XMPP Council - 2018-03-06

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  247. Ge0rG Dave: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/600
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  249. Ge0rG Dave: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/600 - "XEP-0045: Implement stable IDs on Reflection"
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  252. jonasw puts an hooray emoji both for 600th PR and for the thing itself
  253. Zash xep-0600 already?? :)
  254. Ge0rG I think somebody volunteered to write XEP-0404
  255. jonasw I also think s o
  256. jonasw kev maybe
  257. Ge0rG I think so too
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  259. Ge0rG People joining with /phone and /tablet JIDs. Somebody really needs to fix their implementation :>
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  262. pep. You mean fix Conversations?
  263. Zash https://hg.prosody.im/prosody-modules/file/6f34e51a23f0/mod_compact_resource/mod_compact_resource.lua An `if event.resource == "phone" then event.resource = ...` in there?
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  268. daniel Ge0rG: join where?
  269. Zash Everywhere
  270. Zash notices https://github.com/siacs/Conversations/commit/63cd8e598177b6b5757ab8518a48a44928dbe387
  271. pep. Why not just let the server do it itself? ^
  272. pep. As account.getResource() doesn't seem to be used if set
  273. Ge0rG random on every bind is similarly broken.
  274. Ge0rG MattJ: you wanted to make public your horrible hack of per-client offline history
  275. MattJ I did
  276. Ge0rG Really, if we have that, we can get rid of MAM.
  277. MattJ Heh
  278. Zash Ge0rG: Worksforme, and I dislike fixed resources like 'phone' enough to just randomize it always
  279. Zash I only know Swift doing what I think is right
  280. Ge0rG Zash: I know some clients doing what I think is right.
  281. Ge0rG And despite my opinion being clearly superior, most developers seem to ignore it and insist on dumb client and server behavior.
  282. Dave FWIW, I explicitly try to make clients use fixed identifiable resources because it helps my debugging.
  283. Ge0rG Dave: could you please highlight the parts of your message that contain sarcasm?
  284. Dave None, in this instance.
  285. Ge0rG Dave: thanks very much. I kind of expected that to be a sarcastic response to my megalomania, especially beacuse I was asking to have human-readable resources for debugging purposes all along.
  286. Ge0rG I'm still convinced that `/phone.########` with a random postfix created by the client on account setup is the most sane middleground.
  287. SamWhited If you're using it for debugging can't the server do that? Use that library that gives you four random words and then tack on some proper randomness. Why does the client need to be involved?
  288. Ge0rG SamWhited: because the server doesn't know if you are connecting with the same client or with a different one
  289. Ge0rG SamWhited: things like push and per-device-offline-history and even parallel session management make more sense if the server can distinguish your client instances
  290. SamWhited *nods* I see. I generally think we should discourage anything that requires individual clients to be known (eg. per-device-offline-history seems like the wrong way to go about doing history), but I suspect I'll never convince anyone else of that.
  291. Ge0rG SamWhited: I think that server-side tracking of individual clients makes much sense and can aid in synchronizing stuff faster.
  292. jonasw not to mention killing off other streams when reconnecting without SM
  293. Ge0rG SamWhited: the more the server knows about a client, the dumber we can make the client
  294. SamWhited I have a vague feeling (not a strong one yet) that it just leads to a more complicated protocol and hurts us, but I don't have any good reasoning for that. I don't think not having it would make any of the clients any less dumb.
  295. SamWhited It just means we have to design specs assuming that all clients get the same data and view of the world, which seems like a reasonable simplification to make.
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  297. Ge0rG SamWhited: yes. But we are not designing a new protocol from scratch, instead we are adding layers of cruft on a 1996 unreliable message dispatching system.
  298. Ge0rG And with the combo of 0198, 0280, 0313 life is a huge mess for client developers.
  299. Ge0rG also offline messages.
  300. Zash 1996? ITYM 1998
  301. SamWhited I don't disagree with any of that, but I also don't think that means we have to keep designing things that way and can move towards simplifying the protocol.
  302. Ge0rG SamWhited: I'm open to suggestions
  303. Kev I think offline messages quietly die.
  304. Kev With 'xmpp 2'.
  305. Ge0rG I think that per-client offline messages would silently fix UX for legacy client users
  306. Kev I think 198 is a different layer, and not really a big deal for clients (at least for acks. I'm still not entirely sold on resume).
  307. SamWhited Kev already said what I was about to say :)
  308. Kev Ge0rG: Only if you assume a small disconnect. Once you get into hundreds of messages, it doesn't.
  309. Ge0rG Kev: with hundreds of messages, MAM with RSM provides a better progress display
  310. SamWhited Although, the other thing I've already said: in my mind it's simpler if the client knows nothing about the resourcepart except that it was assigned one by the server. If the server doesn't necessarily know the difference between clients I think it simplifies what we'll do with the protocol.
