XMPP Council - 2018-05-09


  1. SamWhited has left

  2. moparisthebest has left

  3. Kev has left

  4. Lance has joined

  5. Dave has left

  6. Dave has joined

  7. Dave has left

  8. Dave has joined

  9. guus.der.kinderen has left

  10. guus.der.kinderen has left

  11. Zash has left

  12. moparisthebest has joined

  13. Zash has left

  14. guus.der.kinderen has left

  15. Dave has left

  16. Dave has joined

  17. Dave has left

  18. Dave has joined

  19. guus.der.kinderen has left

  20. guus.der.kinderen has left

  21. guus.der.kinderen has left

  22. Dave has left

  23. Dave has joined

  24. Dave has left

  25. Dave has joined

  26. Dave has left

  27. Dave has joined

  28. Dave has left

  29. Dave has joined

  30. guus.der.kinderen has left

  31. guus.der.kinderen has left

  32. guus.der.kinderen has left

  33. guus.der.kinderen has left

  34. guus.der.kinderen has left

  35. guus.der.kinderen has left

  36. guus.der.kinderen has left

  37. guus.der.kinderen has left

  38. guus.der.kinderen has left

  39. guus.der.kinderen has left

  40. guus.der.kinderen has left

  41. guus.der.kinderen has left

  42. SamWhited has left

  43. jere has left

  44. guus.der.kinderen has left

  45. guus.der.kinderen has left

  46. guus.der.kinderen has left

  47. guus.der.kinderen has left

  48. daniel has left

  49. daniel has joined

  50. guus.der.kinderen has left

  51. guus.der.kinderen has left

  52. Dave has left

  53. SouL has left

  54. SouL has left

  55. guus.der.kinderen has left

  56. guus.der.kinderen has left

  57. guus.der.kinderen has left

  58. SouL has left

  59. Kev has joined

  60. guus.der.kinderen has left

  61. guus.der.kinderen has left

  62. Dave has left

  63. Dave has joined

  64. daniel has left

  65. Dave has left

  66. Dave has joined

  67. Dave has left

  68. Dave has joined

  69. jonasw has left

  70. Kev has left

  71. Kev has joined

  72. Syndace has left

  73. Syndace has joined

  74. Holger has left

  75. guus.der.kinderen has left

  76. daniel has left

  77. daniel has left

  78. guus.der.kinderen has left

  79. daniel has left

  80. daniel has left

  81. daniel has left

  82. daniel has left

  83. Tobias has left

  84. guus.der.kinderen has left

  85. daniel has left

  86. daniel has left

  87. daniel has left

  88. guus.der.kinderen has left

  89. guus.der.kinderen has left

  90. guus.der.kinderen has left

  91. guus.der.kinderen has left

  92. moparisthebest has left

  93. moparisthebest has joined

  94. Dave has left

  95. Dave has joined

  96. Dave has left

  97. Holger has left

  98. Dave has joined

  99. Dave has left

  100. Dave has joined

  101. Holger has left

  102. daniel has left

  103. moparisthebest has left

  104. moparisthebest has joined

  105. guus.der.kinderen has left

  106. guus.der.kinderen has left

  107. Dave has left

  108. Kev has left

  109. Dave has left

  110. Dave has left

  111. Tobias has left

  112. Dave has left

  113. Dave has left

  114. Tobias has left

  115. Tobias has left

  116. Tobias has left

  117. Tobias has left

  118. Tobias has left

  119. Kev has joined

  120. Tobias has left

  121. Tobias has left

  122. jere has joined

  123. Tobias has left

  124. Tobias has left

  125. Tobias has left

  126. guus.der.kinderen has left

  127. moparisthebest has joined

  128. moparisthebest has left

  129. moparisthebest has joined

  130. guus.der.kinderen has left

  131. SamWhited has left

  132. SamWhited

    Driving. Should be back online in plenty of time, but just in case I don't respond right away you'll know why.

  133. peter has joined

  134. flow has left

  135. flow has joined

  136. guus.der.kinderen has left

  137. guus.der.kinderen has left

  138. Dave

    Time to grab a cuppa, then.

  139. guus.der.kinderen has left

  140. guus.der.kinderen has left

  141. Dave

    OK.

