XMPP Council - 2018-02-14

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  162. Dave [[ Ten minute warning Kev SamWhited daniel Ge0rG ]]
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  165. SamWhited Thank you ten
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  169. Ge0rG Is it that time again?
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  171. Dave It is indeed.
  172. Dave 1) Roll Call
  173. Dave I'm here, by the way.
  174. Ge0rG .o/
  175. daniel hi
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  177. Dave SamWhited, Kev ?
  178. SamWhited I'm here
  179. Dave Kev did say he might struggle to attend.
  180. Dave 2) Embarrassed shuffling as everyone realises it's St Valentine's Day and nobody thought to buy the Chair some nice flowers.
  181. Dave Did anyone?
  182. Dave Pfft.
  183. Ge0rG 🌹
  184. SamWhited *crickets*
  185. Dave Ge0rG, Colour me impressed.
  186. Dave 3) Deprecate XEP-0071 XHTML-IM https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0071.html
  187. Ge0rG +1
  188. SamWhited +1
  189. Ge0rG initially I was against, but I really ended up liking Styling, and I think it will cover most use cases
  190. daniel +1
  191. Dave +1, noting that this is very specifically deprecating XHTML-IM, and not banning XHTML over XMPP in any form.
  192. SamWhited It at least provides us with a good starting point; hopefully it ends up being actually adopted, but we'll see.
  193. Ge0rG Can we add Styling to the 2018 Compliance Suite now?
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  195. SamWhited *2019
  196. Dave 4) Deprecate XEP-0013 Flexible Offline Message Retrieval https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0013.html
  197. Ge0rG SCNR.
  198. SamWhited +1, while noting that people do use this to clear history, but having a whole confusing XEP for one small feature (that clients will continue to do) seems confusing.
  199. Ge0rG -1, this seems to be the only way to suppress offline messages for a MAM enabled client
  200. SamWhited So? Clients can continue to do that. If they need legacy compatibility, they will have to implement parts of deprecated XEPs, that's why it's "legacy"
  201. Ge0rG SamWhited: I'm not sure since when "offline messages" is legacy.
  202. SamWhited Since MAM became widely adopted
  203. Dave SamWhited, It's not clear this is only useful for legacy compatibility - this seems to be the only way to do something currently desirable.
  204. Ge0rG SamWhited: then MAM needs a way to suppress that legacy.
  205. daniel i mean existing implementations wont go away and it feels wrong to implement xep13 just for the purge
  206. daniel even though i was actually considering to do that for prosody
  207. Ge0rG daniel: how do you handle offline messages when MAM is used?
  208. daniel i purge
  209. Ge0rG see!
  210. SamWhited And presumably it will continue to purge even if we stop recommending that people implement this entire XEP.
  211. Ge0rG my server also recently had a meltdown because a user requested 32K of messages from MAM, of which ~32K were chat states.
  212. Dave has left
  213. SamWhited That seems like an unrelated problem
  214. Ge0rG it is.
  215. Dave Anyway, I'm -1 on deprecating this. Seems like it's needed at least in part.
  216. Ge0rG somebody should send a mail to standards@ asking for more discussion
  217. daniel im +/-0
  218. Ge0rG I also think that we need to leverage the MAM-sync / carbons / session2 thing for that
  219. SamWhited I very much disagree; we'll never move on or get an alternative if we keep recommending the existing thing.
  220. SamWhited And in the mean time it's confusing and clients have to cherry-pick parts of the XEP, which feels poor.
  221. Ge0rG SamWhited: so you think cherry-picking parts of a deprecated XEP is better?
  222. Dave SamWhited, I'm happy to say it's the old way of doing X once there's either no need to do X or if there's a more modern way.
  223. Ge0rG What Dave said.
  224. SamWhited Ge0rG: no, I think encouraging us to come up with a solution is better.
  225. SamWhited We will never get a modern way unless we deprecate the old way
  226. Ge0rG SamWhited: that doesn't depend on (not) deprecating 13.
  227. Dave SamWhited, I'd argue we'll never get a modern way unless we make a modern way.
  228. Ge0rG SamWhited: apparently the old way was good enough for the last year.
  229. SamWhited We being the people in this room? Because if we don't encourage someone else to do it, we'll just end up doing everything (eg. like styling)
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  231. Ge0rG SamWhited: "we" being the people implementing MAM clients.
