XMPP Council - 2018-08-01

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  209. Dave arranges the chairs
  210. Kev sits at the back.
  211. Zash sits outside
  212. jonasw arranges for buckets of water for everyone to dip their feet in
  213. jonasw cold water even
  214. Dave 1) Roll Call
  215. SamWhited here
  216. Dave Here, obviously.
  217. Kev mutters from the back
  218. SamWhited (by phone, replies may be slow)
  219. Ge0rG o/
  220. Dave No Daniel, but I'm assuming he's still on his travels?
  221. Ge0rG So Dave arranged the Chair.
  222. Ge0rG I think he promised to come back this week?
  223. Dave I wasn't sure. I know we were missing multiple last week hence the skip, but I thought Daniel was away longer.
  224. Ge0rG pinged daniel in private.
  225. Dave Anyway, four of us will do.
  226. Dave 2) Agenda Bashing
  227. Dave Any updates to the Agenda?
  228. Ge0rG I liked it, so I propose to change the subject of #2
  229. Dave (I'm hoping not, but in case I've missed something...)
  230. Dave 3) Items for voting:
  231. Dave 3a) XEP-0050: Remove the status attribute from the request #681 https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/681
  232. Dave This seems like a pretty straightforward case to me - optional inclusion of an attribute that the receiver is mandated to ignore. So I'm +1.
  233. Kev I think this is a typo actually.
  234. SamWhited +1, this seems very sensible.
  235. Dave What is? The statement being removed?
  236. Kev I think it's a typo of 'status' instead of 'action', and the better fix might be to fix the typo.
  237. Kev From my reading -50 earlier.
  238. SamWhited Why have an optional attribute at all? Feels rather pointless.
  239. Dave SamWhited, If it's restating a default, that makes more sense.
  240. Ge0rG +1
  241. jonasw Kev, that makes sense
  242. SamWhited then it should be required still so you can rely on it
  243. SamWhited having to check 'is it the default value or does it not exist' is just cumbersome for no reason in my mind
  244. Kev SamWhited: Possibly, but that's orthogonal to this patch, I think.
  245. Dave SamWhited, If it's not the default value it could be cancelling, though.
  246. jonasw I think Kev is right and it was meant to say "action"
  247. Dave But in any case, Kev, can you make a comment to that effect and I'll look at it in more detail - could be an example that clarifies too.
  248. SamWhited oh yah, I guess so
  249. Dave 3b) Proposed XMPP Extension: File Sharing Notifications https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/fsn.html
  250. Kev A comment where? Not on the PR, presumably.
  251. jonasw (in reply to the minutes probably)
  252. Ge0rG I think Kev is right regarding the typo, but the typo is in the XEP and not in the PR, and the PR is self-consistent.
  253. Ge0rG Also the PR removes the typo.
  254. Kev I don't like several things about FSN, and think we could almost certainly do it a better way, but I don't see anything preventing Experimental, so +1.
  255. Ge0rG I don't like that there is no enumeration of all possible FSN states, and that there is no example of how to stop FSN. But I like the idea, so +1
  256. Dave I think a protocol in this space would be useful (even if this changes quite a bit on the way). +1.
  257. Ge0rG It might be good to put FSN as a payload into CSN, but I have no strong opinion on that.
  258. SamWhited what kev said, except that I'm not sure if I think it should go to experimental or not. on list though.
  259. Dave Ge0rG, There was some discussion around that, but I forget what.
  260. Ge0rG Dave: it was in the xsf@ MUC
  261. jonasw Ge0rG, reasons against doing that: (a) (weak) CSN is final, (b) FSN states should be orthogonal to CSN states (see the business rules)
  262. Dave 3c) XEP-0065, XEP-0363: Document exposing the service on the user’s domain #682 https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/682
  263. Dave FWIW, I understand why this is a single PR against multiple XEPs, but I'm not sure it's a good idea. XEP-0001 suggests these two changes should be voted upon distinctly by Council.
  264. Kev I think the intention here is right, but I'm afraid I think the way this is formulated is adding confusion rather than resolving it. I think you lead with "Here's how you see a domain has the feature" and then go with "And here's how you check the subdomains if it doesn't>
  265. jonasw Dave, council doesn’t need to vote on the second change, because '363 isn’t draft yet
  266. jonasw council only needs to vote on the change to '65, and if you reject that one, I guess Link Mauve will split
  267. SamWhited oh interesting, I mussed this one. on list, but looking forward to reading it.
  268. Dave jonasw, Yes, true, good point.
  269. SamWhited missed, even.
  270. Dave SamWhited, Mussed you have mist it?
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  272. SamWhited Ain't phones great?