  311. jonasw only if you get <count/> :-)
  312. Ge0rG SamWhited: again, only if we start from scratch
  313. SamWhited No, we could do that today
  314. Ge0rG SamWhited: resource binding already has implications based on client identity.
  315. Kev Ge0rG: I don't think so. A server can assign resourceparts to everything already, and some do.
  316. SamWhited Well sure, I'm not suggesting every server change overnight
  317. Kev Or I've not understood.
  318. SamWhited But as Kev just said, it's perfectly backwards compatible to move towards a world where servers always assign a resourcepart.
  319. SamWhited Some of them already do it.
  320. jonasw that’s not a good idea with SM-less clients though?
  321. jonasw unless you take the resource proposed by the client as a hint on which connection to kill.
  322. Ge0rG jonasw: with Carbons that doesn't matter™
  323. jonasw Ge0rG, it does
  324. Ge0rG Because you can just keep two dozens of zombie resources for your client, no problem.
  325. jonasw Ge0rG, but the client would lose messages
  326. Ge0rG The other person will not receive error bounces for messages that went into them.
  327. Ge0rG Zombies are great.
  328. jonasw sarcasm-detector fails
  329. Ge0rG Let's grow them.
  330. jonasw sarcasm-detectors?
  331. jonasw sounds like a good idea
  332. SamWhited If they're a legacy client without carbons or SM they can already lose messages, so it seems like we can ignore that. If we really can't ignore that, then the server can still see what resource part the legacy client is detecting, use that internally for tracking, and then assign it a random one.
  333. Ge0rG jonasw: no, zombies
  334. Dave SamWhited, I don't think you can make things *worse*.
  335. Ge0rG I'm sure we can make things worse.
  336. Dave Ge0rG, Well, yes. s/can/should/
  337. jonasw especially, I realize that the losing messages is independent of killing the old connection
  338. jonasw I was confused, sorry
  339. SamWhited Dave: I didn't follow that; what makes things worse?
  340. Ge0rG And I think that making random resources enforced by the server _will_ make things worse.
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  342. Ge0rG XMPP message delivery is already very fragile, and even with most modern clients you have issues of not receiving 0184 messages.
  343. Dave BTW, I've updated the Spreadsheet Of Doom™ with tomorrows items for a vote. There's a lot. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AZ-Sna6OiRG--b-mJMKv3XXfrn3Nehm0kAtlyJvImL0
  344. jonasw holy smokes
  345. jonasw what’s a CFE?
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  348. jonasw Call For Experience for moving to final?
  349. jonasw so this is essentially a Final vs. Deprecate vote?
  350. Ge0rG jonasw: right
  351. jonasw okay
  352. Zash > Ett webbläsarfel har uppstått. Thanks supporting Firefox
  353. jonasw who’s going to do all the editorwork :-P
  354. Dave jonasw, Exactly. But we vote to CFE, and if that succeeds, I'll drop the other one.
  355. Dave jonasw, Oh, I had a thought about that - would github issues be OK for tracking editor tasks?
  356. jonasw Dave, I’d *love* that
  357. Ge0rG So I grepped for 0020 usage today, and found only 0066 and 0155 that are not deferred
  358. jonasw a bulk issue is fine with me
  359. Dave jonasw, OK, I'll *try* to do that.
  360. jonasw especially if you use the '* [ ] foo' syntax
  361. Ge0rG And 0020 is on the agenda as well
  362. Ge0rG Eh, 0066
  363. Dave jonasw, Hmmm. I can try that, or just individual issues.
  364. jonasw Dave, individual issues would work too, but that might in fact be more overhead because more pageloads for me.
  365. Dave Right.
  366. jonasw I prefer: bluk issue with '* [ ] list' > bulk issue in whatever format > Spreadsheet of Doom ~ one issue per task
  367. jonasw I’m not sure on the ordering of the last two
  368. Dave Yeah, the SoD is useful for tracking voting (at least for me).
  369. Dave But not so much for tracking editor actions.
  370. jonasw if I had +w I could tick off editor actions tehre too. but what I need most is something which gets me an email in my inbox when something is to b e done
  371. Zash Issue tracker!
  372. SamWhited If the editors want to move to GitHub issues (and someone is willing to create the issues), let's close the Trello board to avoid confusion.
  373. jonasw I’d be in favour of that
  374. jonasw I never was able to use the trello thing productively. the email notifications are pretty useless to me
  375. daniel Zash: I'm missing so much context. That commit you linked is just a debug option for Guus to debug open fire. It deliberately not kicks you old resource
  376. daniel And I'm not getting the joined with a resource phone thing either. Like instead of a proper username or what?
  377. daniel That really shouldn't happen
  378. Zash daniel: It looked relevant to the topic at the time
  379. Dave SamWhited, It might be useful for people to note non-GH-ish things for the agenda.
  380. jonasw Dave, for the editor agenda?
