XMPP Council - 2017-10-25

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  103. Tobias Hi daniel, dwd, Link Mauve, SamWhited. It's about time
  104. Tobias 1) Roll call
  105. SamWhited Here
  106. daniel Here
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  109. dwd Whoops. Here.
  110. Tobias 2) Minute taker
  111. Tobias any volunteers?
  112. jcbrand has joined
  113. Tobias jcbrand, maybe you? :)
  114. jcbrand Tobias: I'd be happy to :)
  115. Tobias great
  116. SamWhited Thanks!
  117. Tobias 3) Obsoleting XHTML-IM
  118. Tobias Where are we on this topic?
  119. dwd I think discussing has stalled.
  120. dwd I think discussion has stalled.
  121. Tobias last message 6 days ago, yes
  122. Tobias pretty much cross read everything
  123. SamWhited It seems like most people on list (with a few exceptions of course) were interested in a replacement, and that a large group (unsure if majority) were interested in deprecating before a replacement is ready given the history of security issues with this spec.
  124. dwd SamWhited, I largely agree; however it doesn't feel like we have consensus across the standards participants, and I'm not sure how we could get it.
  125. SamWhited I don't think we can or ever will reach a consensus and it's up to the council to make a decision taking the community feeling into account.
  126. SamWhited Anything this big is impossible to get consensus on, that's why we have a council.
  127. Tobias yeah...there are definitly reasonable opinions on wanting to keep it
  128. SamWhited It did seem to me that most were in favor of a replacement though, and that "go ahead and deprecate" or "push forward on a replacement and wait then deprecate" is the place where there was more contention
  129. SamWhited Or is that just me?
  130. dwd SamWhited, I don't think that's a bad reading. Just that the minority against deprecation were both vocal and reasonable.
  131. Tobias that's also the impression i got
  132. Tobias indeed
  133. SamWhited Cool; obviously I'm biased so I wanted to make sure I didn't misread the temperature of that thread
  134. Kev I think the conversation stalled because some people are watiing to see the alternative.
  135. dwd SamWhited, Don't get me wrong, I'd like to kill XHTML-IM with fire. All the opinion I've got from dedicated web developers is that handling user-entered XHTML is playing with fire.
  136. Kev I thought we were going to see the new spec that wasn't likely to be easy to mis-implement.
  137. SamWhited I think we should push forward with an alternative and would like to volunteer to write a proposal and start a SIG to investigate how it could be done better.
  138. dwd Kev, I've half a snippets XEP, which might address some of the needs for XHTML.
  139. SamWhited A proposal for a SIG, I mean.
  140. dwd SamWhited, I don't really want to spin off a whole SIG if we can avoid it.
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  142. SamWhited That also sounds fair, I thought that might be a good way forward but could go either way
  143. SamWhited I volunteer to email the list asking for interest and requirements gathering then :)
  144. daniel Fwiw I still have that im markdown xep on my todo list
  145. daniel I've been traveling for the last couple of weeks though and didn't get around to
  146. Tobias SamWhited, sounds great initating a mail asking for interest/requirements
  147. SamWhited My plan was to ask for formatting use cases, distill requirements and scope from that, and then see if any of the existing proposals fit or call for a new one.
  148. Tobias right, maybe markdown fills those requirements or not, we'll see
  149. SamWhited Sounds good, I'll prepare that email sometime over the next few days.
  150. Tobias SamWhited, so do we want to vote on obsoleting it now or do you withdraw your request to have it obsoleted. Just want to make sure your initial request isn't overlooked.
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  152. SamWhited I would like to request that we obsolete XHTML-IM now. As always, this will not result in everyone not supporting it overnight, it just means we don't recommend new implementations. Given its history, I think it would be irresponsible to continue to recommend it.
  153. Tobias arlight..then let's vote on it
  154. Tobias 4) Vote on Obsoleting XEP-0071: XHTML-IM
  155. SamWhited +1
  156. daniel +1
  157. dwd I think a greater match for the community would be to have a replacement for the IM case, so I'll vote -1 (noting that this is presumably a simple majority vote and therefore this is not a veto).
