XSF logo XMPP Council - 2018-04-11

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  137. Kev Do we have agenda for today?
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  210. moparisthebest the proposal to write 2 MUC PRs I think
  211. moparisthebest the vote on whether someone should bother writing the PRs specifically :)
  212. Kev Pretty sure im-ng should be on there too.
  213. Kev Or should have been last week, but wasn't.
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  216. Dave Kev, I've been busy, I do apologise. I'll knock this out. FWIW, im-ng was fractionally too late for last week, IIRC. Unless I'm thinking of the week before, and just forgot last week.
  217. Kev The latter.
  218. jonasw +1 for the latter because I’m fairly certain that I didn’t do any editor work last week
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  221. Dave Oh. Whoops.
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  227. Dave Right, time.
  228. Kev Think so.
  229. Dave 1) Roll Call
  230. daniel hi
  231. Ge0rG 🙋
  232. Dave SamWhited, ?
  233. Dave 2) Agenda Bashing
  234. Dave So I've not managed to do an Agenda this week, for which I apologise.
  235. Kev I would love to bash an Agenda.
  236. Dave I think we have two CFEs, Kev's IM-NG protoXEP, and... anything else?
  237. jonasw .oO(piñarta agenda?)
  238. jonasw Dave, the GC1.0 abolishment vote
  239. Dave Oh, yes, of course.
  240. Ge0rG I also have a proposal for MUC self-ping
  241. daniel i want to register the muc config option for mam
  242. daniel or at least get the process going / clarify what the process is exactly
  243. Dave OK - I'm going to guess that between the protoXEP, CFEs, and GC-1.0 we'll probably fill the half hour, but we'll see.
  244. SamWhited sorry, I'm here
  245. Ge0rG No need to be sorry.
  246. Ge0rG Dave: 3) minute taker?
  247. Dave Ge0rG, Good plan.
  248. Dave 3) Minute Taker
  249. Dave Either Tedd Sterr will do it or else I will.
  250. Ge0rG It looks like the abolition of Pidgin is a Board agendum now.
  251. Dave :-)
  252. Ge0rG <https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/425>
  253. daniel ,oO(can you just get rid of pidgin be removing session support on the server?)
  254. Ge0rG daniel: it will probably break other clients as well
  255. Dave Right, bear with me while I figure out which CFEs have completed.
  256. jonasw Dave, 0131, 0141, 0229 AFAICT
  257. Dave jonasw, Thanks.
  258. Dave So with that:
  259. jonasw (provided you already voted on 0092 and 0122)
  260. Dave 4) Advance XEP-0131 to Final
  261. Dave jonasw, Yes, we did.
  262. jonasw good
  263. Dave This one is SHIM, BTW.
  264. Kev -1, doesn't have the implementations (and other reasons).
  265. SamWhited Also -1, this doesn't feel like it fits a need in the ecosystem and doesn't have the implementations. We should kill it instead.
  266. Dave I'm going to vote on-list for all of these, I warn in advance - however, in the case of SHIM I can't help feeling I'd *like* to ditch it but it's referred to by other XEPs.
  267. jonasw isn’t it used by PubSub?
  268. Dave jonasw, Pubsub and XEP-0149.
  269. daniel i actually implemented this once. but i feel like this is so niche that who ever needs it can just make up their own syntax and/or use the deprecated one. so -1
  270. Ge0rG I've had a tough fight against generic headers in 0363. -1
  271. Dave 5) Advance XEP-0141 to Final
  272. Dave Data forms layout, BTW.
  273. Kev -1 doesn't have the implementations
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  275. Ge0rG is that referenced from others as well?
  276. Dave Ge0rG, Nope. I've seen it used, though, in XEP-0346 implementations.
  277. daniel -1
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  279. Ge0rG -0
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  281. Kev I'd like to advance 141, but we didn't have the numbers in the CfE, that I saw.
  282. Kev Someone tell me I'm wrong, by all means.
  283. SamWhited -1, same reason as Kev, but also think forms is too complex already and we don't need to shoehorn layout information into the document structure.
  284. Dave 5) Advance XEP-0229 to Final
  285. Dave LZW stream compression
  286. Dave I do have a vote for this: -1 for implementations and also I don't see a driving need for it.
  287. SamWhited I have used this and have implementations, but it's underspecified so -1.
  288. Kev -1
  289. daniel 0
  290. Ge0rG -1 for the security issues of mixing different data classes into a compressed stream
  291. daniel Ge0rG, that argument applies to compression in general though?
