XMPP Council - 2018-02-28

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  168. Kev I believe I'm now current on all Council votes.
  169. Dave Kev, In email?
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  171. Kev Yes, I owed three weeks ago, which I sent last week, and two weeks ago, which I just sent.
  172. Kev Last week had no outstanding votes.
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  297. Dave Time, gentlemen, please.
  298. Dave 1) Role Call
  299. Ge0rG .o/
  300. Dave daniel, Kev SamWhited ?
  301. daniel here
  302. SamWhited I'm here
  303. Kev I'm here.
  304. Kev At least in body, if not in mind.
  305. Ge0rG 🙋
  306. Dave 2) Extrcting chunks of XEPs
  307. Dave Actually, no.
  308. Dave 2) For fork's sake, can somebody else take the minutes?
  309. Dave (Found my agenda copy)
  310. Dave Anyone want to do the minutes?
  311. Ge0rG Alright.
  312. SamWhited While I normally would, I have a hard time focusing on minutes and paying attention, so I don't like to do it for meetings I'm participating in
  313. Dave Ta. I should try to be more forthright on the list.
  314. Dave SamWhited, Me neither.
  315. Kev I can only do it if I'm chairing, so the meeting naturally pauses when I need it to.
  316. Ge0rG Me neither, but we need a volunteer.
  317. Dave SamWhited, I tend to do them afterward then, but they're never quite the same.
  318. Dave OK.
  319. SamWhited Yah, I don't like doing it afterwards because I always end up having questions, context goes missing, etc. anyways, thanks Ge0rG
  320. Dave 3) Good Idea Extraction Kev suggested (on the list I think) that extracting good ideas from otherwise out of date XEPs might be useful, in the context of XEP-0013. I wanted to explore this idea for 5 minutes to see if this seems sensible, and figure out what our next steps might be.
  321. Kev In the context of 13 I think the new XEP becomes:
  322. Ge0rG I don't actually think that it is a good idea for the specific 0013 case.
  323. Kev 2.7 Removing All Messages The user removes all message by sending the "purge" command: Example 13. User Requests Removal of Offline Messages <iq type='set' id='purge1'> <offline xmlns='http://jabber.org/protocol/offline'> <purge/> </offline> </iq> If the requester is a JID other than an authorized resource of the user, the server MUST return a <forbidden/> error. If the requester is authorized but the node does not exist, the server MUST return a <item-not-found/> error. Otherwise, the server MUST remove all messages and inform the user: Example 14. Server Informs User of Successful Purge <iq type='result' to='romeo@montague.net/orchard' id='purge1'/>
  324. Dave So I spotted another case of this, which is that eSessions has what appears to be a perfectly reasonable full-stanza encryption definition.
  325. Kev Job done.
  326. Kev (Not quite job done, but bloody close)
  327. Ge0rG Kev: but race conditions!
  328. SamWhited In this case I don't like the idea very much and still think we just need to deprecate the whole old XEP. However, it would get rid of all the other stuff and possibly reduce confusion, so I'm not against it.
  329. Ge0rG I'm in favor of killing 13 once we have a way to properly do MAM without offline.
  330. Dave Anyone want to volunteer for the XEP-0013 case?
  331. daniel wasn't my idea of putting current mam settings in disco info rejected because people didn't like 13's purge?
  332. Ge0rG 13 is not a way to properly do it.
  333. Dave Ge0rG, Sure. But it's better than nothing, and extracting it means we can ditch the rest (I think).
  334. daniel without that i don't see how we can savefly purge anyway
  335. daniel no matter if that's actual xep13 or xep405 purge
  336. SamWhited Maybe that section could be moved into MAM as a "this XEP is deprecated, but if people are still supporting it you might want to do this to clear" note? That would continue to be useful even if a new mechanism was introduced later.
  337. Dave SamWhited, I'd rather a new XEP, to shoehorning things into MAM.
  338. Kev Something better than -13's "purge offline" is even better, naturally. Like "Disable offline until this session ends" or something.
  339. Ge0rG daniel: I haven't had time to think through the implications of your proposal yet.
  340. SamWhited It seems to only affect MAM, no? That's when you're going to need to do this workaround, so it seems worth having it in the thing you're already reading that's going to require this
  341. Ge0rG Kev: what about adding to MAM: "if a client performs a MAM query before sending initial presence, no offline messages will be sent"
  342. daniel Ge0rG, just not sending them will make them pile up though
  343. Kev Ge0rG: That works if it's "and they're purged", I think.
  344. Ge0rG daniel: on a MAM server, the offline messages queue should be merely a pointer into the archive
  345. Ge0rG MattJ had an interesting idea with maintaining per-client offline-message pointers
  346. daniel Ge0rG, should…
  347. Dave Not wishing to stop this discussion, but I'd like to bring the discussion around somewhat.
  348. Ge0rG Dave: do you have other cased for extracting goo ideas from bad XEPs?
  349. Ge0rG Dave: do you have other cases for extracting good ideas from bad XEPs?
  350. Dave In principle, if we want to deprecate a XEP which still has a single widely used task within it, is our current recommendation that we extract that useful portion into a new XEP?
