XMPP Council - 2018-03-07

  1. Dave has left

  2. Dave has left

  3. vanitasvitae has left

  4. daniel has left

  5. Dave has left

  6. Dave has left

  7. Dave has left

  8. peter has left

  9. vanitasvitae has left

  10. vanitasvitae has joined

  11. dwd has joined

  12. Dave has left

  13. ralphm has joined

  14. dwd has left

  15. Dave has left

  16. Kev has left

  17. Kev has left

  18. daniel has left

  19. vanitasvitae has left

  20. vanitasvitae has joined

  21. ralphm has left

  22. jere has left

  23. ralphm has left

  24. SamWhited has left

  25. Dave has left

  26. dwd has left

  27. dwd has left

  28. ralphm has left

  29. jonasw has left

  30. jere has joined

  31. jonasw has left

  32. jonasw has left

  33. jonasw has left

  34. daniel has left

  35. ralphm has joined

  36. jonasw has left

  37. jonasw has left

  38. jonasw has joined

  39. Dave has left

  40. dwd has left

  41. dwd has joined

  42. Dave has left

  43. ralphm has left

  44. dwd has left

  45. Dave has left

  46. Dave has left

  47. ralphm has left

  48. dwd has joined

  49. dwd has left

  50. ralphm has left

  51. jere has left

  52. Dave has left

  53. dwd has joined

  54. ralphm has left

  55. daniel has left

  56. Dave has left

  57. dwd has left

  58. dwd has joined

  59. ralphm has left

  60. dwd has left

  61. Dave has left

  62. ralphm has left

  63. dwd has joined

  64. SamWhited has left

  65. jonasw has joined

  66. Dave has left

  67. Dave has left

  68. Dave has left

  69. dwd has left

  70. Dave has left

  71. dwd has left

  72. Dave has left

  73. dwd has joined

  74. ralphm has left

  75. dwd has left

  76. Dave has left

  77. Dave has left

  78. dwd has joined

  79. dwd has left

  80. dwd has joined

  81. Dave has left

  82. dwd has left

  83. dwd has joined

  84. Dave has left

  85. dwd has left

  86. Zash has joined

  87. dwd has joined

  88. Dave has left

  89. dwd has left

  90. dwd has joined

  91. dwd has left

  92. Dave has left

  93. Dave has left

  94. Dave has left

  95. Dave has left

  96. dwd has joined

  97. Zash has left

  98. Zash has joined

  99. Dave has left

  100. Dave has left

  101. Dave has left

  102. SouL has left

  103. dwd has left

  104. Dave has left

  105. dwd has left

  106. dwd has joined

  107. ralphm has joined

  108. Zash has left

  109. Zash has left

  110. daniel has left

  111. moparisthebest has left

  112. genofire has joined

  113. genofire has joined

  114. dwd has left

  115. Dave has left

  116. dwd has joined

  117. moparisthebest has joined

  118. vanitasvitae has left

  119. vanitasvitae has joined

  120. ralphm has left

  121. Kev has left

  122. Kev has left

  123. ralphm has joined

  124. ralphm has left

  125. vanitasvitae has left

  126. Holger has left

  127. genofire has joined

  128. daniel has left

  129. vanitasvitae has left

  130. Kev has left

  131. Kev has left

  132. Kev has joined

  133. Kev has left

  134. Kev has left

  135. Kev has joined

  136. Dave has left

  137. dwd has left

  138. dwd has joined

  139. Kev has left

  140. Kev has left

  141. Kev has joined

  142. dwd has left

  143. moparisthebest has left

  144. Kev has left

  145. Kev has left

  146. Kev has joined

  147. moparisthebest has joined

  148. daniel has left

  149. Dave has left

  150. dwd has joined

  151. daniel has left

  152. jere has joined

  153. Tobias has left

  154. jere has left

  155. jere has joined

  156. Dave has left

  157. Tobias has joined

  158. Dave has left

  159. Dave has left

  160. daniel has left

  161. daniel has joined

  162. vanitasvitae has left

  163. daniel has left

  164. daniel has joined

  165. moparisthebest has joined

  166. moparisthebest has joined

  167. daniel has left

  168. daniel has joined

  169. moparisthebest has joined

  170. moparisthebest has joined

  171. daniel has left

  172. daniel has joined

