XMPP Council - 2018-03-07

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  213. Kev There's so much on the agenda this week, I'm tempted to vote on-list *before* the meeting, just to speed things up :)
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  216. Ge0rG I'm unfortunately late to the party, still moving and only on mobile for the next hour
  217. Ge0rG And the worst thing is, I was only able to work through half of the Dusty drafts in advance 😕
  218. Dave Righty.
  219. Kev 'tis time :)
  220. Dave Yeah, that.
  221. Dave Two ticks while I bring up the agenda - do we have a minute-taker?
  222. jonasw cannot take minutes, on mobile
  223. jonasw 😾
  224. Dave OK. I'll do it if needs be.
  225. Dave 1) Roll Call
  226. daniel Here
  227. Dave SamWhited ?
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  229. SamWhited I'm here
  230. Kev I'm still here.
  231. Dave Cool. So just quasi-missing Georg.
  232. Ge0rG has left
  233. Dave Ah. Well, folks, I seem to have a problem, because I've just been called by my daughter who needs a lift.
  234. Kev Send your votes on list, hope she's ok.
  235. Ge0rG 🤚
  236. Dave Sorry about this - can someone else take over for a bit?
  237. Kev Done.
  238. Dave has left
  239. Dave Kev, She's fine, but she'll get very wet if she tries walking. :-)
  240. Kev 3) CFE for XEP-0020: Feature Negotiation https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0020.html
  241. Kev Each of these votes has two parts - first whether to Call For Experience before moving to Final, the second to instead deprecate it. This one is for CFE with the intention to later move to Final.
  242. Ge0rG Is 0020 actually used in practice? It's referenced from 0066 and some deprecated ones
  243. Kev I'm -1 for 20 CFE.
  244. Kev No, 20's not used in practice anywhere I'm aware, although 155 references it
  245. Ge0rG Yes, 0155 was the other one.
  246. Kev 155 is also not used :)
  247. Ge0rG -1 then.
  248. daniel -1
  249. SamWhited I've been thinking about this one a lot, because I've *thought* tabout using 0020 a few times, but never ended up doing it and am not aware of anything else using it. I'm leaning vaguely against moving it on, so -0 I suppose.
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  251. Kev 4) Deprecate XEP-0020: Feature Negotiation https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0020.html
  252. SamWhited +0
  253. Kev Should we instead deprecate? I'm +1, although we do need to sort 155 too.
  254. Ge0rG +1 as well
  255. Kev SamWhited: If you feel it's useful, you can easily -1 here :)
  256. daniel +1
  257. SamWhited No, I'm all for getting rid of cruft that no one uses. It actually occured to me that I've been confused by this one a few times when I thought about using it too, so I feel better about a -1/+1 respectively, but I'll leave my votes alone so that you don't have to change anything.
  258. Kev Well, Dave's on-list if Sam wants to change his mind anyway.
  259. Kev 5) CFE for XEP-0048: Bookmarks https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0048.html
  260. Kev I feel this is premature while the ongoing 49/223 mismatch question isn’t answered. +0
  261. Ge0rG There's that elephant in the room...
  262. Ge0rG What Kev said
  263. SamWhited This is just to do a CFE, not to actually move to draft, right? Seems like a good way to get more feedback. +1
  264. Ge0rG So we need a way forward with that as well
  265. Kev SamWhited: Final, not Draft. But correct.
  266. jonasw cfe is for final not draft
  267. SamWhited err, right, that.
  268. Ge0rG Maybe a cfe with the additional note about 0049 will do the trick
  269. Kev I'm not going to fight this :)
  270. Kev daniel?
  271. daniel I'm not really sure.
  272. daniel Yeah I guess +1
  273. Ge0rG I like the current wording in 0048, it's good enough anyway
  274. Kev Ge0rG?
  275. Ge0rG Ge0rG [17:11]: > Maybe a cfe with the additional note about 0049 will do the trick Read that as a +1
  276. Kev 6) Deprecate XEP-0048: Bookmarks https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0048.html
  277. Kev -1
  278. Ge0rG -1
  279. daniel -1
  280. SamWhited -1
  281. Kev I'm just going to assume everyone who's +1 for CFE is going to be -1 deprecating going forwards and skip the vote.
