XSF logo XMPP Council - 2017-11-15

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  91. Tobias am I missing something or should there be a trello card for " Proposed XMPP Extension: Message Markup"?
  92. SamWhited I thought there was…
  93. SamWhited I wonder if I archived that one by mistake, I can't figure out how to view the archives
  94. SamWhited found it; it's not in the archives, so nevermind.
  95. Tobias got a link?
  96. SamWhited I found the archives, I mean. It's not in there
  97. mathieui Tobias, you have to go to "more > archived items"
  98. Tobias ah..
  99. mathieui (but it’s not there, as SamWhited says)
  100. SamWhited I don't see anything in the history either, maybe we just never made one.
  101. daniel has left
  102. Link Mauve I half-remember it not being here last week.
  103. SamWhited I added a card for the LCs ending today.
  104. Tobias ok
  105. Tobias seems it's about time
  106. Tobias 1) Roll call
  107. Tobias daniel, dwd, SamWhited, Link Mauve, ping
  108. Link Mauve Hi.
  109. daniel Hi
  110. SamWhited Here
  111. daniel ?
  112. Link Mauve dwd doesn’t seem to be here right now.
  113. Link Mauve Tobias,
  114. Tobias yup
  115. Tobias 2) Minute taker
  116. Tobias jcbrand, are you available?
  117. jcbrand o/
  118. jcbrand yep
  119. Tobias great
  120. Tobias So what's on our agenda today? :)
  121. dwd Here now, sorry.
  122. dwd (Had a phone call at just the wrong moment)
  123. Tobias 3) Accept the two ProtoXEP that have passed their acceptance time (Jingle Encrypted Transports + pubsub#multi-items )
  124. Tobias i guess if they passed acceptence time the remaining votes count as non-vetos, right?
  125. Link Mauve Default ±0 from everyone who didn’t vote.
  126. Link Mauve Correct.
  127. SamWhited I don't think there's anything to do with these, just throw them on the Editors trello
  128. daniel yes. although I would be +1 on both of them
  129. Link Mauve Yes.
  130. daniel if i hadn't forgotten to vote
  131. Tobias indeed.
  132. Link Mauve (I just archived BMH, fyi.)
  133. Link Mauve (It also passed its acceptance time with two -1.)
  134. Tobias i moved them to the editors coulmn
  135. Tobias i moved them to the editors column
  136. SamWhited Tobias: Do you have access to the editors trello (I think you should?) can we move cards directly there and remove the for editors column on ours?
  137. Tobias perhaps...i don't know about the magical trello powers
  138. Tobias 4) Compliance suites / MAM LC ends today ( SamWhited added this one )
  139. Tobias SamWhited, is this just a reminder or specific discussion?
  140. SamWhited I don't know, I assume if the LC is over we should vote?
  141. Tobias is it over already or does it end today?
  142. SamWhited It ends today
  143. Link Mauve It ends today.
  144. Tobias then it's probably something for next week, right?
  145. SamWhited I don't think it really matters; seems worth getting it out of the way
  146. SamWhited Unless you expect lots more discussion to suddenly happen in the next few hours
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  148. Kev I don't think it much matters, does it? I think there's agreement it needs changes before advancement.
  149. Tobias alright...one sec
  150. Kev So it's going to go through another LC and it's not like anyone's feedback's going to be ignored. If you were about to approve it before the LC was over that might be a bit different.
  151. SamWhited Define "it"?
  152. SamWhited I think the compliance suites at least are ready for a vote
  153. Kev Sorry, 313
  154. SamWhited *nods*
  155. SamWhited Kev: can you commit to doing the work 313 needs in the next LC period?
  156. Tobias SamWhited, XEP-0387 is on its way to draft, right?
  157. dwd I'm sitting here nodding, but that isn't useful - XEP-0313 needs a new version, so it seems daft to sit on it for another week just for the sake of a couple of hours.
  158. Kev Depends when the next LC period is, presumably.
  159. SamWhited Tobias: correct
  160. SamWhited Kev: What sort of a LC period would you like? I think we can be flexible :)
  161. Kev I don't think we need an LC period until the changes are in.
  162. Link Mauve dwd, I agree, we should put it back to experimental until Kev or someone else makes the requested changes.
  163. Kev ^
  164. SamWhited oh I see, I don't really care about the process, whichever
  165. Link Mauve The next LC will be called when these will be published.
  166. dwd Link Mauve, And *then* last call it again. :-)
  167. SamWhited I was just trying to convince Kev to commit to something out loud :)
  168. dwd Right.
  169. Link Mauve :D
  170. Tobias alright...then let's vote
  171. Tobias 5) Vote on moving XEP-0387 (XMPP Compliance Suites 2017) to Draft
  172. Tobias I'll vote on list
  173. SamWhited +1
  174. daniel +1
  175. Link Mauve +1
  176. SamWhited (they're "2018" now, FWIW)
  177. dwd Where are we with 114? I'm a bit lost on the outcome of that.