  173. Dave has left

  174. Dave has left

  175. daniel has left

  176. daniel has joined

  177. SouL has left

  178. Dave has left

  179. Syndace has left

  180. Syndace has joined

  181. Zash has left

  182. moparisthebest has joined

  183. dwd has left

  184. Dave has left

  185. Dave has left

  186. moparisthebest has joined

  187. ralphm has joined

  188. ralphm has left

  189. Kev has left

  190. moparisthebest has left

  191. daniel has left

  192. daniel has joined

  193. daniel has left

  194. daniel has joined

  195. daniel has left

  196. daniel has joined

  197. jere has joined

  198. Kev has left

  199. Dave has left

  200. Dave has left

  201. daniel has left

  202. daniel has left

  203. daniel has left

  204. daniel has left

  205. daniel has left

  206. daniel has left

  207. ralphm has left

  208. vanitasvitae has left

  209. Dave has left

  210. ralphm has left

  211. SamWhited has left

  212. Zash has left

  213. Kev

    There's so much on the agenda this week, I'm tempted to vote on-list *before* the meeting, just to speed things up :)

  214. daniel has left

  215. peter has joined

  216. Ge0rG

    I'm unfortunately late to the party, still moving and only on mobile for the next hour

  217. Ge0rG

    And the worst thing is, I was only able to work through half of the Dusty drafts in advance 😕

  218. Dave


  219. Kev

    'tis time :)

  220. Dave

    Yeah, that.

  221. Dave

    Two ticks while I bring up the agenda - do we have a minute-taker?

  222. jonasw

    cannot take minutes, on mobile

  223. jonasw


  224. Dave

    OK. I'll do it if needs be.

  225. Dave

    1) Roll Call

  226. daniel


  227. Dave

    SamWhited ?

  228. zinid has joined

  229. SamWhited

    I'm here

  230. Kev

    I'm still here.

  231. Dave

    Cool. So just quasi-missing Georg.

  232. Ge0rG has left

  233. Dave

    Ah. Well, folks, I seem to have a problem, because I've just been called by my daughter who needs a lift.

  234. Kev

    Send your votes on list, hope she's ok.

  235. Ge0rG


  236. Dave

    Sorry about this - can someone else take over for a bit?

  237. Kev


  238. Dave has left

  239. Dave

    Kev, She's fine, but she'll get very wet if she tries walking. :-)

  240. Kev

    3) CFE for XEP-0020: Feature Negotiation https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0020.html

  241. Kev

    Each of these votes has two parts - first whether to Call For Experience before moving to Final, the second to instead deprecate it. This one is for CFE with the intention to later move to Final.

  242. Ge0rG

    Is 0020 actually used in practice? It's referenced from 0066 and some deprecated ones

  243. Kev

    I'm -1 for 20 CFE.

  244. Kev

    No, 20's not used in practice anywhere I'm aware, although 155 references it

  245. Ge0rG

    Yes, 0155 was the other one.

  246. Kev

    155 is also not used :)

  247. Ge0rG

    -1 then.

  248. daniel


  249. SamWhited

    I've been thinking about this one a lot, because I've *thought* tabout using 0020 a few times, but never ended up doing it and am not aware of anything else using it. I'm leaning vaguely against moving it on, so -0 I suppose.

  250. Dave has left

  251. Kev

    4) Deprecate XEP-0020: Feature Negotiation https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0020.html

  252. SamWhited


  253. Kev

    Should we instead deprecate? I'm +1, although we do need to sort 155 too.

  254. Ge0rG

    +1 as well

  255. Kev

    SamWhited: If you feel it's useful, you can easily -1 here :)

  256. daniel


  257. SamWhited

    No, I'm all for getting rid of cruft that no one uses. It actually occured to me that I've been confused by this one a few times when I thought about using it too, so I feel better about a -1/+1 respectively, but I'll leave my votes alone so that you don't have to change anything.

  258. Kev

    Well, Dave's on-list if Sam wants to change his mind anyway.