  273. Ge0rG onlist.
  274. Dave I think I'll vote on list with this one as well, mostly to take on board Kev's comment and see if I agree.
  275. Dave Kev, Is that a -1?
  276. Ge0rG I don't understand the PR against 65 as is, will have to research the context first.
  277. Kev I feel that -1 sends not quite the right message, because I agree with the change in principle, just not the execution, but yes. I'd at least like to be persuaded I'm wrong before it's merged.
  278. Dave Kev, An easy-rectifiable -1, then.
  279. Kev Yes.
  280. Dave 3d) Proposed XMPP Extension: Schrödinger's Chat https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/muc-selfping.html
  281. Ge0rG +1 obviously. AMA
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  284. Dave I have comments on this, but nothing that'd prevent it going onto Experimental.
  285. Ge0rG This was discussed in October last year already on standards@
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  288. jonasw .oO(what if another MSN-client changes your nickname while your ping is in-flight and you get an item-not-found or whatever back because your ping target vanished…)
  289. SamWhited My only imediate concern is the title. Assuming it's changed to something more discoverable before going to experimental I'm +1
  290. Ge0rG jonasw: that's a very interesting one. Do you know of implementations that will change your nickname with MSN?
  291. Ge0rG SamWhited: is that a -1?
  292. Kev I think I might quibble about the 'sometimes, without warning, intercept, optionally', but otherwise it seems sane enough. +1
  293. SamWhited yes, I suppose it's a temporary -1
  294. Kev (Other than the name, but I'm not blocking on that even if it pushes the envelope of silliness too far for me)
  295. Ge0rG I liked the proposal by Zash, "Schrödinger's chat (Or, how I learned to stop worrying and self-ping in MUCs)"
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  298. jonasw Ge0rG, same can happen if you’re changing your nickname yourself (although this can probably be solved by deferring the ping for some time after requesting a nick change)
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  301. Dave Kev, It's far, far too late for you to pretend to be the sensible one.
  302. Ge0rG jonasw: I'm sure you won't first change the nick and then send a ping to your old nick
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  304. Kev I wouldn't dare. I'm suggesting I'm not sensible, and this is too far even for me.
  305. jonasw Ge0rG, why not, I have to wait until I get the server ack for my nickchange before I update internal records…
  306. jonasw Ge0rG, so which name would you like to have?
  307. Ge0rG jonasw: want to document that in the Business Considerations?
  308. jonasw "MUC Self-Ping (Schrödinger’s Chat)"?
  309. jonasw ah, we have to wait for daniel anyways
  310. Ge0rG jonasw: I like the existing name and I'm sad that some Council members consider it silly.
  311. Dave 4) Outstanding Votes
  312. jonasw Ge0rG, for the record, I consider it silly (not in a bad way) and undiscoverable (bad) too
  313. Dave Ge0rG, I also consider the name silly. I'm just basically fine with that.
  314. Kev I would far prefer jonasw's suggestion.
  315. jonasw Dave, you have lost any ground to argue with "Bookmarks 2 (This time it’s serious)"
  316. Ge0rG I don't think having "Schrödinger's Chat" in parens will have the desired effect, so my only sane option is "MUC Self-Ping". But I demand a record of the rename in the changelog
  317. Dave So, outstanding - I think given the skip, everything has expired.
  318. Kev I don't mind silliness, but I think it's obsfucating here, and that's bad.
  319. Dave 5) Next Meeting
  320. Dave Next week, same time, same place?
  321. jonasw Dave, you have lost any right to argue since "Bookmarks 2 (This time it’s serious)"
  322. SamWhited wfm
  323. Kev *obfuscating
  324. Ge0rG Unless Sam and Kev would agree on "Schrödinger's Chat (MUC Self-Ping)", which would be my second best choice.
  325. Dave Kev, That's a fair point.
  326. Kev WFM
  327. jonasw Ge0rG, do it yourself then :)
  328. SamWhited bookmarks 2 still tells you what it does
  329. Ge0rG SamWhited: having numbers in titles is... not optimal.
  330. SamWhited please make 'MUC self ping' the first bit.
  331. jonasw hides behind Entity Capabilities 2.0
  332. Ge0rG we already have numbered namespaces.
  333. Dave coughs
  334. jonasw let’s not open this can of worms
  335. Dave Anyone any objections to next week?
  336. jonasw Ge0rG, you need to "wfm" next week
  337. Ge0rG +1W WFM
  338. Dave 6) AOB
  339. Dave ... Assuming none.
  340. SamWhited Nothing here.
  341. Ge0rG okay, so I'll go with "MUC Self-Ping (Schrödinger's Chat)" then.
  342. Dave 7) Ite, Meeting Est.
  343. Dave Thanks all.
  344. Ge0rG And use Bookmarks 2 as the precedent.
  345. Kev WFM
  346. Kev Thanks all.
  347. Ge0rG Thanks Dave. Thanks Tedd.
  348. SamWhited I can live with that.
  349. SamWhited thanks everyone
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