XMPP Council - 2018-01-10

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  325. Kev https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/client-key.html would probably benefit from renaming as well.
  326. Zash Naming things
  327. Ge0rG Like user-invite?
  328. Dave Kev, Renaming?
  329. Kev I would expect a client to submit an automatically generated name for themselves in most instances, but have the user able to rename things in the event that they have, for example, two devices with Swift for iOS on.
  330. Kev That's how these things have typically worked in my limited experience.
  331. Kev Last-used is also useful in these instances.
  332. Ge0rG Kev: oh, renaming the client name.
  333. Ge0rG It might also make sense to differentiate long-term CLIENT-KEYs from short-term ones for resumption.
  334. Ge0rG It will be very confusing if a client name is present twice, with different keys, one for 24h and another for 30d.
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  337. Ge0rG If you read the proto-XEP in an unfortunate scrolling position, §3.2 reads like "Kev Revocation"
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  339. Dave You can revoke Kev, but he has a TTL as well, as do we all.
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  358. Dave Are we sitting comfortably?
  359. Ge0rG Yes, sir!
  360. Kev Then let's begin.
  361. Dave Kev, Glad someone got that. :-)
  362. Dave 1) Role Call - Who's here?
  363. Kev I seem to be.
  364. daniel here
  365. Dave SamWhited, ?
  366. Ge0rG still here
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  368. Dave Green-ness from SamWhited but no response, so I'll assume absence for now.
  369. Dave We'll move on...
  370. Dave 2) Agenda
  371. Dave As emailed, but we have one additional ProtoXEP to consider.
  372. Kev I suggest we don't, actually.
  373. SamWhited here now, sorry about that
  374. Dave As far as I can tell from the rules, I should open that vote now, but I'm happy to defer it if we think we ought to?
  375. Kev In as much as if we want to encourage people to be voting in meeting, rather than onlist (and I think we do), slipping things into the agenda without notice is counter to that.
  376. Ge0rG Dave: you skipped the initial #2 from your agenda email.
  377. Dave Ge0rG, I'm renumbering, sorry.
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  380. Ge0rG I have no strong opinions on hurrying my and MArc's protoXEP. It wasn't even yet officially announced to the ML.
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  384. Dave Kev, If everyone's happy with that, we can push it off until next week.
  385. jonasw (it will be once the mailman passes my mail through; I sent it just now)
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  387. Dave Ge0rG, Oh, in which case it's missed this meeting, so perfect.
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  389. Kev (When I'll probably be on the road and will have to onlist anyway, unhelpfully)
  390. Dave So, moving on.
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  393. Dave 3) Did everyone have a nice Christmas?
  394. Kev So, long story...
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  400. Kev But for the sake of brevity, yes thank you.
  401. Ge0rG Yes, without further detail.
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  404. SamWhited On list.
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  406. Dave 4) ProtoXEP: PEP Avatar to vCard conversion.
  407. SamWhited ahem, I mean, "yes, thank you"
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  409. Kev https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/pep-vcard-conversion.html
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  412. Dave Kev, Thanks.
  413. Ge0rG on list
  414. Kev I've got a few quibbles with this that I'll try to send out on standards@, but nothing to block publication.
  415. SamWhited +1
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  417. Kev (+1)
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  419. daniel +1
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  421. Dave +1 from me.
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  424. Dave I read that as everyone +1, and an on list from Ge0rG.
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  426. Kev Yes.
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  430. Dave 5) Client Key Support: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/client-key.html
  431. Dave I'm obviously +1.
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  434. Kev Could do with some extra stuff, I think, mentioned earlier, but good for publication. +1
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  439. Ge0rG +1, even though we need to put some more thought into the network-interruption-during-auth issue.
  440. SamWhited +1
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  445. Dave daniel, ?
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  447. daniel on list
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  452. Dave Thanks.
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  456. Dave 6) TOTP 2FA - https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/totp-2fa.html
  457. Kev +1
  458. Ge0rG on list.
  459. daniel on list as well
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  461. Dave +1 from me too.
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  467. Kev I do think client-key needs examples of it being used.
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  472. Ge0rG Kev: examples in the XEP text?