  381. Dave jonasw, Council.
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  383. jonasw I think sam was referring to the editor trello, but I might be wrong.
  384. SamWhited Dave: yah, I just meant the editor one. Let's not make editors use two tools.
  385. SamWhited Dave: Also, a request: can there be a tab on that spreadsheet that mirrors the main one but only gives you a view of the last two weeks?
  386. SamWhited (do spreadsheets have a name for that? Like a materialized view in a proper database?)
  387. Dave SamWhited, I have literally no idea. But you're looking for the pink ones.
  388. Dave 29) Close
  389. Dave Yikes.
  390. SamWhited The pink ones are all in the future which I assume means I have no outstanding stuff? I am happy to make a new tab with just the view I care about if you give me access.
  391. Dave SamWhited, Well, yes, the pink ones aren't until tomorrow (I do the spreadsheet first, then the agenda from that).
  392. Dave SamWhited, But also, anything red in your column (except again I've updated that prior to the meeting - which I normally don't do).
  393. SamWhited But my column is in the middle, so I have to find it which makes me sad
  394. SamWhited Or rather, the current date it in the middle, so I have to scroll down and figure out which was the last meeting.
  395. Ge0rG Dave: while we are here. I wanted to address the insufficient uniqueness of IDs in RFC 6120, but I have no idea what we can do about it, process-wise
  396. Ge0rG Can't we align the member names to the spreadsheet column letters, so Kev would be in K, Sam would be in S and Daniel and Dave would be in D? :D
  397. Dave I'm mildly concerned by the idea of provably unique stanza identifiers. But saying they ought to be globally unique seems fair.
  398. Kev Is a 29 item 30minute agenda sensible, or would we be better off chunking this a little bit?
  399. Dave Ge0rG, If I knew how to make the spreadsheet keep Row 1 from scrolling I'd be happy.
  400. Zash is OUGHT in that rfc2119 follow-up?
  401. SamWhited Dave: there is a little dark bar under row 1, drag it down below row 1 and that becomes the title.
  402. SamWhited But I said column, I meant rows. It's the rows I'm trying to get to quicker.
  403. SamWhited *above row 1
  404. jonasw Dave, suggestion: given that that’s going to be a long agenda, could council discuss the PRs (where people put work into getting things proposed) first?
  405. Ge0rG jonasw: 👍
  406. Dave jonasw, That's the cherry on top of the agenda, though.
  407. Dave jonasw, It's the reward for getting through the other bits.
  408. Dave Kev, FWIW, this is really a 15 item agenda, with some items potentially having two votes. I think we'll overrun, but not badly.
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  410. Kev I've not looked at it properly, I'm barely functioning today after a headache yesterday, but I saw it was long and got worried.
  411. jonasw Dave, how about I ping you on github when marking an issue Needs Council?
  412. jonasw does that anything good or do you get the mails anyways
  413. Dave Kev, Most votes are paired CFE/Deprecate, where we don't do the second if we've done the first.
  414. Dave jonasw, I do the agenda by looking at all the open pulls, actually, so while I do get the mails I don't use them for that.
  415. jonasw Dave, okay, whatever works for you :)
  416. jonasw reminds me, gotta send emails
  417. Dave SamWhited, Made it not-pink unless the items are between 0 and 14 days in the past.
  418. SamWhited I still have to scroll down and find it and I am lazy; can I please just get a second tab that I can make a view that only shows the last two weeks that are not in the future?
  419. SamWhited Or can we clear out the old stuff?
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  421. jonasw I think I still have to execute two ediotr actions from last meeting, maybe put those into something else first.
  422. Ge0rG > Or can we clear out the old stuff? I'd like to keep history, even if only in a separate tab. It helps when looking for discussion agendas (our council agenda logs are inherently unsearchable by XEP #)
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  426. SamWhited This would work:
  427. SamWhited =filter(Sheet1!A$2:A, Sheet1!$A$2:$A<TODAY(), Sheet1!$A$2:$A>(MAX(filter(Sheet1!$A$2:$A, Sheet1!$A$2:$A<TODAY()))-14))
  428. SamWhited There may be a simpler way of course
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  434. Dave SamWhited, OK, you now have both a "Current" tab and a "Sam" tab. "Current" lists current votes, and "Sam" only lists current votes for which you haven't voted.
  435. Dave Of course, none of these list anything right now because there are no current votes.
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  437. SamWhited oh individualized tabs; fancy! Thanks
  438. Ge0rG "You need to be logged in as samwhited@gmail.com to view this tab." Bummer.
  439. SamWhited I don't know who samwhited@gmail.com is, but it's not me
  440. SamWhited I appear to be able to see all the tabs, but they all show up with no data in them
  441. Dave SamWhited, Right. Because there are no current votes.
  442. Dave SamWhited, I changed some of the dates to check it worked. :-)
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