XMPP Council - 2018-02-07

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  129. Dave Updated https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AZ-Sna6OiRG--b-mJMKv3XXfrn3Nehm0kAtlyJvImL0/edit to match the agenda sent out, and also note a additional votes from November.
  130. jonasw Dave, are you also tracking editor actions? if so, can you mark them as done?
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  132. Dave jonasw, All of them? :-)
  133. jonasw maybe ;-)
  134. jonasw I’d have to check
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  140. jonasw sorry, since my work schedule shifted I won’t be able to take minutes anymore :/. the meetings fall in the last part of my work time and/or commute.
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  164. Ge0rG Hi?
  165. zinid you again?
  166. Ge0rG Sorry, I can go again.
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  169. Dave Afternoon all. Shall we begin?
  170. daniel sure
  171. Dave Oh, do we have anyopne to take minutes?
  172. Dave Hmmm. OK, then. I'll see what I can craft afterwards.
  173. Dave 1) Roll Call
  174. Dave Kev already sent apologies.
  175. Ge0rG .o/
  176. Dave SamWhited, ?
  177. SamWhited Sorry, having computer trouble. Here by phone.
  178. Dave OK.
  179. Dave 2) Advance XEP-0363 to Draft https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0363.html
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  181. Dave (These first four items are all Last Calls this Council issued and then forgot about until jonasw and SamWhited spotted them and reminded me, sorry!)
  182. Ge0rG I've commented on potential security issues with the quoting of HTTP headers in 363, on list.
  183. Dave Ge0rG, Is that a -1 pending this, then?
  184. Ge0rG I think that a malicious XMPP server _might_ be able to infiltrate a corporate network under some circumstances.
  185. Ge0rG Dave: I suppose so.
  186. Ge0rG Dave: I'm not very confident in my constructed case, but I'd like to have some other experts (Daniel, Sam) have a look at what I fantasized.
  187. Dave Ge0rG, OK - that's fine, by the way, and maybe it's just a case of noting the possibility in the Security Considerations. But if it's a possibility, it should be noted.
  188. Ge0rG And probably just a security note in the XEP ... what you said.
  189. SamWhited Computer issues fixed; here for real now.
  190. Dave daniel, SamWhited - Any vote for advancing XEP-0363?
  191. daniel Ge0rG, i can't say if this is actually a security issue. but i'm ok with mentioning it in the security considerations
  192. daniel +1 (not that it really matters with Ge0rGs -1)
  193. Dave daniel, Means if its fixed it'll go through.
  194. SamWhited I'm +1; I haven't seen Ge0rG's email, but if the gist is just "headers should be escaped properly" it seems like mentioning it in the security considerations is reasonable.
  195. Ge0rG daniel: I'm +1 once my concerns are addressed in the XEP, either by a short Security note or by invalidating my attack vector.
  196. Ge0rG either way, the XEP allows encoding things into HTTP headers which would be forbidden by HTTP.
  197. Dave OK. I'm on-list, FWIW, there's feedback I seem to have forgotten about so I'll review that first.
  198. Zash Ge0rG: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-November/033936.html this?
  199. Ge0rG So I think a client MUST sanitize the headers
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  201. Ge0rG Zash: yes
  202. Dave So, 3) Advance XEP-0352 to Draft
  203. Dave https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0352.html
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  205. daniel +1
  206. SamWhited +1
  207. Ge0rG I think it's useful and practical, but I really don't like the weasel-wording in §3.2
  208. Dave I'm +1, noting that Kev has unanswered feedback, so I'm fully expecting him to -1 until that's addressed.
  209. Ge0rG Did the summit provide any insight into better and unified rules for this?
  210. Dave Actually, on second thoughts, I'll do a holding -1 to avoid doubt.
  211. Dave Ge0rG, No, I don't think it did. I'm not convinced that's a bad thing.
  212. Ge0rG I think that CSI goes hand-in-hand with push and message "urgency", and that we should -1 until we have the Big Picture.