  473. Kev Yes.
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  475. Dave Kev, Yeah, I agree. Needs examples in the I-D too.
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  477. Dave Kev, Same with TOTP.
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  484. Dave 7) Deprecate XEP-0126: Invisibility
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  486. Kev What was the background to this proposal?
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  488. Kev (I'm almost certainly +1, but just for flavour...)
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  490. Dave I'm +1 for this, we should be advising people to do invisibility via Privacy Lists anymore.
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  493. Kev Insert negation of choice.
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  496. Dave Kev, I assumed this was SamWhited's general push toward deprecating old stuff.
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  498. Dave Kev, And yes. Shouldn't be advising.
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  502. SamWhited Yah, background is that privacy lists are deprecated and there are multiple ways to do invisibility which is confusing (I had this specifically brought up at a meetup by some random people)
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  505. Kev +1
  506. SamWhited +1
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  508. Ge0rG What is the encouraged way to do invisibility?
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  511. Kev Ge0rG: With a cloak from Hogwarts.
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  513. Dave Ge0rG, XEP-0186 from memory. I may have the number wrong, but it's somewhere around there.
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  515. daniel +1
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  517. Ge0rG Kev: that can be circumvented with the Marauder's Map.
  518. SamWhited Ge0rG: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0186.html
  519. Kev https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0186.html
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  522. Dave Kev, Did I mention that Hogwart's is being closed? Or at least, the Great Hall part of it?
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  524. Dave But anyway.
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  528. Dave I see a +1 from everyone except Ge0rG.
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  530. Ge0rG I suppose this is an "on list" from me then, I don't want to rush things without skimming through both XEPs
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  541. Dave 8) Trello Tidy
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  546. Dave A few things in Trello I'm not clear about the status of:
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  550. Ge0rG BTW, who is taking notes?
  551. Dave a) There's a bunch of stuff in Pending that I think has expired and/or been voted on.
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  553. Dave Ge0rG, Yeah, nobody volunteered so I'll write something up later.
  554. Ge0rG Dave: thanks
  555. Ge0rG Are pep-vcard-conversion and "Deprecating 84" in conflict?
  556. SamWhited Yes, but even if we decide to deprecate one of the avatar formats I don't think it hurts to have the informational work around available for a while
  557. Dave In particular, I think we were bound by rules to repeat the Last Call for XEP-0387, but I don't see that as having happened.
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  559. Dave But also, people have continued commenting on the previous Last Call thread.
  560. SamWhited I am not interested in addressing feedback that came in after the last call was over. Forcing it to be restarted and never getting this out the door is starting to drive me mad. Feedback will be addressed in a future version (lots of it is very good), but not in this one unless someone else wants to take over.
  561. Ge0rG The Last-but-one Call?
  562. Dave SamWhited, I'm fine with that.
  563. Dave SamWhited, I'm just trying to figure out if we can actually vote it through at this point.
  564. Ge0rG According to my mail log, the last Last Call was going from December 7th to December 21st, and there was no feedback after December 11th.
  565. Dave Ge0rG, I can't find that Last Call announced on the mailing list, which is my problem. Was it?
  566. Dave Oh, wait, yes it was.
  567. Dave Title changed, of course.
  568. Ge0rG Dave: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-December/034019.html
  569. Dave So yes, we *can* vote on this (and I should have put it on the agenda, sorry)
  570. Ge0rG So while the discussion was under the Last-but-one Call email thread, I don't think the content should be ignored.
  571. Kev We can vote, but I don't think the feedback there has been incorporated as of yet.
  572. SamWhited It will be incorporated in the 2019 suites since it came in after the LC had ended.
  573. Kev https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-December/034019.html - that last call?
  574. Ge0rG SamWhited: are you speaking of the October LC?
  575. Dave SamWhited, No, looks like there was a Last Call open at the time.
  576. SamWhited I don't recall. I'm reasonably sure I had all feedback addressed, then the council changed before the voting was finished and now we have another LC and more feedback.
  577. Dave SamWhited, Sounds about right. Can you incorporate that feedback and we'll vote (and hopfully publish) next week?