  259. Kev

    5) CFE for XEP-0048: Bookmarks https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0048.html

  260. Kev

    I feel this is premature while the ongoing 49/223 mismatch question isn’t answered. +0

  261. Ge0rG

    There's that elephant in the room...

  262. Ge0rG

    What Kev said

  263. SamWhited

    This is just to do a CFE, not to actually move to draft, right? Seems like a good way to get more feedback. +1

  264. Ge0rG

    So we need a way forward with that as well

  265. Kev

    SamWhited: Final, not Draft. But correct.

  266. jonasw

    cfe is for final not draft

  267. SamWhited

    err, right, that.

  268. Ge0rG

    Maybe a cfe with the additional note about 0049 will do the trick

  269. Kev

    I'm not going to fight this :)

  270. Kev


  271. daniel

    I'm not really sure.

  272. daniel

    Yeah I guess +1

  273. Ge0rG

    I like the current wording in 0048, it's good enough anyway

  274. Kev


  275. Ge0rG

    Ge0rG [17:11]: > Maybe a cfe with the additional note about 0049 will do the trick Read that as a +1

  276. Kev

    6) Deprecate XEP-0048: Bookmarks https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0048.html

  277. Kev


  278. Ge0rG


  279. daniel


  280. SamWhited


  281. Kev

    I'm just going to assume everyone who's +1 for CFE is going to be -1 deprecating going forwards and skip the vote.

  282. Ge0rG

    Kev: yes please

  283. Kev

    7) CFE for XEP-0059: Result Set Management https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0059.html

  284. Ge0rG

    What about the recent discussion of combining before and after in MAM RSM.

  285. Kev

    The ongoing before/after discussion in the context of MAM makes this seem premature too, as this might result in significant change (at least in how some people are reading it). -1

  286. SamWhited


  287. Kev

    Ge0rG: Yes, I think we need to resolve that before we can sensibly think about Finalling this.

  288. daniel


  289. Ge0rG

    -1, what Kev said. Also -1 to depreciation

  290. Kev

    8) Deprecate XEP-0059: Result Set Management https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0059.html

  291. Kev


  292. SamWhited


  293. daniel


  294. Kev

    9) CFE for XEP-0066: Out of Band Data https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0066.html

  295. Kev


  296. daniel

    I'm not really sure what this is used for exactly...

  297. Ge0rG

    This is a good candidate for the "good parts" discussion

  298. daniel

    But +1

  299. SamWhited


  300. Ge0rG

    daniel: it's used for inline images in conversations

  301. Kev

    Ge0rG: Vote?

  302. Ge0rG

    Is anyone using the iq part of it?

  303. Kev

    I don't know, I think CFE should be interesting for this one.

  304. daniel

    Ge0rG: seems pretty hacky to me

  305. Ge0rG

    Then +1 for CFE

  306. Kev

    10) Deprecate XEP-0066: Out of Band Data https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0066.html All -1

  307. Kev

    11) CFE for XEP-0072: SOAP Over XMPP https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0072.html

  308. SamWhited


  309. Kev

    +1. It seems sensible to deprecate it, but I think that we should ask if anyone’s using it first.

  310. Kev

    I suspect the outcome of a CFE on this one will make it obvious that it should or shouldn't be deprecated.

  311. daniel

    What Kev said. +1

  312. Ge0rG


  313. Kev

    12) Deprecate XEP-0072: SOAP Over XMPP https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0072.html

  314. Kev

    -1, as above.

  315. SamWhited


  316. daniel


  317. Ge0rG has left

  318. Ge0rG


  319. Kev

    13) CFE for XEP-0079: Advanced Message Processing https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0079.html

  320. Kev

    I don’t see this advancing to Final unscathed, but +1 for a CFE.

  321. daniel


  322. Ge0rG


  323. Kev


  324. Ge0rG

    Somebody was recently asking for a way to make time limited messages

  325. SamWhited

    -0 I suppose; I'm a bit torn on this one, but I don't think it's worth blocking a CFE.

  326. daniel

    Not with this thought Ge0rG

  327. daniel

    Totally unsuited for that job

  328. Kev

    SamWhited: The CFE has been blocked (needs three +1).