  158. Link Mauve Woops, sorry I didn’t see the time.
  159. Link Mauve I’m here now, let me backlog.
  160. Tobias i'm also -1 until there is an alternative experimental XEP for the IM case. XHTML-IM is currently the only way to exchange formatted messages between XMPP clients
  161. SamWhited I'd like to note that I think always requiring a replacement before we can stop recommending something is one of the faults with our process. It's always the same, and is why we have duplicate specs, old things no one implements that are just confusing, and specs with security issues still around.
  162. SamWhited Also that not recommending it does not mean no one can implement it if they just desperately want compatibility with something else that already has it.
  163. dwd SamWhited, I don't think it *is* part of our process. I just think it matches my sense of the standards list participant's preference better.
  164. SamWhited Yah, "process" might be the wrong word, "culture" maybe.
  165. Link Mauve I’m -1 on obsoleting, as the XEP fills a very much needed feature and there is no alternative currently.
  166. Tobias SamWhited, what do you recommend people wanting formatted messages in their XMPP client and also want to interop with other clients out there right now?
  167. SamWhited And there probably won't be as long as people can use "but we already have a thing" as an excuse. Obsoleting also provides pressure to come up with a replacement.
  168. SamWhited I recommend they don't, but if they really need to then nothing stops them from implementing XHTML-IM anyways.
  169. Tobias SamWhited, that's true.
  170. SamWhited Or I recommend they join the discussion about a replacement; obsoleting also provides pressure towards coming up with a good replacement.
  171. Link Mauve SamWhited, pressure isn’t anything we need imo.
  172. Link Mauve If someone wants to take part into that SIG (even informal), they would do so without any kind of pressure from us.
  173. SamWhited And I will as I mentioned earlier, but that's not the only place where a bit of pressure is helpful.
  174. dwd Actually, I think SamWhited has convinced me to change my vote.
  175. SamWhited Convincing people to contribute is also useful, taking away "but we already have a spec that's draft" as an argument is also helpful.
  176. dwd On balance, deprecating it will at the very least break the stalemate, so I'll change my vote ot +1 to deprecate.
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  178. dwd Sorry for the confusion.
  179. SamWhited Thanks Dave, I appreciate it. Obviously I feel strongly about it
  180. Tobias XEP-0001 doesn't mention whether disapproving XEPs requires a majority vote or all council members being in agreement. But I'd assume it's majority as it's the same for the approval case
  181. SamWhited > A majority of Council members must vote +1 in order for a XEP to advance.
  182. SamWhited I assume that's advancing to any state, including obsolete
  183. Tobias right
  184. SamWhited But I'm not sure. Board question?
  185. Tobias SamWhited, according to the flow chart it would be an advancement
  186. dwd Tobias, I believe that if Council folk were allowed to veto it would be mentioned.
  187. Tobias So with 3 (+1) votes and 2 (-1) votes, we decide to change the state of XEP-0071: XHTML-IM to Obsolete
  188. Tobias 5) Date of next
  189. Tobias Same time next week
  190. Tobias ?
  191. SamWhited WFM
  192. Tobias I can't do that but happily read the mails
  193. dwd Tobias, Erm, Deprecated, surely, not Obsolete?
  194. Tobias so someone else would need to run it
  195. Tobias dwd, didn't we have the discussion once, whether to vote twice to Deprecate and then again to Obsolete it or to vote on directly Obsoleting it
  196. Tobias or am I misremembering things?
  197. daniel Wfm
  198. SamWhited I probably screwed up the terminology, I always mix them up. I could see it being either deprecated or obsolete.
  199. Link Mauve Tobias, we did, but dwd said deprecating in this discussion, not obsoleting.
  200. Link Mauve But we are totally ok with advancing twice in a same vote.
  201. Link Mauve I’m still -1 even to deprecating, it’s very much not a sensible direction imo.
  202. SamWhited Shall we just say deprecated since it should technically happen first and then we can discuss if obsoleting makes more sense next time?