  232. Dave 5) Deprecate XEP-0137 Publishing Stream Initiation Requests https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0137.html
  233. Dave +1
  234. SamWhited It's good enough except that there's a whole huge XEP attatched to it that people aren't using; by deprecating existing clients will continue to use it, new clients will hopefully find a new way.
  235. Ge0rG What is the context for 0137 - where is it used/needed?
  236. daniel whats the argument for the deprecation?
  237. Dave SamWhited, But there isn't a new way. Which means our current recommendation would be to use the old way. :-)
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  239. Dave XEP-0137 is SI-PUB, and its dependent on Session Initiation which we already deprecated.
  240. SamWhited Dave: we're going in circles, our current recommendation *is* to use the old way, I am trying to change that and encourage someone to come up with a new way.
  241. daniel +1
  242. Ge0rG +1
  243. SamWhited We have this same problem and argument on almost everything; there will *never* be a new way if we keep encouraging use of the old way. In the mean time, we don't break anything by deprecating and changing our recommendation.
  244. SamWhited Deprecation, not obsoletion.
  245. Dave Only caveat I have with XEP-0137 is that we never duplicated this in Jingle FT. But that might be because nobody cared.
  246. Dave Anyway - SamWhited - XEP-0137?
  247. SamWhited +1 from me, obviously
  248. Dave 6) Voting Reminders
  249. SamWhited But I don't understand why we think we have to have all functionality identical up front. This exact same thing happens almost every time a new replacement comes out, and it's bad policy, this is why we can never move the state of the art forward.
  250. Dave So obviously Kev hasn't voted on anything, but he's not here. Otherwise Ge0rG and XEP-0234 to Draft.
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  252. Ge0rG Dave: still working on it.
  253. Dave SamWhited, I don't think that's the case here.
  254. Dave 7) AOB
  255. SamWhited It absolutely is; it was for XHTML-IM too, it means if we don't do it it will never get done because we don't put any pressure on the community and just keep confusing old alternatives around.
  256. Dave No, we are in the process of deprecating XHTML-IM not by creating a new XEP with identical functionality, but by ensuring the basic use-cases are still possible.
  257. daniel no aob from me
  258. Ge0rG Apparently people had a problem they needed to solve (disable offline messages), and they found 0013.
  259. SamWhited We wouldn't have had to create a new XEP at all except that this argument was used, is my point. We could have encouraged the community to do it.
  260. Ge0rG I'd like to have some more discusion regarding HTTP-Upload and custom HTTP headers.
  261. daniel lol
  262. Ge0rG SamWhited: we are the community.
  263. Dave SamWhited, To put it another way, Deprecation means "No new implementations", and right now people seem to need a small chunk of XEP-0013, and no other way of doing it.
  264. Dave Ge0rG, Here?
  265. daniel Ge0rG, because we haven't been discussing this for the last five hours?
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  267. SamWhited That seems perfectly fine to me; if it's a feature that's really needed, then a new XEP or a part of MAM can be added to make it work.
  268. SamWhited We are encouraging confusion and entire 0013 implementations just for one small part.
  269. Flow Dave, isn't the jingle counterpart of xep137 xep358?
  270. Dave Ge0rG, I'm basically sticking on -1 for XEP-0363 on the basis that I'm pretty sure the Security Considerations need to mention these kinds of things.
  271. daniel also purging is actually a pretty bad way of dealing with that
  272. Ge0rG SamWhited: We are not encouraging anything at all, 0013 is just the only solution to that problem.
  273. Dave Flow, Good point.
  274. daniel i know i'm doing this myself. but it breaks stuff
  275. SamWhited We're encouraging it by having a big green "Draft" banner at the top of the XEP. That makes it our recommendation.
  276. Ge0rG indeed, purging causes race conditions.
  277. Ge0rG SamWhited: most people don't even understand what "Draft" actually means.
  278. Dave SamWhited, Right, but if it's a real problem, and this is the way we recommend solving it, I don't see a way out.
  279. daniel Ge0rG, not only that. it breaks stuff if your server annouces mam but your personal policy is set to never
  280. daniel then you purge but don't get anything from ma
  281. daniel then you purge but don't get anything from mam
  282. Ge0rG Yay.
  283. Dave SamWhited, And no, it shouldn't be up to us to create a new one. But equally, it's not up to us to try to force others to do so if people think it's good enough.