  578. Kev I think that flow of events is correct, but the implication that the more recent feedback doesn't need addressing doesn't seem right to me.
  579. SamWhited No, I would like us to vote on the current form. We can address anything else remaining in next years.
  580. Kev That seems to be a sake of process for the sake of process.
  581. Ge0rG SamWhited: are you going to keep a list of open feedback items for next year's Compliance Suite?
  582. SamWhited I disagree, restarting the LC seems to be process for the sake of process
  583. SamWhited I just want compliance suites to actually exist in the year that is in the title.
  584. Ge0rG I don't know, without re-reading the whole thread and the XEP, which feedback is still pending and needs to be carried over into 2019.
  585. Kev I mean issuing a vote when you already know that one of Council has outstanding feedback that isn't getting addressed seems to be a redundant action.
  586. Kev If I issue a PR to address my feedback, does that make this any easier?
  587. Kev Not that I have any spare cycles.
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  589. SamWhited No, it doesn't, the point is to not go through multiple more weeks with multiple more changes which will just lead to more people having disagreements and more revisions. At some point we just have to say "this is good enough for this year". That *should* have happened before this year started, and it was on track to, then an excuse was made to continue putting it off and submit feedback late.
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  591. Kev The way I see this, me being on Council requires me to do a thorough review of it before advancement. I did that, and found stuff that needs addressing. Whether that was given during the renewed LC, or at vote time, doesn't change that. But doing it during LC gives the opportunity to address it before the vote.
  592. Dave SamWhited, Yes, we do have to decide when to say it's good enough. And it's Council that does that, via the process in XEP-0001. I don't think ignoring feedback is a solution here.
  593. Dave ANyway, we're running out of time, so I'll move on for now.
  594. Ge0rG Kev: if your feedback is not incorporated before the vote, does that imply a -1?
  595. Dave I think we'll skip to:
  596. Kev Ge0rG: Well, yes. Unless the discussion leads to my feedback being wrong-or-such.
  597. Dave 9) AOB
  598. Ge0rG Maybe we can arrange for a vote of the XEP as-is, _now_, and have Kev make the PR and Sam start a "Compliance Suite 2019" with the feedback incorporated in the next weeks?
  599. Kev No real AOB here. I'll send out a request for agenda for the Summit shortly, but nothing much for Council to do about that.
  600. Ge0rG We've had a Council re-election and holiday season block progress for some time already.
  601. daniel AOB: publish-options
  602. daniel can we vote on one of the PRs
  603. daniel preferably the latest one
  604. Dave daniel, We can; I saw these were voted on, but the vote was deferred for more feedback from the list - but I didn't see any discussion there.
  605. Ge0rG daniel: IIRC you wanted to ask for comments from the community?
  606. Ge0rG As I lack experience with pubsub and understanding of the complexities of 0060, I'd like to hear from parties implementing this and/or impacted by the change.
  607. daniel Ge0rG, i wanted to ask for comments? i already did. that was mostly ignored. so i assume people either don't care or it's 'above their heads'/the don't have an opinion on that
  608. daniel not sure how waiting longer or bumping the thread will be any help
  609. daniel at some point council will have to make a decision
  610. daniel as you can't force 'the community' to have an opinion on that
  611. Dave daniel, OK, but the vote was explicitly deferred in order to gain feedback. Hence I didn't put it on this week's agenda.
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  613. Ge0rG I don't know of PubSub implementations outside of the ones represented by xsf@ lurkers.
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  615. daniel Dave, how would you like me to gather feedback then?
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  618. Dave daniel, If you're asking for a vote in the absence of community feedback, I think I'd want to vote on-list to find the time to really study these in any case.
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  623. Dave daniel, I'm not - I wasn't in that meeting. I'm just going by the decision made in my absence. Let's vote on this next week, feedback or not.
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  625. Ge0rG Do we have council members who are working on affected implementations, besides of daniel?
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  627. Kev I think anything in AOB that's going to need Council to do reading to get context in their heads is going to result on on-list at best, so may as well be a formal item in the following meeting. But I can onlist.
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  629. Kev Ge0rG: All pubsub implementations are affected, I think. So yes.