  282. Ge0rG Kev: yes please
  283. Kev 7) CFE for XEP-0059: Result Set Management https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0059.html
  284. Ge0rG What about the recent discussion of combining before and after in MAM RSM.
  285. Kev The ongoing before/after discussion in the context of MAM makes this seem premature too, as this might result in significant change (at least in how some people are reading it). -1
  286. SamWhited +1
  287. Kev Ge0rG: Yes, I think we need to resolve that before we can sensibly think about Finalling this.
  288. daniel +1
  289. Ge0rG -1, what Kev said. Also -1 to depreciation
  290. Kev 8) Deprecate XEP-0059: Result Set Management https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0059.html
  291. Kev -1
  292. SamWhited -1
  293. daniel -1
  294. Kev 9) CFE for XEP-0066: Out of Band Data https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0066.html
  295. Kev +1
  296. daniel I'm not really sure what this is used for exactly...
  297. Ge0rG This is a good candidate for the "good parts" discussion
  298. daniel But +1
  299. SamWhited +1
  300. Ge0rG daniel: it's used for inline images in conversations
  301. Kev Ge0rG: Vote?
  302. Ge0rG Is anyone using the iq part of it?
  303. Kev I don't know, I think CFE should be interesting for this one.
  304. daniel Ge0rG: seems pretty hacky to me
  305. Ge0rG Then +1 for CFE
  306. Kev 10) Deprecate XEP-0066: Out of Band Data https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0066.html All -1
  307. Kev 11) CFE for XEP-0072: SOAP Over XMPP https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0072.html
  308. SamWhited -1
  309. Kev +1. It seems sensible to deprecate it, but I think that we should ask if anyone’s using it first.
  310. Kev I suspect the outcome of a CFE on this one will make it obvious that it should or shouldn't be deprecated.
  311. daniel What Kev said. +1
  312. Ge0rG +1
  313. Kev 12) Deprecate XEP-0072: SOAP Over XMPP https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0072.html
  314. Kev -1, as above.
  315. SamWhited +1
  316. daniel -1
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  318. Ge0rG -1
  319. Kev 13) CFE for XEP-0079: Advanced Message Processing https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0079.html
  320. Kev I don’t see this advancing to Final unscathed, but +1 for a CFE.
  321. daniel +0
  322. Ge0rG +0
  323. Kev SamWhited?
  324. Ge0rG Somebody was recently asking for a way to make time limited messages
  325. SamWhited -0 I suppose; I'm a bit torn on this one, but I don't think it's worth blocking a CFE.
  326. daniel Not with this thought Ge0rG
  327. daniel Totally unsuited for that job
  328. Kev SamWhited: The CFE has been blocked (needs three +1).
  329. Kev 14) Deprecate XEP-0079: Advanced Message Processing https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0079.html
  330. SamWhited Oh, huh, I didn't realize that worked differently. Fair enough, I'll +1 for CFE then
  331. Kev -1. I think it needs discussion first (e.g. with a CFE, but doesn't need to be)
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  333. SamWhited +1 for deprecation also though.
  334. Kev Almost all Council votes work that they need a majority of +1 with no -1. I've not checked the rules for CFE recently, but I'm sure it won't pass on a minority.
  335. Ge0rG -1, agreed with Kev
  336. daniel -1
  337. Kev 15) CFE for XEP-0092: Software Version https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0092.html
  338. Kev +1
  339. SamWhited +1
  340. daniel +1
  341. Ge0rG +1
  342. Kev 16) Deprecate XEP-0092: Software Version https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0092.html All -1
  343. Kev 17) CFE for XEP-0122: Data Forms Validation https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0122.html
  344. Kev +1
  345. daniel +1
  346. SamWhited +0
  347. Ge0rG +1, sounds useful enough, but no idea who's using it
  348. Kev 18) Deprecate XEP-0122: Data Forms Validation https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0122.html Kev, daniel, Ge0rG -1
  349. Kev SamWhited?
  350. SamWhited +1
  351. Kev 19) CFE for XEP-0131: Stanza Headers and Internet Metadata https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0131.html
  352. Kev +1. I think this is one for deprecation, but I also think we need to discuss, particularly the xep60 dependency, first.