  142. Dave

    1) Roll Call

  143. daniel

    Hi

  144. SamWhited

    I'm here, good timing.

  145. Kev

    I'm here.

  146. Dave

    Ge0rG, ?

  147. jonasw

    !summon Ge0rG

  148. Dave

    I'll assume no Ge0rG then.

  149. Dave

    2) Hoorah because Tedd Sterr is doing the minutes.

  150. Kev

    [15:07:03] <Ge0rG> I'm pretty sure I won't be able to attend next week

  151. Dave

    I'd like it minuted that I like him doing the minutes.

  152. Dave

    Kev, Ta.

  153. Dave

    3) Adopt Proposed new XEP: XMPP Connections across HTTPS (HACX) Title: XMPP Connections across HTTPS (HACX) Abstract: This specification defines a procedure to look up various connection methods for an XMPP server over HTTPS, with a focus on censorship resistance. URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/hacx.html

  154. Kev

    Given the suggestion on-list that we delay looking at this until the next update and pseudovote next week, I'd propose doing that.

  155. Dave

    Well, I'm not convinced that any amount of editing is going to make this right, but I'm happy to defer if others think it's worthwhile?

  156. SamWhited

    I'm also happy to defer it; I have concerns with this one and wouldn't mind having a chance to think about it a bit more anyways.

  157. SamWhited

    happy to defer the vote until next week, that is.

  158. Kev

    Well, I'm -1 this week, but if he's planning to Make Things Better, I'd have thought may as well look at it next week instead.

  159. Dave

    OK, let's just pretend it was never on the agenda and consider it next week.

  160. Kev

    +1

  161. Dave

    4) XEPs Stuck In Proposed

  162. Dave

    We had a discussion on-list about this, and various suggestions of removing various states were proposed.

  163. Dave

    Does anyone know if any specific proposals (ie, a PR to XEP-0001) are going to be made?

  164. Kev

    I made a specific proposal but not as a PR, or as appropriate verbiage to make a PR.

  165. SamWhited

    Not that I have heard of

  166. Kev

    But I think being stuck in Proposed is probably a feature.

  167. Dave

    I think it's at best symptomatic of a different problem.

  168. Dave

    And yes, I think it's a feature that we can see the stuckage.

  169. Kev

    Anyway, my proposal was that the end of an LC sees the following happen: 1) Council votes on advancing to Draft 2) If (1) failed, Council votes on Rejecting 3) If (2) fails, it returns to Experimental

  170. Kev

    And then if no-one makes appropriate updates within the deferal period, it defers.

  171. Dave

    That's not awful. (I dislike the double-vote, but still)

  172. Kev

    This solves the problem part of stuck-in-proposed, which is that we don't want to Reject and our process doesn't allow for better, while keeping the nice bit (we see if something's genuinely forgotten).

  173. Kev

    It also allows things to defer naturally if whatever stopped it going to Draft isn't then addressed.

  174. Kev

    The double-vote is slightly icky, but is also the most straightforward thing I could think of.

  175. Dave

    I'd prefer that to the current situation, or to removing Proposed entirely, certainly.

  176. jonasw

    seems good to me

  177. peter

    Right, but we haven't been doing (2)...

  178. Dave

    I'm not sure I see the utility of Rejected, generally, given we've virtually never used it, but still.

  179. SamWhited

    This all just seems like something we need to discuss each time; where do we expect the XEP to go in the future if we're not going to advance it now? How we do that doesn't really matter to me. More procedure seems worthless, but if it makes us discuss it I think that's fine.

  180. Kev

    peter: Right, which is counter to our process in XEP1, so I think we should fix XEP1, and this seems like the simplest way to do that, to me.

  181. Kev

    Dave: Sometimes we accept something to Experimental and don't entirely expect it to ever be advanced to Draft, but we want the barrier to Experimental deliberately low. This allows us to have a (true) Experiment and then to fail the experiment.

  182. Dave

    OK, I'll take on the action to write up Kev's proposal as a PR unless Kev wants to.

  183. Kev

    Please feel free.

  184. Dave

    Kev, I agree, but we have done that virtually never. We let things whither to Deferred instead and be fished back out as desired.