  351. Dave Ge0rG, eSessions full stanza encryption?
  352. Holger Blocking non-contacts from 0016?
  353. Kev If it wasn't Draft, I'd suggest cutting the other stuff from the XEP. But I don't think that's appropriate at Draft.
  354. SamWhited Depends on the situation, I don't think we can make a general statement here
  355. Ge0rG Kev: how is forking a part of a Draft into a new XEP and deprecating the Draft better?
  356. Dave OK, I don't think we're coming to a conclusion here.
  357. Kev I don't think there's a general conclusion to come to, other than 'it's an option'.
  358. Dave Which isn't a bad thing, indeed.
  359. Dave So, moving on:
  360. Dave 4) Dusty Drafts Note thread - Sam wanted to place this on the agenda.
  361. SamWhited Can we decide what to do in this specific place before we move on?
  362. Kev My preference would be a 'good' fix, and get rid of all of 13.
  363. Ge0rG what Kev said
  364. Kev If we can't do that, just keeping that one bit of 13 alive through a new XEP would work for me.
  365. Ge0rG recycling that bit of 13 is bad.
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  367. Ge0rG it's a shortcut that's going to bite users.
  368. Dave I don't have a strong preference here, though currently we're stuck in Clausevitz's dilemma.
  369. Dave Right, I'm going to move on.
  370. Ge0rG I don't want to leave something behind where in a decade, people will have to draw complex flow-charts on a huge flipboard to understand how to correctly disable offline messaging for a MAM client
  371. SamWhited Proposal: 1. add a note to MAM saying "you might need a workaround from this XEP because some legacy systems are still doing this", 2. deprecate the old XEP, 3. wait for someone to come up with a better solution.
  372. SamWhited 4. remove the notice from MAM and depend on the new thing.
  373. Kev I'm not sure it's a case of legacy systems. Offline messages haven't been deprecated or anything.
  374. SamWhited Still doing partial 0016, I mean.
  375. Kev But other than working, that seems like a reasonable enough approach to me, I guess. Pointing to a deprecated XEP from a Draft one seems odd, but it's likely to be stable.
  376. Zash Offline messages aren't technically a spec, right?
  377. Kev *than wording
  378. daniel interestingly the request mam purges offline messages still breaks the case where the user has disabled mam for themselves. because we make a request. that request will have an empty result but offline messages will be gona anyway
  379. daniel so it doesn't really matter if you purge explictiy or implicitly
  380. Dave Really moving on, please.
  381. Dave 4) Dusty Drafts Note thread - Sam wanted to place this on the agenda.
  382. Dave So we've a bunch of Draft XEPs that haven't been touched in years.
  383. Kev I think you want each XEP as a Council agendum for CFE.
  384. SamWhited CFE?
  385. Kev Call For Experience.
  386. Kev Last Call, but for Final.
  387. Dave That'd be to move to Final. But I'd have thought many of them should be moving to Deprecated.
  388. Kev I was thinking we'd discuss CFEing each, and when we decide 'no', we'd then vote on deprecated, but whatever.
  389. Dave Oh, I can do that.
  390. Ge0rG Sounds good to me. CFE -> deprecated|final
  391. Dave If everyone's happy with that concept, we can do that next week?
  392. Kev WFM
  393. SamWhited We don't need to actually issue a CFE for some of these do we? I feel like a few of them are obvious
  394. SamWhited s/obvious/uncontroversial/
  395. Kev SamWhited: For deprecating, or going to Final?
  396. Kev We have to CFE if we're going to Final.
  397. SamWhited For deprecating
  398. Dave SamWhited, We wouldn't be CFEing any we want to deprecate.
  399. Kev No, that's what I was (trying to) say.
  400. Ge0rG So we need to decide which ones to CFE.
  401. Kev We ask "Shall we CFE?" for each one, and when Council says "No", we then say "Shall we deprecate then?" and we say "Yes".
  402. SamWhited ahh, I see, we don't actually go to CFE. Yah, that seems sensible.
  403. Dave What Kev says seems reasonable to me.
  404. Kev Otherwise we have a discussion about which one we should CFE and which we should vote to deprecate, and this just seemed cleaner/quicker.
  405. Dave But, we'll all need to be prepared on this one, so please do ensure you're ready to vote in the meeting next week.
  406. Dave (Otherwise this could drag on for a month...)
  407. SamWhited We could probably vote on at least two of them right now, I suspect.
  408. Dave Can everyong commit to that?
  409. daniel wfm
  410. Kev I wouldn't want to vote on anything without reading the XEP first, so wouldn't like to vote on anything today.
  411. Dave Great.
  412. Kev But yes, my general policy is Wednesday morning I spend reviewing stuff that's on the Agenda before Council.
  413. Ge0rG +1 for vote next week
  414. SamWhited Really? Because SOAP and Internet Metadata seem like obvious candidates to deprecate, we might as well get those off the table
  415. Dave Kev, I'll get the next agenda out in advance properly.
  416. Kev SamWhited: Except there's interesting stuff in SHIM :)
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  418. Dave SamWhited, I'm willing to bet SHIM is used for vital stuff in pubsub. And I dislike the protocol.