  292. daniel not to that particular xep
  293. SamWhited Either way, we need to figure out what we're doing with 0138 and then this should probably just follow whatever happens with that.
  294. Ge0rG daniel: it applies to compression in general and thus to this XEP by extension
  295. Dave 6) Adopt "IM Routingng"
  296. Dave ProtoXEP: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/im-ng.html
  297. Kev This is clearly going to need to adapt as we make further decisions, but I'd like to get it under XSF control.
  298. Ge0rG How could I have missed that submission? on-list
  299. Kev So I'm +1.
  300. daniel Ge0rG, I'm just saying it feels 'unfair' to punish the lzw xep instead of 138
  301. Dave I worry that this might end up the bike shed of bike sheds, but I'm not going to veto, so 0.
  302. Ge0rG daniel: I agree. Please put 0138 on the next agenda.
  303. Kev Dave: It might, but I think it's something we have to work on, and there was reasonable (not particularly rough) consensus at the Summit, I think.
  304. daniel +1 to get it under xsf control. but i'm not really sure i like it in it's current form
  305. Ge0rG I've heard somebody gave a speech, or somesuch.
  306. SamWhited +1
  307. Kev daniel: Sure, that's fine (not liking the current form) - but I thought step one was getting some words down that people can disagree with.
  308. Dave 7) Kill GC-1.0
  309. Dave Kev, "Get a number". :-)
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  311. Ge0rG obviously +1
  312. Kev I am, in principle, ok with removing gc1 from 45, but only if we can do so in a way that makes everything better.
  313. daniel link to pr?
  314. Kev daniel: There's no PR, this is just raising the idea up a flagpole and seeing who salutes.
  315. Dave daniel, There's no PR, so this is a vote on the principle.
  316. Kev i.e. this is a vote on position, rather than standards advancement.
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  318. Ge0rG I promise to prepare a PR if this vote is accepted. Although I don't promise *when* I will be able to submit it.
  319. SamWhited I am tentatively +1 on the general idea; can't hurt to see a PR either way.
  320. Kev I'm fine with seeing a PR, and if you *can* produce one that doesn't break anything I'll be ok with it, but I think that's a big ask and I'm not sure it's possible.
  321. Dave I'm fine with removing "bare" presence as a mechanism for joining a chatroom. However, I worry about what existing clients would do is they fall out of sync and *inadvertantly* join using GC-1.0, and have that then perform a different action.
  322. Ge0rG We have ~two weeks worth of numbers from prosody.im and yax.im, showing that there was only one client not supporting MUC protocol
  323. Dave Ge0rG, Right, but that is a different problem to the one I outline.
  324. Kev Ge0rG: Yes, that's why I'm in principle ok with the idea, as long as it can be done such that nothing existing breaks.
  325. Ge0rG Dave: yes. My position is that it's better to uncover to the user that they were gone than to silently re-join a MUC and probably missing a part of history.
  326. Dave Ge0rG, In any case, I think I'm keen to see what this would do in practise, so +1 to someone else writing a PR. :-)
  327. daniel +1
  328. Dave Ge0rG, Ah. So yes. But that presumes a client will gracefully handle an unexpected join rejection to a presence stanza they didn't think was a join in the first place.
  329. Ge0rG Dave: I hope that sane clients will handle a presence error from a MUC as "you are not there anymore"
  330. Dave Ge0rG, As such, when I see what you're aiming to do, it might nudge me into a couter-proposal.
  331. Dave Ge0rG, That is extremely optimistic of you. Possibly right, too. But certainly optimistic.
  332. Ge0rG Dave: I don't have a proposal beyond what I wrote on standards@
  333. Ge0rG Dave: I'm not sure I'm sane enough to fix insane clients. Nor that I want to volunteer my sanity for that goal.
  334. Dave Ge0rG, Sure. But it might be fun to trial any change and see what clients do.
  335. Ge0rG Kev: I'm not sure whether your position boils down to a -1 essentially, because I can't fix what is broken with MUCs getting out of sync, and GC1 is just a cover-up for it.
  336. Dave Anyway, as I say, I'm in favour of doing this given your evidence thus far.
  337. Kev Ge0rG: I am trying to be open that I think it's an impossible job, while not wanting to stop you trying if you're convinced you can.
  338. Ge0rG Kev: I'm pretty sure I can't fulfill your requirement. And I still think that it's based on a flawed assumption
  339. Dave SamWhited, I don't think I have a vote from you on this one.
  340. Kev My requirement basically being that it's a Draft XEP so we shouldn't break anything that's currently deployed against it?
