XSF logo XMPP Council - 2018-04-18

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  203. Dave Afternoon all.
  204. SamWhited o/
  205. Dave So, it's time.
  206. Dave 1) Roll Call
  207. Dave SamWhited, daniel Kev?
  208. Kev Here.
  209. Dave (We seem to be a Ge0rG down)
  210. Dave Oh, and a daniel down as well?
  211. Dave Hmmm. Seems so. So we're at the minimum for quorum.
  212. Dave 2) Last Minute Agenda Bashing
  213. Dave So Tedd Sterr beat me to an agenda this week, which meant that I didn't really check if there was anything else to add to it. Is there?
  214. SamWhited Not that I'm aware of.
  215. Dave 3) XEP-0050 Execute Issue
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  217. Ge0rG Whoops, sorry.
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  219. Dave Kev, do you want to kick this one off?
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  222. Kev Not desperately. I'm waiting for everyone else to have digested it properly and to say something.
  223. Kev I'm assuming folks haven't.
  224. Ge0rG Kev: everyone else is waiting for your expert opinion
  225. Kev Ge0rG: As of quite a few weeks ago now, everyone else was going to go away and try to understand it.
  226. Kev This is gnarly, I don't think me just suggesting text and people voting based on it looking reasonable is the right thing here.
  227. SamWhited I have read back through this one now, but I also don't remember what the original problem was.
  228. Kev SamWhited: That you can have an illegal state because execute is overloaded in weird ways.
  229. Dave As I understand it, it's that there is a silly-state in XEP-0050 whereby Execute effectively points to an action that doesn't exist.
  230. Kev You have an execute action, but you also have an execute attribute that sets a default action.
  231. Kev And that default action with the execute attribute isn't to use the execute action, which might be invalid.
  232. SamWhited ah yes, thanks. I read back over this, I did not read back over the two proposed solutions from last time, I should probably have done that too.
  233. Kev Dave: It's slightly more complicated than that, because of the weird overloading.
  234. Dave So specifically, §3.4 is the weird state, right?
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  236. Kev https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/598 was how I was trying to address this.
  237. Dave That is, the default for the "execute", which is a sort of action-alias, is "complete" unless any actions are specified, in which case it's "next", which is not always present.
  238. SamWhited frantically reads this one and pretends he did it yesterday
  239. Kev Dave: Yes. Except that execute isn't really an action-alias, it's a default selected button on the form, and the execute action is just weird.
  240. Kev I tried to sort this out by tying the two together (see the first substantive line of the PR).
  241. Dave Kev, Now what i can't remember is why you weren't happy with your own PR.
  242. Kev Because of the way that execute and execute aren't currently the same thing.
  243. Kev And I want everyone to think carefully about whether my PR that tries to make execute and execute the same is going to break anything.
  244. Kev It wasn't that I believed my PR to be wrong, but that I think this one is gnarly and should have proper understand before folks vote.
  245. Kev It wasn't that I believed my PR to be wrong, but that I think this one is gnarly and should have proper understanding before folks vote.
  246. Dave Ah, I see.
  247. Kev Right now if you have execute='complete' and you run the execute command, what you run is 'next'.
  248. Kev And when you have no 'next' action that's clearly all sorts of messed up.
  249. Dave Wait, what?
  250. Dave If you have execute="complete", you run "complete", surely?
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  252. Kev Hahaha, why would you do that?
  253. Dave Oh. No, it's not is it?
  254. Kev No, if you have execute='complete', and there is no 'next' action, and you run 'execute' what you are doing is running the non-existent command 'next'.
  255. SamWhited This was part of the confusion last time too; I'm inclined to say that whatever the final PR does it should do everything in its power to simplify the logic here.