  178. Tobias I just compied the email subject
  179. SamWhited Oh sorry, I meant to send a mail about that. I'm pretty torn, but I decided to leave it as is and let the council vote.
  180. SamWhited We can address that in the 2019 ones (which I will start as soon as these go to draft)
  181. Link Mauve dwd, it’s still included.
  182. SamWhited It doesn't seem important enough to block them to me, but of course YMMV
  183. Link Mauve Still in core, as per the discussion on list.
  184. dwd OK.
  185. dwd +1 to advance to Draft.
  186. Tobias great
  187. Tobias 6) Vote on moving XEP-0313 (Message Archive Management) to Draft
  188. Tobias this is just for completeness
  189. Link Mauve -1, since changes are on the way.
  190. dwd -1, since change are on the way.
  191. dwd -1, since changes are on the way.
  192. Tobias -1
  193. daniel -1
  194. SamWhited I'm torn because I still think it's stupid to have MAM and Message Archiving at the same time, but it hardly matters at this point.
  195. SamWhited +0 I suppose
  196. Kev I'm of the opinion that 136 should be deprecated regardless, but that matters not.
  197. Link Mauve SamWhited, I’m going to take that to AOB.
  198. SamWhited *nods*
  199. SamWhited I do think MAM still needs some upgrades too, but we've been saying that for a long time so part of me feels like it's time to call it "good enough" and be done with it (unless of course Kev will do the updates :) )
  200. Kev The main issue as I see it is removing the config into a new XEP.
  201. dwd I'd be happy to deprecate '136 at this stage. MAM is clearly "almost Draft" at this stage, I'm fully expecting it to fly through LC next time.
  202. jonasw IIRC MattJ mentioned something about wanting to split it?
  203. Kev If I was to do that, would those -1s go away?
  204. Kev I've forgotten what I said in the thread :)
  205. Link Mauve Kev, archiving rules were also part of the complaints I’ve seen a lot.
  206. Zash I'm going to cry if you bump the namespace again
  207. Kev Zash: No reason to, I think.
  208. Link Mauve dwd, same.
  209. Kev Link Mauve: I think we should do what we did with Carbons, there. Allow wiggle-room, so we can standardise later when the Big Picture is sorted.
  210. Flow Also the empty MAM-query result is underspecified
  211. Link Mauve Kev, exactly.
  212. Link Mauve With these two changes, you would get my +1 next time.
  213. Kev (And possibly note that using the same rules for carbons and mam probably makes sense)
  214. Zash Kev: FWIW I'm forgetting the reason why the last ns bump was justified
  215. Kev Zash: It might not have been, it's always possible I've been stupid.
  216. dwd Zash, Because. I moaned at the time it wasn't needed.
  217. dwd Zash, Unless that was the last one.
  218. Tobias 7) Date of next
  219. Link Mauve As I see it now, that last namespace bump could have been avoided, sadly.
  220. Kev We live and learn.
  221. Link Mauve Tobias, there were two other cards there.
  222. Link Mauve Namely my proposal to deprecate 0084, and fixing 0048.
  223. Tobias there are tons of cards...but apparently there's AOB and at one time we said we didn't want to have meetings longer than 30 minutes
  224. Link Mauve Namely my proposals to deprecate 0084, and fixing 0048.
  225. Link Mauve Oh, go ahead then. :)
  226. Link Mauve +1W works for me.
  227. SamWhited WFM too
  228. Tobias is that the last meeting of the current council or how many meetings are left?
  229. Link Mauve One left, next week.
  230. Kev I have a quick AOB that I'd like to run up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes :)
  231. Tobias alright
  232. dwd We have a flagpole?
  233. Tobias 8) AOB
  234. dwd AOB: We should totally get a flag.
  235. SamWhited +1
  236. Link Mauve AOB (shared by a few other members): vote to deprecate 0136.
  237. Link Mauve I’m +1 on that.
  238. Tobias that probably makes sense
  239. SamWhited I am still definitely +1
  240. daniel +1
  241. dwd +1
  242. Tobias +1
  243. Tobias Any further AOB?
  244. Kev I think it might be too early to do anything standards-track with "xmpp 2", but I'm thinking it'd be good to write up an Informational XEP that overviews the issues we're trying to solve, and the directions we're thinking of taking, so we can get something written and published. Then we can update it as the mailing list discussions advance, and eventually do the standards-track work required. Does any of Council think that's a reasonable or stupid idea? I'd feel better if we had something in a XEP somewhere, even non-normatively Informational.
  245. Kev (If anyone wonders, there is precedent for doing this)
  246. SamWhited Having some sort of document (informational XEP, wiki page? Whatever.) sounds sensible to me
  247. Tobias sounds sensible to me
  248. Tobias historically XEPs have been more tolerant to disk failure than wikis
  249. dwd I think any real attempt to make a genuine "XMPP 2.0" would be a disaster.
