mathieui(I think it should be a proper repo and not a gist, by the way)
Ge0rGmathieui: it is not a proper repo because I wanted to get feedback from some server admins before making it public, because changing it once people have signed is a no-go
Ge0rGDave: well done notes :)
Ge0rGDave: you have qualified for keeping that job :P
DaveGe0rG, Hmmm. Doing them every week for Board actually meant I figured out what was useful. Although Laura did try to out-do me by adding colours.
Ge0rGWhich reminds me to mention my impression from the summit webex that the XSF consists only of white men.
pep.I don't think the XSF is the only place like that unfortunately :(
pep.And I'm just adding to the white male mix
SouLMy impression is that the XSF consists of people that want to be part of it.
pep.SouL: just like most others entities/companies with the same issue
SouLpep., that reminds me when at the university people complained about there were no girls (or just a few) studying computer science, for example. That's why I say that :)
You cannot force people into things.
It's sad to not have diversity, but that's what happens.
SamWhitedThat's part of the problem; if you want new people with different backgrounds and different ideas you have to attract them, otherwise the only people who want to be there are the same people who are already there and their friends.
SamWhitedIt's not about forcing people into things, it's about recruiting outside of the same small circles.
mathieuiSouL, you can force people out of things, though
SouLmathieui, completely agree.
mathieui(before the 90s, IT was a really mixed domain)
Ge0rGSamWhited: "people that want to be part of it" and can afford it.
SamWhitedIndeed; Ge0rG++, mathieui++
mathieui(also, that probably belongs in xsf@ rather than council@, at least)
ZashGe0rH, mathieuj ?
Ge0rGthere was an interesting (and probably very controversial) article about girls on average being more interested in "people" and boys more in "things", leading to a lower number of females in STEM fields, if no external pressure is applied.
peterI spent a lot of time on hiring and recruiting at my last company, and if you want to hire people other than the kind of people you've already got, you have to put in the effort to make it happen (e.g. not hire friends of current employees, actively search for candidates, etc.). Most people don't put in that effort, with predictable results.
mathieuialso, the free software community is already largely a self-perpetuating cycle of nerd stereotypes, which does not help
peterHey, I'm making a rare appearance here! ;-)
DaveSouL, if the xsf only consists of people who want to be part of it, that means women and non-existent men do not, which is worrying.
DaveNon white was autocorrected weirdly there...
ZashPeople would also need to know about the XSF
SouLDave, indeed. I'm just explaining my (little) experience on this topic.
DaveZash, or, worse, already do and passed us by.
pep.Zash: yeah I feel that's a bigger issue
peterIMHO it might be easier to change this kind of thing in a company because hiring happens and a hiring manager (as I was) can push for changes. /me shrugs
ZashSo, Marketing, the solution to all problems?
pep.Market all the things \o/
ZashThe thing where members have to ask to be members, and be voted on, probably produces a ton of bias.
DaveIt's the very definition of self selection
DaveWe might advertise that the voting in is largely a formality
peter^ understatement of the year
pep.Were there ever anybody refused?
peterYes, but it's rare.
jonasw17:54:54 Ge0rG> Which reminds me to mention my impression from the summit webex that the XSF consists only of white men.
only solution: someone’s gotta get an operation.
pep.What's the incentive for keeping the vote in place
mathieuipep., for one, to enforce the rule about the % of members of a company
mathieuiand to prevent some kind of other hostile takeover, I guess, too
pep.You don't need a vote for that to yoy
pep.(For the company ratio)
mathieuiI’m not too knowledgeable about the inner workings and implications of a foundation either
Ge0rGNow official: https://github.com/ge0rg/jabber-spam-fighting-manifesto (will announce on operators@ tomorrow)
mathieuiGe0rG, one question, though
mathieuiat jabber.fr we have around a hundred different domains
mathieuihow do we specify that?
peterLegally, the XSF is a membership organization. We need some rules about accepting members. Those rules are defined in the Bylaws. Folks are welcome to propose a change to the bylaws.
Davepep., We've rejected two people in my time. One for refusing to give his/her real name publicly, and one for giving only his real name, claiming we all knew him, and we only knew him by the nickname he had. (That latter was Bear).
Ge0rGmathieui: "jabber.fr + 100 domains" maybe?
Ge0rGmathieui: if you have a public list of the domains, link to it from the third field
pep.Dave: we just need rules then, and when people apply for membership we can enforce the rules if applicable, I fail to find an argument for the vote. Maybe to prevent "hostile takeovers" as mathieui but even then..
pep.Or maybe the vote could be the exception
ZashIn my experience, anti-takeover is usually implemented by having the board have longer, overlapping terms.
DaveZash, That would be useful for other reasons. I did wonder about explicitly trying to sort that out, but I've lacked energy to figure out a sane transition.
ZashYeah, transition rules can be tricky
Flowhow to overlapping terms help againsts takeovers?
ZashIf you wanna do a take-over, you need to hijack two meetings
SouLI thought accepting people by voting was related to members choosing the Board and Council.
Flowso for the overlapping period both boards have to come to mutual aggreements?
ZashIt gives you time to figure out their evil plans, and then the members can call an extra meeting and kick the evil people out.
FlowZash, there is a period were are to boards in place, what if board A decides to do C and board B decided to not do C?
DaveFlow, One board, with members with overlapping terms.
ZashFlow: There's one board
DaveFlow, So each election is for half the board.
Flowahh, got it
ZashLonger terms also allow people to do more long term planning
ZashI do wonder if longer council terms would help ... with something.
pep.We'd need the same format right? Maybe not longer but rolling term
peterRelated to earlier discussion: https://www.w3.org/community/w3c-women/
pep.It's not just women really, it's all non-white males, but that's a start
pep.But then if we make a group for them they might complain about segregation :p
peterIn my limited experience, this is not something to talk about but something to act on, which is what I did at my last company. I'm no longer in a hiring role, but learned some valuable lessons.
pep.peter: sure. For now we can try to find a way to transition and make new members feel a bit more welcomed. (See propositions above)
peterpep.: that sounds like a good start
pep.This should really have been in xsf@
pep.anybody not ok about me pasting this into the other room?