  353. daniel +1
  354. SamWhited -0, wouldn't block.
  355. Kev Ge0rG?
  356. Ge0rG +1
  357. Kev 20) Deprecate XEP-0131: Stanza Headers and Internet Metadata https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0131.html Kev, daniel, Ge0rG -1
  358. Kev SamWhited?
  359. SamWhited +0
  360. Kev 21) CFE for XEP-0141: Data Forms Layout https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0141.html
  361. Kev +1
  362. Ge0rG +1
  363. daniel +1
  364. Ge0rG I'm for deprecation of 0131, but only after some discussion
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  366. Ge0rG Sorry, mobile lag
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  368. SamWhited -0 for CFE, +0 to deprecate.
  369. Kev 22) Deprecate XEP-0141: Data Forms Layout https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0141.html Kev, Ge0rG, daniel -1. Sam +0
  370. Kev 23) CFE for XEP-0229: Stream Compression with LZW https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0229.html
  371. Kev +1. Be interesting to see if anyone actually uses this.
  372. SamWhited I have an implementation and use it, so +1
  373. SamWhited HipChat also uses it, IIRC.
  374. SamWhited (although I can't remember; I implemented it, and I *think* I used LZW, but it might have been gzip)
  375. Ge0rG Compression is insecure if not applied very cautiously. We should deprecate all of the related xeps
  376. Ge0rG So I'm -1 / +1
  377. Ge0rG Unless this is a veto, then I'm - 0
  378. Kev Our illustrious Chair should check the rules, but I believe (without checking) all the -1s on CFE will veto them.
  379. SamWhited I generally agree with that, so I am a bit torn, but do want to have a CFE and see what others think.
  380. Ge0rG Kev: then log me as -0 please
  381. Dave (Back, but Kev can carry on for consistency)
  382. Kev daniel: Got a vote on this one?
  383. SamWhited Dave: did you really go anywhere, or did you just want someone else to go through this massive list for you? *squinty eyes*
  384. daniel +1 cfe with an option to later deprecate the compression xep
  385. daniel Not just this xep
  386. Dave SamWhited, Can I borrow your fifth amendment for a sec?
  387. Kev Dave: Are you jumping in to vote now, or On List for the rest too?
  388. SamWhited Dave: any time
  389. Ge0rG has left
  390. SamWhited > XMPP Extensions Editor shall issue a Call for Experience
  391. Kev I'll take that as an On List and move on :)
  392. Kev 24) Deprecate XEP-0229: Stream Compression with LZW https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0229.html
  393. Kev -1
  394. SamWhited Maybe we should have just been voting to deprecate, doesn't look like we need to vote at all on a CFE; oh well.
  395. SamWhited +0
  396. Ge0rG +1
  397. Kev daniel is -1 presumably as +1 on CFE
  398. Kev Ok, ta.
  399. SamWhited Not that it hurts; I guess we can only ask the editor to issue one for any that we've voted on (though if they wanted to do it for others, that's their business)
  400. Kev Now onto the 'real' stuff.
  401. Kev 25) XEP-0045: Implement stable IDs on Reflection #600 https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/600
  402. Kev The feature should probably be named otherwise (e.g. http://jabber.org/protocol/muc#muc_stable_id for consistency with xep45, or a URI for consistency with new stuff), but ok to the intent. +1 after that tweak.
  403. Dave +1 on that. Looks OK.
  404. daniel +1
  405. SamWhited +1
  406. Kev Ge0rG: Are you ok with my above tweak?
  407. Ge0rG Kev: check the XEP, it's full of muc_* features. I've taken consistency with those
  408. Kev I don't think they're *features*, I think they're config settings, from memory.
  409. Ge0rG Kev: but I'm fine either way
  410. Kev goes to xep45 quickly.
  411. Ge0rG Kev: you might be right
  412. SamWhited Can you two hash that out after the meeting (unless it's going to change a vote)?
  413. Ge0rG SamWhited: apparently it is, for Kev
  414. Kev I suspect either I'll be wrong, in which case I'll +1 anyway, or I'm right and the change isn't contentious.
  415. Kev 26) XEP-0153: Clarify encoding of update hash #593 https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/593
  416. Kev +1
  417. daniel +1
  418. SamWhited +1 (with the note that "hexidecimal digits" doesn't make much sense, but whatever, people will know what it means)
  419. Dave +1
  420. Ge0rG +1
  421. Kev 27) Date of next meeting SBTSBC?
  422. Dave +1 to that.
  423. SamWhited oh, huh, nevermind, Wikipedia suggests that "digit" Is used regardless of the radix or number of symbols.
  424. SamWhited Ahem, back to this… +1
  425. daniel Wfm
  426. Kev Good enough :)
  427. Kev 28) AOB?
  428. Ge0rG +1W WFM
  429. Dave None from me - I'll do the Editor's Issue for this and read through to write up the minutes.
  430. SamWhited Can I request that anything we voted on today where we ended up with no consensus to move forward or deprecate be added to the agenda for next week so we can hash through it in more detail and figure out why and what we want to do?