  213. SamWhited I really don't think it makes sense to specify what the server does in this case; there are some obvious ones it could do like the ones listed, but this seems very service dependent.
  214. Dave Ge0rG, There's a risk that trying to do the "right" thing ends up back with SIFT, which is a place I'd rather not go.
  215. Dave Ge0rG, So are you -1'ing this one?
  216. Ge0rG +0
  217. Dave Ge0rG, Thanks.
  218. Dave 4) Advance XEP-0234 to Draft
  219. Dave https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0234.html
  220. SamWhited +1
  221. daniel -1
  222. Dave daniel, You noted some unaddressed feedback in the Last Call, is that your reasoning?
  223. daniel yes
  224. daniel i was about to write so
  225. Dave daniel, Excellent, thanks.
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  228. Ge0rG It's a complex XEP that I haven't implemented yet (and don't intend to). I will re-read and on-list, probably with +0
  229. Dave daniel, I'll assume you'll watch that and vote +1.
  230. Dave 5) Advance XEP-0186 to Draft
  231. Dave https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0186.html
  232. Ge0rG +1, though I don't have first-hand experience with it, the XEP looks reasonable.
  233. SamWhited +1
  234. daniel +1
  235. Dave +1
  236. Dave 5) XEP-0198 handling of mismatched h value
  237. Dave https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/579
  238. daniel +1
  239. Dave Also see list discussion.
  240. SamWhited Ahh, I saw the list discussion but not the PR
  241. SamWhited +1, this seems reasonable
  242. Dave I'm -1, I think a specific stream error needs to be specified, and the behaviour probably could be SHOULD.
  243. Ge0rG I don't like the specific wording (and there is a typo in it), but I'm +1 for adding this disclaimer
  244. Dave (Which is already feedback to the list)
  245. Dave OK.
  246. Ge0rG Dave: I think your reasons for -1 are very well hidden in your mail.
  247. Dave Ge0rG, I'll spell it out more clearly, then.
  248. Ge0rG Dave: thanks
  249. Dave Ge0rG, FWIW, I decided I'd pull this onto the agenda despite thinking it needed more on the basis that it could be applied quicker.
  250. Dave Ah. I've misnumbered and that was item (6). No wonder I'm confused. So:
  251. Ge0rG Dave: do we need to vote on the exact *wording* of the change or just on its merit?
  252. Dave 7) Post Summit Discussion
  253. Dave Ge0rG, The technical content. (typos are an editorial thing). But specific error etc is something for us.
  254. Dave Anyone got any comments about the Summit? Anything we think we should act on?
  255. Ge0rG I want server operators to sign the Spam Fighting Manifesto.
  256. Ge0rG I don't think either Board or Council can make that happen.
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  258. Dave Ge0rG, I agree that's not a Council thing, though Council can make a statement about it if we want?
  259. Dave (But I can note it in the minutes, too).
  260. Ge0rG Dave: what kind of statement could I expect? The only council-relevant thing is the mention of 0157, IIUC
  261. Dave I'd also like to propose a motion that Council thanks the Summit organisers and sponsors.
  262. Ge0rG +1
  263. SamWhited That seems reasonable
  264. Ge0rG It was a very productive time, as far as I can see from my laggy remote position.
  265. Dave Ge0rG, We can make a statement about anything, really. "Oooh, that's a good idea". If we think it is.
  266. Dave daniel, Anything on thanking? (It really is a vote, and I'll conveniently ignore Kev's on-list vote since he's one of the organisers in this instance)
  267. daniel +1
  268. Dave daniel, Ta.
  269. Dave 8) AOB
  270. Dave Anyone?
  271. Dave 9) Next Meeting
  272. Dave +1W?
  273. SamWhited Let's deprecate XHTML-IM. It's on the agenda, but got skipped again, I think
  274. Ge0rG +1W WFM
  275. daniel +1w
  276. SamWhited +1w WFM
  277. Dave SamWhited, Quite. I'll put it - I promise - on next week and I'll write something to the list on this today.
  278. Dave SamWhited, Is that OK by you?
  279. SamWhited I can live with that
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  281. Dave SamWhited, Yeah, sorry. Appreciate your patience.