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  257. Kev SamWhited: I believe that's what my PR does. It would mean that where you have execute='complete', running <execute/> would be equivalent to <complete/>
  258. Dave Kev, OK. I now understand your PR in an entirely new light.
  259. Kev But this is a change to some pretty whacky implications and I want people to really understand what the issue is here before blithely accepting my suggestion based on believing that this bit of xep50 is less crazy than it really is :)
  260. Dave Kev, I also think it's potentially wrong. We should probably deprecate the execute action instaed.
  261. Kev Dave: I think that may well be the better solution.
  262. Dave So the case that concerns me is where execute="complete" but a next action exists; your proposal changes that I believe.
  263. Kev Exactly.
  264. peter OT: the other day I found my marked-up paper copy of XEP-0050 from ~8 years ago :-)
  265. Kev peter: Does it fix this? :)
  266. Dave OK, so yes, I think we should be deprecating the execute action on the basis that it doesn't do what I thought it did after several years.
  267. SamWhited That also seems like a good solution to me; especially since multiple people have been confused in a similar way here.
  268. Dave SamWhited, Indeed.
  269. SamWhited Unless peter's notes have an elegant solution written in the margin
  270. peter heh I'll take a look
  271. Kev Alas, the solution was too big to fit in the margin.
  272. Dave "There is a simple solution to this, but alas this margin is too small to contain it"
  273. Dave :-)
  274. Dave OK, let's move on.
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  276. Dave Actually, given the time, do we want to discuss stream compression at all?
  277. Kev Newp.
  278. SamWhited I've got time today; but whatever you all want to do. I don't have much to say on the matter anyways.
  279. Dave Right, I think that's fine - we'll skip the remaining items. I'm not entirely sure what #577's status is anyway.
  280. Dave I'll commit to sorting that out for next week.
  281. Dave 6) Outstanding Votes
  282. Dave I'll sort mine out after the meeting - Ge0rG, do you have a view on im-ng?
  283. Ge0rG Dave: sorry, not yet
  284. Dave Ge0rG, OK. You've a week before it goes through anyway.
  285. Ge0rG I'm currently way over my head in a long-range home relocation
  286. Dave 7) AOB
  287. Dave Ge0rG, Exciting stuff.
  288. peter Alas, my notes on XEP-0050 seem to be mostly editorial, with a bit of content about multi-stage vs. single-stage command sessions, and caching.
  289. Dave (Assuming no AOB)
  290. Dave 8) Next Meeting
  291. Dave Next week same time?
  292. Kev I'm almost certain not to make next week.
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  294. Ge0rG +1W should work for me
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  296. Dave SamWhited, still working for you?
  297. Dave (Assuming so)
  298. Dave 9) Ite, Meeting Est.
  299. Kev Thanks all.
  300. Kev I'm glad I was finally able to share the horror on 50.
  301. Dave Thanks all. Sorry for my disorganisation, I'll get things back on track for next week.
  302. SamWhited Sorry, got distracted. Works for me. Thanks all!
  303. Dave Kev, Thanks for your patience here. I'd clearly been missing the key issue for ages now.
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  367. flow > Kev> No, if you have execute='complete', and there is no 'next' action, and you run 'execute' what you are doing is running the non-existent command 'next'.
  368. flow Don't you run whatever execute points to in this case, e.g. 'complete'? Or am I missing something?
  369. SamWhited heh, that's what this whole discussion was about. You would think that, wouldn't you?
  370. flow Yeah, mostly from "The "execute" attribute defines which of the included actions is considered the equivalent to "execute" for this stage." in xep50
  371. flow It's been a while that I looked into it, but I gave a comparision of Kev's and my suggestion at https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/591#issuecomment-373313491 from my POV
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  383. Dave flow, To my intense surprise, that's not what §3.4 actually says.
  384. Dave flow, It says that "3. If there is an <actions/> element [...] The action "execute" is always allowed, and is equivalent to the action "next".
  385. Dave flow, Hence my thinking is that the "execute" action is a disaster, and we should deprecate it (ie, SHOULD NOT use the action "execute").
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