  250. daniel mhhh i think the wiki might be a better idea. i'm afraid that external people (people who are not that involved in the community) might get a wrong idea from a XEP
  251. Link Mauve Kev, sounds like a great idea, will be more “official” than the various wiki pages or burried Ge0rG emails.
  252. daniel even if it's just an 'informal' xep
  253. Kev dwd: You know that's not really what I mean :)
  254. jonasw so let’s choose a different title
  255. jonasw "Message Routing Improvements"
  256. Link Mauve daniel, informational*
  257. Link Mauve It would be formal.
  258. Kev daniel: Informational, describing the issues we're trying to solve. I think that being formal actually *is* a good thing.
  259. jonasw I share daniels concern when we have a XEP called "XMPP 2.0"
  260. dwd daniel, My understanding is that most of the suggestions are server-side, and the server community tends to be both smaller and more observant of the standards process, so we should be safer.
  261. Kev I'm genuinely offended that you really think I'm going to author a XEP called "XMPP 2.0" for this.
  262. jonasw Kev, don’t be
  263. Link Mauve ^^
  264. jonasw I’m dehydrated
  265. Link Mauve Oh, thanks for reminding me I’m too.
  266. Tobias Any further AOB?
  267. SamWhited 0280 changes and OMEMO have been cards forever
  268. SamWhited They appear to have stalled, should we do something with them?
  269. Tobias yeah we should
  270. Tobias don't know what though
  271. jonasw OMEMO is dealt with I think?
  272. Tobias i'm not so sure about that
  273. Tobias maybe Remko knows or so
  274. dwd jonasw, Dealt with? The outcome appears to have been for the proponents of sticking with libsignal only to ignore everybody else.
  275. daniel i think 0280 changes will be superseded by our 'xmpp 2.0' attempts
  276. daniel so we can probably just dismiss that
  277. SamWhited May I close that PR and say that we're planning a document on routing rules that will hopefully make things clearer?
  278. jonasw seems reasonable
  279. daniel maybe ask georg if he is fine with that but i guess he will be
  280. Tobias you could at least ask if the initiater of the PR is fine with that
  281. Tobias what daniel said
  282. jonasw they could always reopen if they are not
  283. Link Mauve Also that it should be handled by the new non-MAM-only rules.
  284. SamWhited Sounds good
  285. Tobias regarding OMEMO we should check back with Remko and Andy i guess
  286. dwd So what happens to XEP-0280 in the meantime?
  287. Tobias probably on ML or GH
  288. daniel end the last call. let it go back to experimental
  289. Tobias what daniel said
  290. Tobias +1
  291. daniel i feel like it's too early to deprecate
  292. Link Mauve dwd, it would be useful for it to get the same treatment as 0313, as in getting the specified archiving rules removed, IIRC it was the only complaint on the mailing list, so it could then go through LC again and become draft.
  293. dwd '280 has very few rules. That was the argument against it.
  294. Tobias could we move the rest of the discussions to the ML, this meeting is alrady running for 45 minutes?
  295. Kev The weasel words were so it could go to Draft.
  296. Kev Because we're free to set concrete rules later.
  297. SamWhited Since the routing rules discussion is probably much bigger than carbons, I think Carbons is firmly in the "good enough" category and should go to draft personally. If MAM supersedes it at a later date, we could deprecate.
  298. SamWhited MAM or some other routing rule change that's incompatible, that is.
  299. dwd What SamWhited says.
  300. Kev +1kev
  301. Link Mauve I would be fine with advancing it too.
  302. daniel me too
  303. Tobias yeah..something to discuss or vote on in a different meeting
  304. Tobias bangs the gavel
  305. SamWhited I'll add a card for next week
  306. Tobias thanks everybody
  307. Tobias thanks jcbrand for taking the notes
  308. Link Mauve Is 0280 still technically in LC, despite the expiration?
  309. Link Mauve If so we could vote on it right now.
  310. Kev Link Mauve: More or less. It's been implicitly extended by Council not doing much with it, I think.
  311. Flow I'm a little bit shocked by the sudden rush to advance 280 no matter what, it has still open issues that where raised on the LC ~9 months ago
  312. Link Mauve Damn, network outage right at the wrong time…
  313. Tobias i guess with more than 9 monhts in LC, it doesn't matter if you vote now or next week
  314. Link Mauve Sure.
  315. dwd Let's pop something on the list saying we'll vote to advance next week then.
  316. daniel has left
  317. SamWhited Sent an email about 0313 not going to draft.
  318. Tobias thanks
  319. jcbrand has left
  320. SamWhited Also, apologies for being late on the markup vote. I will try to review it this week.
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  322. SamWhited Oops, I forgot that 0286 was also under LC. Moving that back to the council board for next week too.
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