  282. Dave Right, thanks all.
  283. Dave 10) Ite, Meeting Est.
  284. SamWhited Thanks all
  285. Ge0rG Thanks all, thanks Dave
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  288. Dave Ge0rG, Link to your Manifesto thing for the minutes?
  289. jonasw Dave, https://gist.github.com/ge0rg/2e4accf6950821ca45f743fdf587c08e
  290. mathieui (I think it should be a proper repo and not a gist, by the way)
  291. jonasw I agree
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  295. Ge0rG mathieui: yes
  296. Ge0rG mathieui: it is not a proper repo because I wanted to get feedback from some server admins before making it public, because changing it once people have signed is a no-go
  297. Ge0rG Dave: well done notes :)
  298. Ge0rG Dave: you have qualified for keeping that job :P
  299. Dave Ge0rG, Hmmm. Doing them every week for Board actually meant I figured out what was useful. Although Laura did try to out-do me by adding colours.
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  301. Ge0rG Which reminds me to mention my impression from the summit webex that the XSF consists only of white men.
  302. pep. I don't think the XSF is the only place like that unfortunately :(
  303. pep. And I'm just adding to the white male mix
  304. SouL My impression is that the XSF consists of people that want to be part of it.
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  306. pep. SouL: just like most others entities/companies with the same issue
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  308. SouL pep., that reminds me when at the university people complained about there were no girls (or just a few) studying computer science, for example. That's why I say that :) You cannot force people into things. It's sad to not have diversity, but that's what happens.
  309. SamWhited That's part of the problem; if you want new people with different backgrounds and different ideas you have to attract them, otherwise the only people who want to be there are the same people who are already there and their friends.
  310. SamWhited It's not about forcing people into things, it's about recruiting outside of the same small circles.
  311. mathieui SouL, you can force people out of things, though
  312. SouL mathieui, completely agree.
  313. mathieui (before the 90s, IT was a really mixed domain)
  314. Ge0rG SamWhited: "people that want to be part of it" and can afford it.
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  316. SamWhited Indeed; Ge0rG++, mathieui++
  317. mathieui (also, that probably belongs in xsf@ rather than council@, at least)
  318. Zash Ge0rH, mathieuj ?
  319. Ge0rG there was an interesting (and probably very controversial) article about girls on average being more interested in "people" and boys more in "things", leading to a lower number of females in STEM fields, if no external pressure is applied.
  320. peter I spent a lot of time on hiring and recruiting at my last company, and if you want to hire people other than the kind of people you've already got, you have to put in the effort to make it happen (e.g. not hire friends of current employees, actively search for candidates, etc.). Most people don't put in that effort, with predictable results.
  321. mathieui also, the free software community is already largely a self-perpetuating cycle of nerd stereotypes, which does not help
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  323. Ge0rG hey peter!
  324. peter Hey, I'm making a rare appearance here! ;-)
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  327. Dave SouL, if the xsf only consists of people who want to be part of it, that means women and non-existent men do not, which is worrying.
  328. Dave Non white was autocorrected weirdly there...
  329. Zash People would also need to know about the XSF
  330. mathieui yea
  331. SouL Dave, indeed. I'm just explaining my (little) experience on this topic.
  332. Dave Zash, or, worse, already do and passed us by.
  333. pep. Zash: yeah I feel that's a bigger issue
  334. peter IMHO it might be easier to change this kind of thing in a company because hiring happens and a hiring manager (as I was) can push for changes. /me shrugs
  335. Zash So, Marketing, the solution to all problems?
  336. pep. Market all the things \o/
  337. Zash The thing where members have to ask to be members, and be voted on, probably produces a ton of bias.
  338. Dave Yup
  339. Dave It's the very definition of self selection
  340. Dave We might advertise that the voting in is largely a formality
  341. peter ^ understatement of the year
  342. pep. Were there ever anybody refused?