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  633. Ge0rG Kev: it would be great to have feedback from those Council members, then. On list.
  634. daniel Dave, i'm more than fine with council members taking their time. i just want them to take that time and not prolong this for ages
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  637. SamWhited I'm all for voting on list, this meeting or next. I don't think we're going to get any community feedback on this as XEP-0060 is just too complicated and very few people understand it and even fewer have implemented it.
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  640. daniel or come up with a strategy to gather feedback from people who work with pubsub
  641. Dave daniel, It'll be on next week. That's the first of the XEP-0060 trello cards, is it?
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  644. daniel ok
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  647. Dave So:
  648. Kev If someone starts a thread, or bumps the current thread, asking for feedback, I'll give mine there. Then maybe that will encourage others to give feedback on standards@. Or maybe it won't, but it's a chance.
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  650. Dave 10) Next meeting
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  652. Dave Same time next week?
  653. Ge0rG +1W WFM
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  655. Kev I can't do next week, but enjoy yourselves without me.
  656. SamWhited WFM
  657. Dave Kev has given apologies already, anyone else?
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  664. Dave I'll take that as a no.
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  666. Dave So I think we're done.
  667. Dave 11) Ite, Meeting Est.
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  669. Dave Now I can go write the minutes.
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  672. Kev Thanks all.
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  746. SamWhited So, RE Compliance Suites: I think it is important to work to a deadline on these. The beginning of the year may be an arbitrary deadline, but if we're going to consistently issue guidelines we can't keep doing a repeat of the 2010 or 2012 ones where they end up being in experimental for 5 years (or even half of a year). This is not a normal XEP where we can never make changes again after final and once the community adopts it it's hard to change, we have another shot every year. I hope that clarifies my position a bit.
  747. SamWhited If a council member thinks that it would be harmful to issue these as guidelines, they can of course -1 but I don't think any of the problems with it are that serious.
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  752. Kev I think missing things out, or recommending the 'wrong' thing (e.g. '84 instead of '153, not doing '49/'54) can be actively harmful for interop, as we expect new implementations to use these specs as a 'what do I need to implement at the moment', which is why I care. You've noted before that it's confusing when there are multiple options on the table and people don't know which to choose. If we point people in the wrong direction for the current reality with the compliance suites, that's adding to the confusion.
  753. Kev It's not the same as having some nice feature that we could include, but don't, for things like that, in my view.
  754. jonasw I think the argument was that the compliance suites should posit how things *should* be, not how they currently are?
  755. Ge0rG Isn't it somewhere in between? What is needed for interop, and what is needed for a nice future?
  756. Kev How far ahead? The 153/84 thing isn't clear at all. '49 has been the status quo for a decade and a half, and shows no signs of changing, etc.
  757. SamWhited Then that feedback should have been sent when it was in LC
  758. Kev If we have compliance suites where implementing the suggestions means that you can't interoperate with the same features as everyone else does them, that seems deeply unhelpful unless we're very clear that it's aspirational.
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  760. Kev SamWhited: There's two things with that. 1) There has been a new LC, triggered by the change of Council, since. 2) Council's review on advancement is not the same as LC feedback from the public.
  761. SamWhited 1 is process for processes sake and I don't think ever should have happened
  762. SamWhited 2 I disagree, council should have gotten their feedback in before it came to them for a vote so that it could have been addressed
  763. Kev I wasn't Council for the previous LC, and it hasn't been voted yet. Which is one of the reasons for (1).
  764. SamWhited If there is disagreement and it's not addressed they are obviously free to -1, but we should still get feedback to the author in a timely manner instead of giving it when we -1
  765. SamWhited I don't see why your feedback would change because you are or are not council
  766. Kev Did you do the same level of review of all XEPs going through the process before you were on Council, honestly?
  767. Kev The level of review expected by Council is not the same as that expected by every other person in the community.
  768. SamWhited I suppose that's fair; if I reviewed them at all I gave the same amount, but I didn't review all of them before I was council.
  769. Kev The level of review expected by Council is not the same as that expected from every other person in the community.
