XMPP Council - 2018-05-09

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  132. SamWhited

    Driving. Should be back online in plenty of time, but just in case I don't respond right away you'll know why.

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  138. Dave

    Time to grab a cuppa, then.

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  141. Dave


  142. Dave

    1) Roll Call

  143. daniel


  144. SamWhited

    I'm here, good timing.

  145. Kev

    I'm here.

  146. Dave

    Ge0rG, ?

  147. jonasw

    !summon Ge0rG

  148. Dave

    I'll assume no Ge0rG then.

  149. Dave

    2) Hoorah because Tedd Sterr is doing the minutes.

  150. Kev

    [15:07:03] <Ge0rG> I'm pretty sure I won't be able to attend next week

  151. Dave

    I'd like it minuted that I like him doing the minutes.

  152. Dave

    Kev, Ta.

  153. Dave

    3) Adopt Proposed new XEP: XMPP Connections across HTTPS (HACX) Title: XMPP Connections across HTTPS (HACX) Abstract: This specification defines a procedure to look up various connection methods for an XMPP server over HTTPS, with a focus on censorship resistance. URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/hacx.html

  154. Kev

    Given the suggestion on-list that we delay looking at this until the next update and pseudovote next week, I'd propose doing that.

  155. Dave

    Well, I'm not convinced that any amount of editing is going to make this right, but I'm happy to defer if others think it's worthwhile?

  156. SamWhited

    I'm also happy to defer it; I have concerns with this one and wouldn't mind having a chance to think about it a bit more anyways.

  157. SamWhited

    happy to defer the vote until next week, that is.

  158. Kev

    Well, I'm -1 this week, but if he's planning to Make Things Better, I'd have thought may as well look at it next week instead.

  159. Dave

    OK, let's just pretend it was never on the agenda and consider it next week.

  160. Kev


  161. Dave

    4) XEPs Stuck In Proposed

  162. Dave

    We had a discussion on-list about this, and various suggestions of removing various states were proposed.

  163. Dave

    Does anyone know if any specific proposals (ie, a PR to XEP-0001) are going to be made?

  164. Kev

    I made a specific proposal but not as a PR, or as appropriate verbiage to make a PR.

  165. SamWhited

    Not that I have heard of

  166. Kev

    But I think being stuck in Proposed is probably a feature.

  167. Dave

    I think it's at best symptomatic of a different problem.

  168. Dave

    And yes, I think it's a feature that we can see the stuckage.

  169. Kev

    Anyway, my proposal was that the end of an LC sees the following happen: 1) Council votes on advancing to Draft 2) If (1) failed, Council votes on Rejecting 3) If (2) fails, it returns to Experimental

  170. Kev

    And then if no-one makes appropriate updates within the deferal period, it defers.

  171. Dave

    That's not awful. (I dislike the double-vote, but still)

  172. Kev

    This solves the problem part of stuck-in-proposed, which is that we don't want to Reject and our process doesn't allow for better, while keeping the nice bit (we see if something's genuinely forgotten).

  173. Kev

    It also allows things to defer naturally if whatever stopped it going to Draft isn't then addressed.

  174. Kev

    The double-vote is slightly icky, but is also the most straightforward thing I could think of.

  175. Dave

    I'd prefer that to the current situation, or to removing Proposed entirely, certainly.

  176. jonasw

    seems good to me

  177. peter

    Right, but we haven't been doing (2)...

  178. Dave

    I'm not sure I see the utility of Rejected, generally, given we've virtually never used it, but still.

  179. SamWhited

    This all just seems like something we need to discuss each time; where do we expect the XEP to go in the future if we're not going to advance it now? How we do that doesn't really matter to me. More procedure seems worthless, but if it makes us discuss it I think that's fine.

  180. Kev

    peter: Right, which is counter to our process in XEP1, so I think we should fix XEP1, and this seems like the simplest way to do that, to me.

  181. Kev

    Dave: Sometimes we accept something to Experimental and don't entirely expect it to ever be advanced to Draft, but we want the barrier to Experimental deliberately low. This allows us to have a (true) Experiment and then to fail the experiment.

  182. Dave

    OK, I'll take on the action to write up Kev's proposal as a PR unless Kev wants to.

  183. Kev

    Please feel free.

  184. Dave

    Kev, I agree, but we have done that virtually never. We let things whither to Deferred instead and be fished back out as desired.

  185. SamWhited

    FWIW, I don't think (2) is a policy problem at all. I was reverting to experimental when I remembered to do it, but mostly I didn't because it's a manual process and the editor process is a pain in the ass.

  186. Kev

    SamWhited: I may be cynical, but I fear that one day someone litigous will aim at the XSF for us not following our formal process.

  187. Kev

    I agree that stuff going back to Experimental is the conceptually Right thing to do in the majority of cases, I'd just like our process to match.

  188. Dave

    SamWhited, Right, what Kev says. We probably need an appeals process so if people think Council isn't following the process they can ask Board to take a look, too.

  189. SamWhited

    Sure, sure, if we want to make it match what we were doing anyways that's fine, but I'm just saying that I don't think it will change or solve anything.

  190. Dave

    SamWhited, Mostly, though, XEP-0001 should document what we do, rather than be an edict for us to follow mindlessly.

  191. Kev

    And the reason for allowing Council to Reject is much the same. Protection against a Bad Actor.

  192. Dave

    Anyway, I'll take that on.

  193. Dave

    5) AOB

  194. Dave

    Any Other Business?

  195. Kev

    It's right that we should basically never have to do this, because we should basically never have a bad actor, but just in case, we don't want to be screwed over when we can't kill a XEP that someone's abusing.

  196. Kev

    Dave: Not here.

  197. Dave

    6) Next Meeting

  198. Kev


  199. Dave

    Same time next week OK for everyone?

  200. daniel


  201. daniel


  202. SamWhited


  203. Dave

    7) Ite, Meeting Est.

  204. Kev

    Thanks all.

  205. Dave

    I'll hopefully have a period of having a bit more time to spend on all this, and not go dashing about the country on a moment's notice. Sorry for my poor performance recently.

  206. peter

    Dave: performance reviews happen in October, so you have time to improve ;-)

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