  203. Tobias alright..then let's make it Deprecated
  204. Tobias i honestly don't care much as I can't see the difference between the two states
  205. Tobias 6) AOB
  206. SamWhited yah, I doubt anyone makes much of a distinction
  207. daniel I think the people who voted +1 are happy with obsolete as well
  208. daniel And it wouldn't change the minds of the -1
  209. Tobias daniel, yeah...as there's no difference between the two states
  210. Link Mauve Ah right, an AOB, about the pending votes.
  211. Link Mauve Just a reminder.
  212. SamWhited I could go either way also, so we could just say that dwd gets to decide since he's the only unvoiced opinion?
  213. Tobias right, people please vote. Sam and I did today. Someone should takes those votes into trello and move things to editor column if all votes are in
  214. Tobias dwd, do you care much whether it's Deprecated or Obsolete?
  215. dwd I think I'd be more comfortable with Deprecated ("new implementations are no longer encouraged") as compared with Obsolete ("should no longer be [...] deployed").
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  217. Tobias Alright
  218. Tobias So with 3 (+1) votes and 2 (-1) votes, we decide to change the state of XEP-0071: XHTML-IM to Deprecated
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  220. Tobias no other AOB? great
  221. SamWhited Sorry for the terminology confusion
  222. Tobias bangs the gavel
  223. Tobias thanks everybody
  224. Tobias jcbrand, thanks for writing the minutes
  225. SamWhited Thanks all; sorry for the big contentious topic, I knew that would divisive when I first sent a mail to the list about it.
  226. Kev FWIW, Final XEPs have to have a replacement before they can be Deprecated. I don't believe that's true of Draft.
  227. jcbrand You're welcome
  228. Kev And any -1 prevents a XEP from advancing.
  229. Kev No?
  230. SamWhited Kev: no, 0001 says that advancement requires a simple majority
  231. Tobias > A majority of Council members must vote +1 in order for a XEP to advance.
  232. Kev I think you're wrong.
  233. Kev Let me check.
  234. Kev Yes, the sentence before the one you quote "A XEP shall not be advanced to the next stage in the approval process so long as any Council Member continues to vote -1"
  235. Link Mauve SamWhited, it also says it requires “rough consensus” on standards@, which it is far from imo.
  236. Kev It requires a majority to be +1, with no -1s.
  237. dwd Kev, I don't think Final has to be replaced to be Deprecated. It just says that if it is replaced, it'll become Deprecated.
  238. Kev dwd: I guess you could reasonably read it that way, yes.
  239. Tobias Kev, true
  240. SamWhited I am now even more confused about the process. In that case, what are the reasons for -1s? Just that there is no other formatting XEP? What would make those concerns "addressed"? Discussion started? A SIG started? An experimental XEP submitted? Or does something have to get all the way to Final?
  241. SamWhited s/Final/Draft/
  242. Tobias SamWhited, no.for me it would be enough to have an alternative experimental XEP
  243. Tobias then we can say to people do that instead
  244. Link Mauve Yes, same for me.
  245. Link Mauve Something which could provide roughly as much interoperability as what we have currently.
  246. SamWhited So saying "don't do formatting in new implementations until something new is on the table" is not an acceptable recommendation for either of you?
  247. Link Mauve (So not BMH, for which it’s explicitly a non-goal.)
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  249. Tobias i'll reply to the minutes that it's not actually deprecated
  250. Link Mauve SamWhited, implementations do want formatting, and saying there is no way to do any kind of formatting atm is misleading at best, and harmful in general.
  251. SamWhited I disagree
  252. Link Mauve I know. :)
  253. SamWhited But anyways, I'll start gathering use cases like I said in the beginning and we can keep this on the table. Although it sounds like it will be for the next council to finish again
  254. SamWhited Given that we're so close to the end of term
  255. Link Mauve Thanks SamWhited.
  256. Tobias jcbrand, will you cc standards too?
  257. Tobias jcbrand, ta
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  260. jcbrand Tobias: I always do, however I need to send from different mail accounts since I'm subscribed with different accounts. Who could I ask to change the email address with which I'm subscribed to council@xmpp.org?
  261. Tobias Phew. Mailman admin?
  262. Tobias don't know who that is though
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  270. Link Mauve I just reported my votes and Tobias’s on the trello.
  271. Tobias ta
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