  770. Kev The reason I took a break from Council, as it happens, was purely because I couldn't afford to spend the many hours every week it often takes me to be on Council.
  771. SamWhited Either way, this is about deadlines and I think we should have made the deadline and should still get these out as quickly as possible even if they're not perfect. I don't see any major problems with them as they are now (for compatibility or otherwise) so I would like to have it voted on. If it's -1ed because someone disagrees then so be it.
  772. jonasw (FWIW, this was the final argument which convinced me to issue the LC, I didn’t do that for process’ sake)
  773. Ge0rG So how can we move on from here?
  774. Kev If this had made it through previous Council, this wouldn't have come up, but as things stand, the XEP is in front of me and as Council I do have to make the vote I think is appropriate - and I do think some of the recommendations in there will add to confusion and therefore be potentially harmful.
  775. Kev I have offered to propose the changes I think are needed myself, to try to unstall this, but I can't force that.
  776. SamWhited More harmful than continuing to not have compliance suites even though we could immediately fix them in the experimental suites for next year?
  777. Kev (I really don't want to, because I'm time-poor, but I will).
  778. Kev We could immediately fix them in the suites for this year, and have them advanced, too.
  779. Kev The time to write the changes for the current text is presumably shorter than to write a new protoXEP, and we've not voted on either yet.
  780. SamWhited But that will take multiple more weeks and I think it's much more important to have compliance suites issued in a timely manner.
  781. Kev Does it need to?
  782. Kev It would be uncomfortable for me to fit submitting a patch in before next meeting, but I will if that's the only way to unstick this.
  783. jonasw FWIW, there’s no need for a new LC if changes are incorporated
  784. Kev Vote happens next Wednesday. Everyone other than me votes in meeting. I vote onlist at the start of the following week. 12 days and it's done.
  785. Kev jonasw: I know.
  786. jonasw if I’m reading XEP-0001 correctly
  787. jonasw I’m not sure that SamWhited knows.
  788. SamWhited I am aware
  789. jonasw so I don’t see how this will take weeks.
  790. jonasw update today, vote next week, 1w exactly, done.
  791. SamWhited I am just sick to death of us having to have everything be perfect and not being able to meet a simple deadline.
  792. SamWhited As soon as there are new changes there will be someone else mad about it and we'll bike shed for another month. I hope to be proven wrong on that, of course.
  793. Kev I think the only deadline is actually the Author having addressed feedback before Council votes on it ;)
  794. jonasw SamWhited, no, they won’t be asked
  795. SamWhited And that was done, then the council didn't vote for weeks and made up an excuse to put it back into LC again.
  796. jonasw well, okay, they will be asked implicitly, but I doubt that there will be much going on w.r.t. to that.
  797. Kev I think you're wrongly fixating on LC here.
  798. Kev The only thing the LC has meant is that my feedback went to list as LC feedback, rather than as justification for -1.
  799. moparisthebest as an aside I think SamWhited is right, for instance the new https://dino.im/ website advertises "compliant with the official XMPP Compliance Suites 2016." and to someone not deeply involved in XSF that looks like it's 2 years out-dated
  800. Ge0rG With the LC over, one way or another, Council are the only ones who are allowed (and required) to provide feedback now.
  801. Kev In both cases the Author's expected to address it to the satisfaction of Council.
  802. Kev Ge0rG: Well, that's not true. Anyone is allowed to provide feedback at any time.
  803. Ge0rG Kev: damn.
  804. Kev LC is a request for a specific type of feedback, at a specific time. But standards@ is not muted the rest of the time.
  805. jonasw but council does not need to issue a new LC
  806. jonasw council is free to advance a XEP in its current state, no matter which pending feedback there is
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  808. SamWhited It was addressed to the satisfaction of council as far as I understood it, then the goalposts shifted and here we are over a week into 2018 and we still only have 2016 compliance suites.
  809. Kev If it was addressed to the satisfaction of old Council, surely it would have been advanced by now?
  810. Kev But regardless, current state is, I think:
  811. SamWhited One would think. These are also the same compliance suites that should have been 2017 ones but we kept bikeshedding details until eventually I just renamed them 2018.