  284. SamWhited It is a real problem, because until recently if you tried to figure out how to do history with XMPP you found MAM, Archiving, and offline messages. We're now down to two, but that's not less confusing.
  285. daniel (i'm planning on annoucing the current mam policy in disco)
  286. Ge0rG daniel: on the server or on the client?
  287. SamWhited I disagree, it's absolutely on us to put pressure on and guide the community on the technical aspects of XMPP
  288. daniel the account
  289. Ge0rG daniel: could you also address (c) from https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-November/033762.html
  290. Dave SamWhited, But not by just deprecating everything we don't like.
  291. Dave SamWhited, BTW, I'd suggest reviewing XEP-0160 as well, if you're keen to get rid of offline messages.
  292. daniel Ge0rG, getting stuff into 313 is a pain in the ass though
  293. SamWhited It's not about things we don't like, it's about reducing confusion. Deprecating seems like a perfectly good way to put a bit of pressure on to move in a certain way
  294. SamWhited Dave: I have that one on my list to look into as well
  295. Dave SamWhited, Sure, but only if there's a way to move. Otherwise I don't see that as reducing confusion.
  296. Ge0rG Dave: is it too late to vote on 0234 and get that into the minutes? Or should I properly on-list my +1?
  297. Dave Ge0rG, Nah, go for it.
  298. Dave Ge0rG, You can always take on the minutes and add it yourself. ;-)
  299. Ge0rG Dave: +1 to advancing 0234
  300. SamWhited There is a way to move: if there is no longer a solution, someone needs to write a new one. That seems fine to me.
  301. daniel Ge0rG, but i think putting the current setting in a form in the account disco would address (c)
  302. Ge0rG SamWhited: people will just stick to 0013, which never was the right way to handle it anyway
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  304. Ge0rG daniel: essentially just removing the default value.
  305. Dave SamWhited, That's a way for the community as a whole to move, not for individual client developers.
  306. SamWhited Individual client developers won't drop support for 0013 overnight, you're right, and that also seems fine.
  307. SamWhited Anyways, obviously this is doing no good, I just think this argument is always used and it always bites us later.
  308. Dave SamWhited, Just as a note, assuming that all the other votes go through, we'll have deprecated 5 XEPs so far this session. We're doing pretty good on clearing cruft. If we're always using this argument, it's not been very effective.
  309. Dave So, in the closing moments:
  310. Dave 8) Next Meeting
  311. SamWhited Mostly only because I've forced the issue again with a new council, or one of us has just done the work ourselves.
  312. Dave Same time next week?
  313. Ge0rG +1W WFM
  314. SamWhited WFM
  315. daniel wfm
  316. Dave OK, then thanks all.
  317. Dave 9) It, Meeting Est
  318. Dave Ite, even.
  319. Dave Look at that - squeezed under 30 minutes.
  320. Ge0rG Damn, we forgot the 2018 Compliance Suite.
  321. SamWhited Thanks all
  322. SamWhited Ge0rG: what about them?
  323. Ge0rG Oh, wait. They are Draft already. Everything is good.
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  325. Ge0rG Sorry.
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  327. Dave Oh. We should probably deprecate any old ones that haven't been.
  328. SamWhited The last ones that were accepted were 2012 I think, and we already deprecated those last term
  329. SamWhited Unless we missed some I *think* we're good
  330. Ge0rG 0375 is retracted, 0302 is obsolete
  331. Dave Oh, good stuff.
  332. Ge0rG 0270 is obsolete too. Looks good to me
  333. SamWhited Although I'll note that people pushed to keep the 2012 ones around even though they were confusing and dated and it just looked terrible using the same argument of "there's no replacement yet". I don't remember how I convinced people that it just made us look bad to keep them, but it took longer than it should have. *grumble, grumble*
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  335. Kev Sorry, dragged into meetings so couldn't be here.
  336. Ge0rG Hi Kev
  337. Dave Kev, Did you just forget to buy me flowers?
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  340. Dave Going to take that as a yes.
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  342. Ge0rG Lol.
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  347. Dave Done some minutes.
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