  419. Dave OK.
  420. SamWhited Just SOAP then
  421. Dave 5) AOB
  422. Dave Anything else?
  423. Ge0rG I've got some
  424. Dave SamWhited, I've been to FOSDEM, SOAP is very much deprecated already it seems.
  425. SamWhited Right, so let's go ahead and formalize that and have less to do next week
  426. Dave Ge0rG, Shoot.
  427. Ge0rG 5.1: I'd like to re-call the MUC rewriting @id's discussion from https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2014-July/028988.html
  428. Ge0rG Back then, there were voices against doing so, and now we ended up with origin-id, which is supposed to work around broken MUCs, but doesn't work in practice anyway.
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  431. Ge0rG So I'd like to get the wording (final suggestion at the bottom of https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2014-July/028996.html) into 0045.
  432. Ge0rG | "The service SHOULD reflect the message with the same 'id' that was | generated by the client. If the client did not provide an 'id', the | server MAY generate one 'id' and use it for all reflections of the | same message (e.g. using a UUID as defined in RFC 4122 [18])."
  433. Dave Ge0rG, Can you run up a specific patch to vote on for next week?
  434. Ge0rG Dave: I can put the above sentence into a PR, if you wish so.
  435. Ge0rG I'm aware that this is changing a Draft, but it's reflecting what most implementations are doing anyway.
  436. Ge0rG I've got more AOBs.
  437. Dave Ge0rG, Keep going, then. :-)
  438. Ge0rG Flow said today that <origin-id/> was supposed as a MUC workaround. With 5.1 addressed, I'd like to remove <origin-id/>
  439. Ge0rG (this being 5.2)
  440. Kev Ge0rG: If you're proposing text that breaks MUC, please note that in that text.
  441. Kev (I actually think a disco feature might be appropriate)
  442. Dave Ge0rG, Again, I'd like to see a specific PR to vote on, but given 5.1 I'd see 5.2 as desirable.
  443. Ge0rG and 5.3: RFC 6120 does mandate that if a stanza has an ID, it should be unique globally or in the current session. As we are using @ids end-to-end, the session limitation doesn't make sense. And when we send an error, we must return the original ID, for which we can't guarantee anything
  444. Ge0rG Kev: that was suggested some months ago as well. Should it be on the MUC service or on the individual MUC JID? What would you like it to be called? <will-not-break-ids>?
  445. Kev Ge0rG: We've always assumed that what this really means is that between two JIDs they'll be unique, and glossed over that this also isn't really true.
  446. Kev Ge0rG: Can out of band the details, and get something I'm happy with, I think.
  447. Ge0rG Kev: I'd be glad to get your input on this, even in short form.
  448. Kev Sure, but out of band, so the meeting can stop overrunning :)
  449. Ge0rG I'm sure I had another AOB, but I forgot to write about it to standards@
  450. Dave Ge0rG, Your 5.3 doesn't seem to be more than a statement. But if you'd like to vote on things, next meeting, I'm entirely happy to have these raised and discussed on the mailing list. :-)
  451. Ge0rG maybe it was about more feedback regarding the non-dataforms extension of 401, but Kev made a good point on that on list
  452. Dave 6) Next Meeting
  453. Dave Same Time Next Week?
  454. daniel Wfm
  455. Kev WFM
  456. SamWhited WFM
  457. Dave Lovely.
  458. Ge0rG I can't guarantee yet.
  459. Ge0rG Will be on mobile probably, but I'll try hard.
  460. Dave Ge0rG, If we're going to run through these Draft XEPs, it'd be really useful to have you around.
  461. Ge0rG Dave: I know.
  462. Dave OK.
  463. Dave 7) Ite, Meeting Est.
  464. Dave Thanks all.
  465. Kev Thanks all.
  466. Ge0rG Thanks
  467. Kev Ge0rG: I suggest something like urn:...stable-id as the feature, on the MUC itself.
  468. Ge0rG Kev: that means we need to disco#info each MUC, as opposed to each MUC domain, right?
  469. Kev And then some text that says something like "MUST have a stable id, advertised with ...stable-id.... Previous versions of this spec didn't have this requirement, and so some deploments might not follow this rule".
  470. Ge0rG disco#items/disco#info on your own domain's services is free essentially
  471. Ge0rG Kev: thanks!
  472. Kev The disco feature is kinda assuaging my guilt at making a breaking change to a Draft XEP, as much as anything.
  473. Kev I'm not actually sure that it's something people will genuinely use, because what do you do if it's not there? Stuff just breaks.
  474. Ge0rG Kev: I can promise I'm not going to use that disco#info feature.
  475. Kev But it could be put on the MUC domain and the MUC room, I guess, or just on the domain, or whatever.
  476. Ge0rG but then again, just opening tickets with broken implementations won't solve the problem either
  477. Kev I doubt it's something we're going to address in M-Link immediately, but we've got a rewrite of the MUC code going on at the moment for assorted reasons, including MIX, and I'm intending that to reflect ids.
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  497. jonasw as much as I’d like to take minutes, the council meeting is unfortunately exactly during my commute until at least june :(
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