  329. Kev

    14) Deprecate XEP-0079: Advanced Message Processing https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0079.html

  330. SamWhited

    Oh, huh, I didn't realize that worked differently. Fair enough, I'll +1 for CFE then

  331. Kev

    -1. I think it needs discussion first (e.g. with a CFE, but doesn't need to be)

  332. jonasw has left

  333. SamWhited

    +1 for deprecation also though.

  334. Kev

    Almost all Council votes work that they need a majority of +1 with no -1. I've not checked the rules for CFE recently, but I'm sure it won't pass on a minority.

  335. Ge0rG

    -1, agreed with Kev

  336. daniel


  337. Kev

    15) CFE for XEP-0092: Software Version https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0092.html

  338. Kev


  339. SamWhited


  340. daniel


  341. Ge0rG


  342. Kev

    16) Deprecate XEP-0092: Software Version https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0092.html All -1

  343. Kev

    17) CFE for XEP-0122: Data Forms Validation https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0122.html

  344. Kev


  345. daniel


  346. SamWhited


  347. Ge0rG

    +1, sounds useful enough, but no idea who's using it

  348. Kev

    18) Deprecate XEP-0122: Data Forms Validation https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0122.html Kev, daniel, Ge0rG -1

  349. Kev


  350. SamWhited


  351. Kev

    19) CFE for XEP-0131: Stanza Headers and Internet Metadata https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0131.html

  352. Kev

    +1. I think this is one for deprecation, but I also think we need to discuss, particularly the xep60 dependency, first.

  353. daniel


  354. SamWhited

    -0, wouldn't block.

  355. Kev


  356. Ge0rG


  357. Kev

    20) Deprecate XEP-0131: Stanza Headers and Internet Metadata https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0131.html Kev, daniel, Ge0rG -1

  358. Kev


  359. SamWhited


  360. Kev

    21) CFE for XEP-0141: Data Forms Layout https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0141.html

  361. Kev


  362. Ge0rG


  363. daniel


  364. Ge0rG

    I'm for deprecation of 0131, but only after some discussion

  365. SouL has joined

  366. Ge0rG

    Sorry, mobile lag

  367. Dave has left

  368. SamWhited

    -0 for CFE, +0 to deprecate.

  369. Kev

    22) Deprecate XEP-0141: Data Forms Layout https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0141.html Kev, Ge0rG, daniel -1. Sam +0

  370. Kev

    23) CFE for XEP-0229: Stream Compression with LZW https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0229.html

  371. Kev

    +1. Be interesting to see if anyone actually uses this.

  372. SamWhited

    I have an implementation and use it, so +1

  373. SamWhited

    HipChat also uses it, IIRC.

  374. SamWhited

    (although I can't remember; I implemented it, and I *think* I used LZW, but it might have been gzip)

  375. Ge0rG

    Compression is insecure if not applied very cautiously. We should deprecate all of the related xeps

  376. Ge0rG

    So I'm -1 / +1

  377. Ge0rG

    Unless this is a veto, then I'm - 0

  378. Kev

    Our illustrious Chair should check the rules, but I believe (without checking) all the -1s on CFE will veto them.

  379. SamWhited

    I generally agree with that, so I am a bit torn, but do want to have a CFE and see what others think.

  380. Ge0rG

    Kev: then log me as -0 please

  381. Dave

    (Back, but Kev can carry on for consistency)

  382. Kev

    daniel: Got a vote on this one?

  383. SamWhited

    Dave: did you really go anywhere, or did you just want someone else to go through this massive list for you? *squinty eyes*

  384. daniel

    +1 cfe with an option to later deprecate the compression xep

  385. daniel

    Not just this xep

  386. Dave

    SamWhited, Can I borrow your fifth amendment for a sec?

  387. Kev

    Dave: Are you jumping in to vote now, or On List for the rest too?

  388. SamWhited

    Dave: any time

  389. Ge0rG has left

  390. SamWhited

    > XMPP Extensions Editor shall issue a Call for Experience

  391. Kev

    I'll take that as an On List and move on :)

  392. Kev

    24) Deprecate XEP-0229: Stream Compression with LZW https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0229.html

  393. Kev


  394. SamWhited

    Maybe we should have just been voting to deprecate, doesn't look like we need to vote at all on a CFE; oh well.