  431. Kev SamWhited: I suggest we do so onlist, before next meeting, personally.
  432. Kev But yes, we should see where the bodies have fallen and work out next steps.
  433. Dave SamWhited, I'll try to highlight those in the minutes, too, so we can thrash on-list as well.
  434. SamWhited That would work too, thanks!
  435. Kev Dave: I'm happy to write minutes if you like, as you weren't here.
  436. Kev I think we're done.
  437. Kev hangs the navel
  438. peter Great work!
  439. Kev Thanks Peter. I think that might have been the most on the agenda in a Council meeting ever. I'm amazed Dave had the stamina to go through them all.
  440. Kev Oh, wait.
  441. SamWhited #humblebrag
  442. Ge0rG So the train has emptied enough for me to open up my laptop *just now*.
  443. Kev Nowt about bragging, it's about shaming Dave, which is much more fun.
  444. SamWhited #shameondave
  445. Kev Dave: Shout whether you'd like to minutes or like me to.
  446. Dave Kev, No, I'll do the minute in penance.
  447. Dave MinuteS. Definitely more than one of them.
  448. Kev Thanks.
  449. SamWhited Request for people here:
  450. SamWhited If you start a thread about one of the things that we didn't get consensus on, please start a separate thread for each one instead of replying to all of them on the minutes email.
  451. SamWhited It will be much easier to follow.
  452. Kev Additional request for people: Can folks have a look at my suggested xep50 text and see if it looks sane and let me know, please? If so I'll turn it into a 'proper' PR, else we can adapt.
  453. Ge0rG What Sam said.
  454. Ge0rG Also we should list all XEP-### tags in the subject of minutes mail covering them, for subject-searchability.
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  475. jonasw Dave, thank you very much for the editor issue
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  479. Dave https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/601
  480. jonasw Dave, thanks! :)
  481. jonasw I’m gonna edit it to make it a tad more useful
  482. Dave I messed up, hang on.
  483. jonasw okay
  484. Dave Ta-da.
  485. jonasw awesome
  486. jonasw CFE is not a state, is it?
  487. jonasw (in contrast to proposed)
  488. Dave Right, it's just a Call For Experience to the list.
  489. jonasw right
  490. jonasw gonna make a template thing for that nevertheless
  491. Dave Which is interesting, because the Editor can do it at any time as long as certain conditions are met.
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  498. jonasw Dave (et al.), shall we make the CFE period longer than 14d this time because they are so many at once?
  499. jonasw if so, how long?
  500. Zash Not on council, but that's probably wise. Or sending them in smaller weekly batches.
  501. jonasw I’m fine with both
  502. jonasw ha, I’m just gonna do that batched thing. it’s an editor task anyways.
  503. SamWhited I'd just do 14 days; we can always extend it later if needed.
  504. Zash Seems likely that they'd drown in each others noise if done all at once
  505. SamWhited Either way; batching seems reasonable and it's up to the editor.
  506. jonasw SamWhited, https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/601#issuecomment-371250631 rationale
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  551. dwd has left
  552. Dave has left
  553. Dave has left
  554. dwd has left
  555. Dave has left
  556. Dave has left
  557. Dave has left
  558. Dave has left
  559. SamWhited has left
  560. ralphm has left
  561. Dave has left
  562. Dave has left
  563. ralphm has joined
  564. Syndace has joined
  565. Syndace has joined
  566. Dave has left
  567. dwd has left
  568. Dave has left
  569. jere has left
  570. jere has joined
  571. ralphm has joined
  572. Syndace has left
  573. Syndace has joined
  574. ralphm has joined
  575. Dave has left
  576. Dave has left
  577. Dave has left
  578. Dave has left
  579. Dave has left
  580. Dave has left