  185. SamWhited

    FWIW, I don't think (2) is a policy problem at all. I was reverting to experimental when I remembered to do it, but mostly I didn't because it's a manual process and the editor process is a pain in the ass.

  186. Kev

    SamWhited: I may be cynical, but I fear that one day someone litigous will aim at the XSF for us not following our formal process.

  187. Kev

    I agree that stuff going back to Experimental is the conceptually Right thing to do in the majority of cases, I'd just like our process to match.

  188. Dave

    SamWhited, Right, what Kev says. We probably need an appeals process so if people think Council isn't following the process they can ask Board to take a look, too.

  189. SamWhited

    Sure, sure, if we want to make it match what we were doing anyways that's fine, but I'm just saying that I don't think it will change or solve anything.

  190. Dave

    SamWhited, Mostly, though, XEP-0001 should document what we do, rather than be an edict for us to follow mindlessly.

  191. Kev

    And the reason for allowing Council to Reject is much the same. Protection against a Bad Actor.

  192. Dave

    Anyway, I'll take that on.

  193. Dave

    5) AOB

  194. Dave

    Any Other Business?

  195. Kev

    It's right that we should basically never have to do this, because we should basically never have a bad actor, but just in case, we don't want to be screwed over when we can't kill a XEP that someone's abusing.

  196. Kev

    Dave: Not here.

  197. Dave

    6) Next Meeting

  198. Kev

    SBTSBC

  199. Dave

    Same time next week OK for everyone?

  200. daniel

    Yew

  201. daniel

    Yes

  202. SamWhited

    wfm

  203. Dave

    7) Ite, Meeting Est.

  204. Kev

    Thanks all.

  205. Dave

    I'll hopefully have a period of having a bit more time to spend on all this, and not go dashing about the country on a moment's notice. Sorry for my poor performance recently.

  206. peter

    Dave: performance reviews happen in October, so you have time to improve ;-)

  207. jere has joined

  208. guus.der.kinderen has left

  209. Tobias has left

  210. guus.der.kinderen has left

  211. Dave has left

  212. guus.der.kinderen has left

  213. Dave has left

  214. jere has joined

  215. jere has left

  216. jere has joined

  217. guus.der.kinderen has left

  218. Kev has left

  219. guus.der.kinderen has left

  220. SamWhited has left

  221. guus.der.kinderen has left

  222. guus.der.kinderen has left

  223. Kev has joined

  224. guus.der.kinderen has left

  225. vanitasvitae has left

  226. vanitasvitae has left

  227. vanitasvitae has joined

  228. guus.der.kinderen has left

  229. guus.der.kinderen has left

  230. vanitasvitae has left

  231. guus.der.kinderen has left

  232. guus.der.kinderen has left

  233. Dave has left

  234. Dave has left

  235. guus.der.kinderen has left

  236. Dave has left

  237. guus.der.kinderen has left

  238. Zash has left

  239. guus.der.kinderen has left

  240. guus.der.kinderen has left

  241. daniel has left

  242. guus.der.kinderen has left

  243. Zash has left

  244. pep. has left

  245. guus.der.kinderen has left

  246. Dave has left

  247. Dave has left

  248. Dave has left

  249. Dave has left

  250. Dave has left

  251. Dave has left

  252. Dave has left

  253. guus.der.kinderen has left

  254. guus.der.kinderen has left

  255. moparisthebest has left

  256. Dave has left

  257. guus.der.kinderen has left

  258. Dave has left

  259. Dave has left

  260. Dave has left

  261. SamWhited has left

  262. peter has left

  263. dwd has joined

  264. dwd has left

  265. ralphm has joined

  266. daniel has left

  267. guus.der.kinderen has left

  268. Dave has left

  269. jere has joined

  270. guus.der.kinderen has left

  271. Dave has left

  272. Dave has left

  273. Dave has left

  274. Dave has left

  275. Lance has joined

  276. Dave has left

  277. Lance has left

  278. Dave has left

  279. dwd has joined

  280. dwd has left

  281. dwd has joined

  282. vanitasvitae has left

  283. guus.der.kinderen has left

  284. dwd has left

  285. guus.der.kinderen has left

  286. Dave has left

  287. Dave has left

  288. dwd has joined