  395. SamWhited


  396. Ge0rG


  397. Kev

    daniel is -1 presumably as +1 on CFE

  398. Kev

    Ok, ta.

  399. SamWhited

    Not that it hurts; I guess we can only ask the editor to issue one for any that we've voted on (though if they wanted to do it for others, that's their business)

  400. Kev

    Now onto the 'real' stuff.

  401. Kev

    25) XEP-0045: Implement stable IDs on Reflection #600 https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/600

  402. Kev

    The feature should probably be named otherwise (e.g. http://jabber.org/protocol/muc#muc_stable_id for consistency with xep45, or a URI for consistency with new stuff), but ok to the intent. +1 after that tweak.

  403. Dave

    +1 on that. Looks OK.

  404. daniel


  405. SamWhited


  406. Kev

    Ge0rG: Are you ok with my above tweak?

  407. Ge0rG

    Kev: check the XEP, it's full of muc_* features. I've taken consistency with those

  408. Kev

    I don't think they're *features*, I think they're config settings, from memory.

  409. Ge0rG

    Kev: but I'm fine either way

  410. Kev goes to xep45 quickly.

  411. Ge0rG

    Kev: you might be right

  412. SamWhited

    Can you two hash that out after the meeting (unless it's going to change a vote)?

  413. Ge0rG

    SamWhited: apparently it is, for Kev

  414. Kev

    I suspect either I'll be wrong, in which case I'll +1 anyway, or I'm right and the change isn't contentious.

  415. Kev

    26) XEP-0153: Clarify encoding of update hash #593 https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/593

  416. Kev


  417. daniel


  418. SamWhited

    +1 (with the note that "hexidecimal digits" doesn't make much sense, but whatever, people will know what it means)

  419. Dave


  420. Ge0rG


  421. Kev

    27) Date of next meeting SBTSBC?

  422. Dave

    +1 to that.

  423. SamWhited

    oh, huh, nevermind, Wikipedia suggests that "digit" Is used regardless of the radix or number of symbols.

  424. SamWhited

    Ahem, back to this… +1

  425. daniel


  426. Kev

    Good enough :)

  427. Kev

    28) AOB?

  428. Ge0rG

    +1W WFM

  429. Dave

    None from me - I'll do the Editor's Issue for this and read through to write up the minutes.

  430. SamWhited

    Can I request that anything we voted on today where we ended up with no consensus to move forward or deprecate be added to the agenda for next week so we can hash through it in more detail and figure out why and what we want to do?

  431. Kev

    SamWhited: I suggest we do so onlist, before next meeting, personally.

  432. Kev

    But yes, we should see where the bodies have fallen and work out next steps.

  433. Dave

    SamWhited, I'll try to highlight those in the minutes, too, so we can thrash on-list as well.

  434. SamWhited

    That would work too, thanks!

  435. Kev

    Dave: I'm happy to write minutes if you like, as you weren't here.

  436. Kev

    I think we're done.

  437. Kev hangs the navel

  438. peter

    Great work!

  439. Kev

    Thanks Peter. I think that might have been the most on the agenda in a Council meeting ever. I'm amazed Dave had the stamina to go through them all.

  440. Kev

    Oh, wait.

  441. SamWhited


  442. Ge0rG

    So the train has emptied enough for me to open up my laptop *just now*.

  443. Kev

    Nowt about bragging, it's about shaming Dave, which is much more fun.

  444. SamWhited


  445. Kev

    Dave: Shout whether you'd like to minutes or like me to.

  446. Dave

    Kev, No, I'll do the minute in penance.

  447. Dave

    MinuteS. Definitely more than one of them.

  448. Kev


  449. SamWhited

    Request for people here:

  450. SamWhited

    If you start a thread about one of the things that we didn't get consensus on, please start a separate thread for each one instead of replying to all of them on the minutes email.

  451. SamWhited

    It will be much easier to follow.

