bloated Web 2.0 application.
  249. jonasw Kev, that was my feeling too when rust moved to discourse
  250. jonasw it is just another web forum, really
  251. Ge0rG IIRC somebody proposed to provide IMAP read-only access with search to our MLs.
  252. SamWhited It seems fine if you want forums, but not if you want mailing lists.
  253. jonasw agreed
  254. Tobias https://lists.mailman3.org/archives/list/mailman-users@mailman3.org/ this doesn't look that bad
  255. daniel personally i could live with not having mail access. if that's the main issue. but i understand that people like their mutt or what ever
  256. jonasw I need the push of email
  257. jonasw I don’t want to poll a website every day
  258. jonasw or every few hours
  259. SamWhited Alternative: Google Groups works well as a mailing list and is free.
  260. SamWhited And has a web UI.
  261. SamWhited Or Yahoo or whatever, I don't know the difference.
  262. jonasw "well"
  263. daniel i see. i personally prefer pull for these things. i don't like it interupting what ever else i'm working on
  264. jonasw LTIC I couldn’t post to a google group because google doesn’t like the network my mailserver is in.
  265. jonasw even though the prosody group worked fine back then
  266. Tobias https://lists.mailman3.org/archives/list/mailman-users@mailman3.org/thread/YWYSIBYMNRZC5KLJHNKJEYPIXKXYNEXA/ also lloks much nicer, but they decided for unreadable URLs apparently
  267. jonasw so maybe it’s an option
  268. Ge0rG mailman3 looks like a social network to me. But at least it allows permalinking to individual items.
  269. Tobias Ge0rG, perma but not readable
  270. jonasw Tobias, you can only have one, I think ;-)
  271. daniel maybe we can bring back google wave
  272. Ge0rG Tobias: apparently what you are linking to is not mm3 but HyperKitty, "a Django-based application providing a web interface to access GNU Mailman v3 archives, and interact with the lists"
  273. daniel i feel like that was just ahead of it's time
  274. jonasw Ge0rG, it is the more or less official mailman3 web interfae
  275. SamWhited I think it was just a marketing problem… it tried to do every damn thing and I never could figure out what the point of it was.
  276. Tobias jonasw, you can put both unique and human reable data in URLs
  277. Ge0rG daniel: I think it was created right at the end of Google's "don't be evil" and "support decentralized services" era and thus was killed quickly.
  278. SamWhited It was vaguely kind of cool, but I never could figure out a workflow or how I was supposed to use it.
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  303. SamWhited > Drafts XEP on Spam prevention:
  304. SamWhited *lists only deferred XEPs*
  305. SamWhited https://blog.process-one.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Fighting-XMPP-messaging-spam-thanks-to-ejabberd-API.pdf
  306. SamWhited This is why "Draft" status is confusing.
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