  341. SamWhited > I am tentatively +1 on the general idea; can't hurt to see a PR either way.
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  343. Dave SamWhited, Oh, sorry - just spotted that.
  344. Kev I think it'll come down to what breaks and where.
  345. Ge0rG Kev: do you consider sending an error to non-joined clients a "break"?
  346. Dave So we're unanimously in favour of Georg writing a PR we can vote on. :-)
  347. Kev Ge0rG: Maybe, depending how clients react to it.
  348. Kev If all clients do a sensible thing, I can probably be talked into it.
  349. Ge0rG Kev: Alright. Could you please perform a study of the clients that you care about?
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  351. Kev Not likely.
  352. Ge0rG I mean, realistically we'll have to reduce the subset of clients.
  353. Dave Ge0rG, I know I don't have access to all the clients I'd want to know about.
  354. Ge0rG I suggest we test all clients that comply with this year's Compliance Suite.
  355. daniel lol
  356. Dave Ge0rG, I don't know how clients I actually work with would react.
  357. Dave Anyway, we've voted, so:
  358. Dave 8) AOB
  359. daniel whats the process for registering a new muc config option?
  360. Ge0rG I'd like to put the MUC self-ping suggestion up for a vote-on-principal
  361. daniel can we take a vote and order the registry to include it?
  362. Ge0rG I'd like to put the MUC self-ping suggestion up for a vote-on-principle
  363. Ge0rG The one from here: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2018-April/034763.html
  364. daniel (since changing the xep45 has been rejected by council members who still serve this year)
  365. Dave daniel, Do you know, I've actually no idea. I'll look into the process. I'd expect it's a matter of "document it".
  366. Ge0rG This one is at least less probable to break all clients.
  367. Dave daniel, I don't think "changing xep45" is quite the same as "adding a new option". Servers add new options all the time, so unless it's changing existing behaviour, a XEP defining the additional behaviour should be uncontentious.
  368. Dave Ge0rG, Looks fine to me. Feels like it could be documented in a new XEP, too.
  369. Ge0rG Dave: what's wrong with adding a use-case into 0045?
  370. Kev I'm fine with adding a self-ping to MUC to check you're there. I'm not ok with intercepting 199 pings to users and replying from the server.
  371. Ge0rG Kev: not to users, to yourself.
  372. Dave Kev, Not to users, to occupants.
  373. Dave Kev, You already have to implement vcard IQs, after all.
  374. Kev Only to your own occupant JID might be ok.
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  376. daniel i'm ok with specifying that a ping to self should be handled (and responded to) by the server
  377. Dave 9) Next Meeting
  378. Dave Same time next week?
  379. SamWhited WFM
  380. Kev WFM
  381. daniel wfm
  382. Ge0rG WFM
  383. Dave 10) Ite, Meeting est
  384. Ge0rG The self-ping-to-occupant was the only useful and O(1) way for a client to check whether it's still joined, anyway.
  385. Dave Once again, sorry for the disorganised lack of agenda,, and thanks for bearing with me.
  386. Ge0rG Dave: next time we expect an organised lack of agenda
  387. Kev Thanks all.
  388. Ge0rG Thanks!
  389. daniel > I don't think "changing xep45" is quite the same as "adding a new option". Servers add new options all the time, so unless it's changing existing behaviour, a XEP defining the additional behaviour should be uncontentious. well you vetod https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/204 last time. that’? what i meant by 'changing the xep'
  390. daniel (re config option for muc)
  391. daniel so apparently this is not the right way to do it
  392. daniel would you like me to create a full new xep just for this config option?
  393. Dave That was a long time ago, no wonder I'd forgotten.
  394. daniel i would just like to find the 'correct way' and then just do it. instead of bike shedding it to death again
  395. Dave daniel, Registry is at https://xmpp.org/registrar/formtypes.html#http:--jabber.org-protocol-mucroomconfig and the submission process is https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0068.html#registrar-reg-formtypes-process
  396. daniel and it's up to the registrar to decide whether to accept this?
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  419. flow daniel, appears so
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  587. guus.der.kinderen has left
  588. Dave has left
  589. guus.der.kinderen has left
  590. SamWhited has left
  591. SamWhited has joined
  592. Dave has left
  593. Dave has left
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  595. guus.der.kinderen has left
  596. SamWhited has joined