XMPP Council - 2017-12-06

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  112. Kev 'tis time, 'tis time.
  113. jonasw the harpie cries
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  115. Kev 1) Bread products!
  116. jonasw I gotta leave at 1630Z, so I won’t be able to properly take minutes
  117. Kev jonasw: I can do minutes, it's ok ta.
  118. Kev Dave sends apologies. daniel, Ge0rG, SamWhited - you here?
  119. jonasw two out of those have spoken in other MUCs just a few minutes ago :)
  120. Ge0rG here
  121. SamWhited I'm here
  122. daniel hi
  123. Kev 2) 186 LC
  124. daniel has left
  125. Kev I'm +1
  126. Kev (This is a re-issue because the last one expired without Council voting)
  127. SamWhited What are we voting on?
  128. SamWhited Oops, too slow
  129. SamWhited I don't think we have to vote on this; editor will just reissue the LC
  130. SamWhited (but +1 FWIW)
  131. Ge0rG +1 for LC
  132. Kev I think that's right, as it happens.
  133. daniel +1
  134. jonasw editor will take notice that this is the councils opinion and re-issue the LC sometime tomorrow, maybe tonight (or somebody besides me does it)
  135. Kev And same for
  136. Kev 3) 352 LC
  137. Kev jonasw: More than Council's opinion, it's what xep1 says :)
  138. Kev 4) Deprecating 84
  139. jonasw Kev, we could also simply move it back to experimental, couldn’t we?
  140. Kev No, xep1 says that if there's a vote that wasn't completed, the Editors will re-issue an LC.
  141. jonasw ah okay
  142. Kev So, deprecating '84, which I think was Link Mauve's request.
  143. Kev (That's pubsub avatars, for anyone who needs to know)
  144. daniel has there been any argument on why?
  145. Ge0rG I haven't yet compared pubsub avatars to vcard avatars, so I'm impartial.
  146. jonasw IIRC, vcard works today
  147. Kev It just appeared on the Council board without an argument why.
  148. jonasw IIRC, the argument was "vcard works today"
  149. Kev Link Mauve can probably say why, though.
  150. Ge0rG jonasw: weren't there special cases where vcard doesn't work in MUCs?
  151. Kev Ge0rG: none that PEP does work in, I think.
  152. SamWhited I'd prefer to deprecate 0153. 0084 has its problems, but seems like a better more future-compatible platform, but I don't care as long as we move towards a single way to do avatars.
  153. Ge0rG 0153 is Historical already.
  154. Kev Indeed, deprecating 153 is likely not the right thing to do.
  155. SamWhited I disagree; it appears right now that we're recommending two different ways to do avatars, which seems to be the main problem here to me.
  156. Kev I'm not convinced that we should be deprecating 84. I'm -1 for the moment, but in the minutes I'll invite an argument why it should happen.
  157. Kev No, I mean that a Historical XEP doesn't need deprecating, because of its nature :)
  158. Kev (Although we can do so, certainly)
  159. Ge0rG SamWhited: which are the two? 84 and 153?
  160. SamWhited Ge0rG: Yes
  161. Ge0rG SamWhited: and where are we recommending 153?
  162. Ge0rG (and for what reasons)
  163. daniel and the other two :-)
  164. SamWhited It's got a big green block of text that says "This is draft" at the top
  165. Kev Ge0rG: We're not, but it's the de facto standard.
  166. jonasw (which I learnt the hard way which I find annoying)
  167. Kev Anyway, with one -1 in place, let's gather votes for this and move on.
  168. daniel -1
  169. Ge0rG 387 goes with 84, so it might be not smart to deprecate it.
  170. SamWhited Sounds good; I'll discuss on list if necessary.
  171. Kev SamWhited: "sounds good" is voting which way?
  172. Kev Same question for contestant number Ge0rG.
  173. Ge0rG -1 for now, until reasons for deprecation are provided
  174. SamWhited Kev: "let's move on" sounds good, I mean. On list.
  175. Kev Ta.
  176. Kev 5) Reverting 48 to 49
  177. Kev That's reverting bookmarks to iq:private instead of private pubsub.
  178. daniel is there an argument on why?