  812. Kev Sam wants a compliance suite 2018 to be advanced.
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  814. Kev Kev wants changes made to compliance suites 2018. Kev wants compliance suites 2018 advanced.
  815. Kev OK. So old Council failed. That can be a thing.
  816. Kev New Council are here, and there is a clear path to how to get this advanced imminently.
  817. Kev I don't currently understanding why you don't want to take it.
  818. Kev I also don't English, obviously.
  819. Kev If it's that you think the changes I'm proposing are actively wrong, I don't think that was reflected in your replies to date.
  820. SamWhited We should have voted weeks ago, we should have voted this week, etc. every time there is some excuse why we should vote later. More changes will just lead to more delays.
  821. SamWhited But I do think the feedback was good, FWIW, just not worth spending more time on until next years.
  822. Kev I don't think it was on Dave's agenda for voting this week.
  823. jonasw SamWhited, do you really think that people are actively making up excuses to sabotage the compliance suites to be published?
  824. SamWhited There has been a card on trello for months asking for a vote.
  825. jonasw SamWhited, do you really think that people are actively making up excuses to sabotage the compliance suites from being published?
  826. SamWhited jonasw: not in a malicious way, but yes
  827. Kev I get, I totally get, the frustration in this dragging on. But I'm offering an out here by doing the work needed to get this through.
  828. jonasw what is a non-malicious way of doing that?
  829. Kev And entirely not because I love doing XEP work.
  830. Kev So, separating 'how we got here' from 'where we go next', I'm not currently clear why you would rather it go to vote next week in a form it'll be rejected, rather than go to vote next week in a form I have no reason to anticipate won't be accepted.
  831. jonasw Kev, if you can summarize in two sentences what changes you want, I’ll make a PR for you.
  832. Kev jonasw: Thanks. I think at the point I've trawled my previous comments and got it down to two sentences, I may as well submit the PR, but I very much appreciate the sentiment.
  833. jonasw k
  834. SamWhited (just got pulled into an actual work meeting, sorry, maybe be unresponsive for an hour or so)
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  844. Kev https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/554 seems to be stuck in limbo, after we agreed on needing it in Council last year. I think that needs a Council vote too.
  845. Kev adds to agenda.
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  847. Ge0rG Kev: thanks
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  860. Kev I have submitted a PR that addresses my feedback, and which I will happily +1 if merged.
  861. Kev https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/569
  862. Kev From the PR message:
  863. Kev This addresses, I believe, all the issues I raised. Where I was wrong (84), or it was contentious (220), I've dropped the point. Where Sam felt it was worth watering down (needing 153, but only read-only), I've done so.
  864. Kev If other Council folks would be kind enough to review this and check if I've screwed anything up, or this would alter their +1 of the spec, please let me know early. Ideally before Sam reviews it, to make this painless for him.
  865. Kev Assuming this gets merged in time, I suggest a vote on advancement next week.
  866. Kev daniel, Ge0rG, Dave: ^
  867. Kev I will be mostly out of action between morning Friday and next meeting, so if people have things I need to address, please let me know by then.
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  869. Ge0rG Damn. Reading those diffs is really a painful excercise in following up indirections.
  870. Ge0rG We should add aliases &yes; and &no; for the #1000x codes
  871. Zash The what
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  875. Ge0rG So ✓ is "yes" and ✕ is "no", and you need to know the order of the columns from elsewhere in the document
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  877. Ge0rG Kev: so you've added 223 to the "IM / Advanced Server" profile, but not 222.
  878. Zash How was it you fetched PRs from git?
  879. SamWhited Ge0rG: if you know XML-y things I would love suggestions on how to fix that… I constantly put things in the wrong place because I couldn't remember what the number of each one was.
  880. Ge0rG Zash: `git fetch <remote> pull/25/head:<localname>`
  881. SamWhited Although, it's always UTF-8 encoded no? Maybe I just don't need to escape them… not sure why I didn't think of that before, I should try that.