  452. Kev

    Additional request for people: Can folks have a look at my suggested xep50 text and see if it looks sane and let me know, please? If so I'll turn it into a 'proper' PR, else we can adapt.

  453. Ge0rG

    What Sam said.

  454. Ge0rG

    Also we should list all XEP-### tags in the subject of minutes mail covering them, for subject-searchability.

  455. Ge0rG has left

  456. Ge0rG has left

  457. ralphm has left

  458. ralphm has joined

  459. daniel has left

  460. daniel has left

  461. Ge0rG has left

  462. daniel has left

  463. jere has joined

  464. Lance has joined

  465. daniel has left

  466. Lance has left

  467. ralphm has joined

  468. Dave has left

  469. Dave has left

  470. dwd has left

  471. daniel has left

  472. daniel has left

  473. daniel has left

  474. daniel has left

  475. jonasw

    Dave, thank you very much for the editor issue

  476. daniel has left

  477. daniel has left

  478. daniel has left

  479. Dave


  480. jonasw

    Dave, thanks! :)

  481. jonasw

    I’m gonna edit it to make it a tad more useful

  482. Dave

    I messed up, hang on.

  483. jonasw


  484. Dave


  485. jonasw


  486. jonasw

    CFE is not a state, is it?

  487. jonasw

    (in contrast to proposed)

  488. Dave

    Right, it's just a Call For Experience to the list.

  489. jonasw


  490. jonasw

    gonna make a template thing for that nevertheless

  491. Dave

    Which is interesting, because the Editor can do it at any time as long as certain conditions are met.

  492. SouL has joined

  493. jere has joined

  494. ralphm has left

  495. daniel has left

  496. daniel has left

  497. daniel has left

  498. jonasw

    Dave (et al.), shall we make the CFE period longer than 14d this time because they are so many at once?

  499. jonasw

    if so, how long?

  500. Zash

    Not on council, but that's probably wise. Or sending them in smaller weekly batches.

  501. jonasw

    I’m fine with both

  502. jonasw

    ha, I’m just gonna do that batched thing. it’s an editor task anyways.

  503. SamWhited

    I'd just do 14 days; we can always extend it later if needed.

  504. Zash

    Seems likely that they'd drown in each others noise if done all at once

  505. SamWhited

    Either way; batching seems reasonable and it's up to the editor.

  506. jonasw

    SamWhited, https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/601#issuecomment-371250631 rationale

  507. Dave has left

  508. SouL has left

  509. zinid has left

  510. ralphm has joined

  511. peter has left

  512. fippo has joined

  513. ralphm has joined

  514. ralphm has left

  515. peter has joined

  516. ralphm has joined

  517. jere has left

  518. jere has joined

  519. daniel has left

  520. daniel has left

  521. Dave has left

  522. ralphm has joined

  523. Dave has left

  524. daniel has joined

  525. Dave has left

  526. Dave has left

  527. Dave has left

  528. Dave has left

  529. daniel has left

  530. daniel has joined

  531. ralphm has left

  532. ralphm has joined

  533. Dave has left

  534. Dave has left

  535. dwd has left

  536. Dave has left

  537. Dave has left

  538. dwd has left

  539. Dave has left

  540. dwd has left

  541. daniel has left

  542. daniel has joined

  543. SouL has joined

  544. daniel has left

  545. daniel has joined

  546. daniel has left

  547. Dave has left

  548. daniel has joined

  549. Dave has left

  550. Dave has left

  551. dwd has left

  552. Dave has left

  553. Dave has left

  554. dwd has left

  555. Dave has left

  556. Dave has left

  557. Dave has left

  558. Dave has left

  559. SamWhited has left

  560. ralphm has left

  561. Dave has left

  562. Dave has left

  563. ralphm has joined

  564. Syndace has joined

  565. Syndace has joined

  566. Dave has left

  567. dwd has left

  568. Dave has left

  569. jere has left

  570. jere has joined

  571. ralphm has joined

  572. Syndace has left

  573. Syndace has joined

  574. ralphm has joined

  575. Dave has left

  576. Dave has left

  577. Dave has left

  578. Dave has left

  579. Dave has left

  580. Dave has left