  179. SamWhited I'm not sure why this one was brought up either; is there a problem with them as they are today?
  180. Kev This isn't a voting point, because there's no vote to be made.
  181. jonasw I did
  182. Kev But let's discuss.
  183. jonasw the argument is that the change from private XML to pubsub happened in draft state, which is a major breakage of the protocol. many deployments are still on Private XML
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  185. jonasw which is indiscoverable to new developers
  186. Kev jonasw: So it's a point of process?
  187. jonasw no, also a point of usability by developers
  188. Ge0rG I think deployments are on private XML because some major XMPP server implementations lack persistent PEP.
  189. Kev I think 'indiscoverable' is pushing it a bit, when the XEP says this explicitly.
  190. jonasw so the point is, as a new developer, you see the XEP, you think "neat, PEP", implement it, and find no bookmarks
  191. Kev I think private pubsub is a better mechanism to be storing these data than iq:private, so reverting to say it should be iq:private seems wrong, and the XEP already says that existing implementations do iq:private, so implementors know that they'll want to consider at least read access to it.
  192. jonasw I agree that it is a better mechanism.
  193. Kev jonasw: Except you wouldn't, because the XEP notes that people used to do iq:private.
  194. jonasw "used to do" implies that it isn’t that way anymore
  195. jonasw and also, only read access isn’t sufficient, because there are enough clients and servers out there which still can only do private XML
  196. Ge0rG So maybe we should extend 48 with a compat behavior spec?
  197. Ge0rG 0387 does not enforce the type of backend storage.
  198. Kev I think the note that we used to recommend iq:private is sufficient, but we could add an extra sentence to say "and it's still widely used" if it'll make people feel better, and then new implementors are forewarned.
  199. Ge0rG We might add both 49 and 223 to 0387 as well
  200. Kev But I don't think that saying "you SHOULD use iq:private" instead of the better private pubsub mechanism is right.
  201. SamWhited Agreed
  202. Ge0rG Kev: in theory, you are right. In practice, implementations of private pubsub will learn about the lack of persistence, the hard way.
  203. jonasw Kev, I agree with your second part, I disagree with the precedent this change sets
  204. Ge0rG ...of private pubsub bookmarks
  205. daniel Ge0rG, more importantly the implementation you are talking about doesn't support making the node private
  206. Kev Ge0rG: I am not inclined to avoid doing the Right Thing here because one (popular!) server implementation doesn't have a feature.
  207. daniel which arguably is the bigger issue
  208. Kev Else we end up with all our XEPs saying "But instead you need to do X for Prosody".
  209. Ge0rG Kev: apparently we can not force implementations to do anything.
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  211. jonasw I gotta run, see you later
  212. Kev I don't think I've successfully forced anyone to do anything in my life :)
  213. Kev Thanks Jonas.
  214. Ge0rG I'm not arguing in favor of "you SHOULD use iq:private", merely pointing out that usage of iq:private is self-reinforcing.
  215. Kev It is, certainly.
  216. Kev But not all deployments are based on Prosody.
  217. Kev I suggest that someone proposes an additional line as I did above to 48, and we vote on that once it's done.
  218. Kev I can do that.
  219. Ge0rG Kev: please do.
  220. Kev Moving on
  221. Kev 6) Date of next.
  222. Kev I can't do next week, and I possibly can't do anything else until the new year, at this point, but will vote on list.
  223. Kev Does everyone else want to SBTSBC?
  224. SamWhited WFM
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  226. Ge0rG +1W WFM
  227. Kev daniel?
  228. daniel next week works for me
  229. Kev 7) AOB
  230. SamWhited I would like to ask that we vote on XEP-0286: Mobile Considerations for LTE Networks (or pull it in next week)
  231. SamWhited It's been sitting in the proposed agendums for a few weeks
  232. Kev I only grabbed for the Agenda today what Dave'd put on it, so I've not reviewed (and assume no-one else has) 286 and trying to vote on it now would be unhelpful.
  233. Kev So I propose I drag it to the Agenda for next week, and we look at it then.
  234. SamWhited Works for me; thanks.
  235. Kev Anything else?
  236. Kev Looks like not. Thanks all.
  237. Kev gangs the bavel
  238. SamWhited Thanks Kev
  239. Ge0rG Thanks Kev
  240. SamWhited Would anyone complain if I removed the "For Editors" column and asked people to move them straight to the editors board's TODO column? That way editors can get alerts
  241. SamWhited Everyone *should* have access to the editors board if you're already on the council one
  242. Kev I think it only affects Dave and the Editors.
  243. Kev Maybe check with him, but it seems sensible to me.
  244. SamWhited *nods* going to do it and if he doesn't like it or doesn't have access he can always unarchive it next week
  245. Ge0rG "Dave and the Editors" sounds like an awesome name for a Punk band.
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  249. moparisthebest sounds boring
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  251. moparisthebest "and then he consulted XEP-0001 for the proper procedure, dum dum dum"
  252. moparisthebest it sounds like blues in my brain
  253. Kev https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/554 - 48 patch.
  254. Ge0rG Kev: 👍
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