  343. peter Yes, but it's rare.
  344. jonasw 17:54:54 Ge0rG> Which reminds me to mention my impression from the summit webex that the XSF consists only of white men. only solution: someone’s gotta get an operation.
  345. pep. What's the incentive for keeping the vote in place
  346. mathieui pep., for one, to enforce the rule about the % of members of a company
  347. mathieui and to prevent some kind of other hostile takeover, I guess, too
  348. pep. You don't need a vote for that to yoy
  349. pep. do you*
  350. pep. (For the company ratio)
  351. mathieui I’m not too knowledgeable about the inner workings and implications of a foundation either
  352. Ge0rG Now official: https://github.com/ge0rg/jabber-spam-fighting-manifesto (will announce on operators@ tomorrow)
  353. mathieui Ge0rG, one question, though
  354. mathieui at jabber.fr we have around a hundred different domains
  355. mathieui how do we specify that?
  356. peter Legally, the XSF is a membership organization. We need some rules about accepting members. Those rules are defined in the Bylaws. Folks are welcome to propose a change to the bylaws.
  357. Dave pep., We've rejected two people in my time. One for refusing to give his/her real name publicly, and one for giving only his real name, claiming we all knew him, and we only knew him by the nickname he had. (That latter was Bear).
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  362. Ge0rG mathieui: "jabber.fr + 100 domains" maybe?
  363. Ge0rG mathieui: if you have a public list of the domains, link to it from the third field
  364. pep. Dave: we just need rules then, and when people apply for membership we can enforce the rules if applicable, I fail to find an argument for the vote. Maybe to prevent "hostile takeovers" as mathieui but even then..
  365. pep. Or maybe the vote could be the exception
  366. Zash In my experience, anti-takeover is usually implemented by having the board have longer, overlapping terms.
  367. Dave Zash, That would be useful for other reasons. I did wonder about explicitly trying to sort that out, but I've lacked energy to figure out a sane transition.
  368. Zash Yeah, transition rules can be tricky
  369. Flow how to overlapping terms help againsts takeovers?
  370. Zash If you wanna do a take-over, you need to hijack two meetings
  371. SouL I thought accepting people by voting was related to members choosing the Board and Council.
  372. Flow so for the overlapping period both boards have to come to mutual aggreements?
  373. Zash Hm?
  374. Zash It gives you time to figure out their evil plans, and then the members can call an extra meeting and kick the evil people out.
  375. Flow Zash, there is a period were are to boards in place, what if board A decides to do C and board B decided to not do C?
  376. Zash Or something.
  377. Dave Flow, One board, with members with overlapping terms.
  378. Zash Flow: There's one board
  379. Dave Flow, So each election is for half the board.
  380. Flow ahh, got it
  381. Zash Longer terms also allow people to do more long term planning
  382. pep. Hmm, transitions...
  383. Zash I do wonder if longer council terms would help ... with something.
  384. pep. We'd need the same format right? Maybe not longer but rolling term
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  388. peter Related to earlier discussion: https://www.w3.org/community/w3c-women/
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  390. pep. It's not just women really, it's all non-white males, but that's a start
  391. pep. But then if we make a group for them they might complain about segregation :p
  392. peter In my limited experience, this is not something to talk about but something to act on, which is what I did at my last company. I'm no longer in a hiring role, but learned some valuable lessons.
  393. pep. peter: sure. For now we can try to find a way to transition and make new members feel a bit more welcomed. (See propositions above)
  394. peter pep.: that sounds like a good start
  395. pep. This should really have been in xsf@
  396. peter likely so
  397. pep. anybody not ok about me pasting this into the other room?
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