  882. Ge0rG SamWhited: might be as easy as this: `<!ENTITY yes "&#10003;">`
  883. SamWhited oh, that's a good idea too…
  884. SamWhited Thanks, I'll update that in next years.
  885. Ge0rG SamWhited: great!
  886. Ge0rG SamWhited: I hope you keep track of the pending changes for 2019.
  887. Kev Kev: so you've added 223 to the "IM / Advanced Server" profile, but not 222. Yes, because 223 is needed for 48, but this might not be clear. It was already required, I just called it out.
  888. Ge0rG Kev: 48 RECOMMENDs 223, but it does not REQUIRE it.
  889. Ge0rG I still think it is good to call out support for 223, but then we should also add 222.
  890. Ge0rG Anyway, I'm okay with any subset, including the empty one, of {222, 223} be part of CS2018.
  891. Kev Ge0rG: I'm trying to keep the diff as small as possible while addressing my comments. If you really want 222 if 223 is added, I'd be inclined to remove 223, but I think what I've got there is helpful.
  892. Kev Ok, thanks. In that case, I'd go with what's there.
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  894. Kev I was pondering whether to have 223 as a client or not. I'm happy to make that change if people want.
  895. Ge0rG Kev: my feeling tells me to replace the "N/A", but then again I haven't implemented PEP yet anyway.
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  905. pep. ooi, why are the compliance suites dated by year, and not versioned? Is there a rationale somewhere?
  906. pep. I think that forces imaginary deadlines for no reason
  907. daniel pep.: so people see that this is recent and is actively being worked on
  908. daniel Come the year 2022 you have no idea whether version 3 of the compliance suite is still current or something that hasn't been worked on in years
  909. pep. I see your point, but I don't know if end-users need to know or care. I don't think they should even have to know about XMPP in the first place
  910. pep. Developers will know what version X of XEP-Y means
  911. daniel I wasn't talking about end users
  912. daniel And no developers don't know
  913. Zash Weren't compliance suites supposed to be for marketing or certification?
  914. pep. daniel, that is sad :/
  915. daniel Zash: they can if you want them to
  916. daniel I have a course you can let your employer pay for
  917. pep. But yes that makes sense for marketing etc.
  918. daniel That makes you a certified xmpp developer
  919. pep. You give them a medal? :P
  920. daniel Certificate
  921. pep. Same
  922. daniel People love certificates. HR loves certificates
  923. daniel Everyone has a masters degree these days. But a certificate will set you apart
  924. pep. I don't, and most at work here don't
  925. pep. Still I think we're doing ok
  926. pep. But yes sadly I get that's how it is
  927. moparisthebest I'm positive it's not universal at all, but I've worked with 2 devs that had masters degrees and both were the worst devs I've ever worked with 😛
  928. moparisthebest compared to the rest of the devs I work with with only bachelors degrees or no degrees
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  932. daniel But in all seriousness: most normale developers (normal as in outside the xsf) believe xmpp an unnavigateable jungle of XEPs. Telling them here are the 8 xeps you should implement if you want your product to be compatible is really useful. And has nothing to do with just marketing
  933. pep. daniel, don't get me wrong, I know compliance suites are useful
  934. daniel You can't assume that the average developer will know 400 xeps or do the research into what xeps are implemented by other clients
  935. pep. daniel, don't get me wrong, I also think compliance suites are useful
  936. pep. I would hope developers would aim for some interoperability with other clients and servers
  937. pep. If their product is out in the open
  938. moparisthebest but also used for marketing I think is good, but can also go wrong, dino.im mentions it's compliant with 2016 suites, which to everyone not in XSF makes it look 2 years behind
  939. pep. They could say "the latest compliance suite"
  940. pep. That already looks better
  941. moparisthebest but then where would it link? and it might not always be true 🙂
  942. pep. Yes people have to keep up-to-date, it's a fact
  943. pep. They can change the text if it's not true anymore, or change the link to point to the newer versoin
  944. pep. They can change the text if it's not true anymore, or change the link to point to the newer version
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  946. pep. Or they can keep "2016" if they don't care about people thinking what you said above
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  956. Kev Scrolling backwards a bit, I don't have a Masters. That makes me great, right?
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  958. Tobias No wizard hat?
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  979. Kev I had a floppy hat, which is better.
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