It looks like we won't get a formal Council Agenda Mail today, so I'd like to put https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/717 for a semi-formal opinion poll for today.
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Ge0rG
It's almost That Time again.
Ge0rG
Kev: do you happen to be sufficiently present to chair, in case Dave doesn't appear in time?
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Ge0rG
Hey dwd!
Ge0rG
Kev, SamWhited, daniel: Meeting time?
dwd
I'm reasonably convinced I'll have to vanish.
daniel
i’m here
dwd
But I'm here for now - really shouldn't chair though in case I'm called away. Ge0rG, want to do the honours?
Ge0rG
dwd: at your service.
Ge0rG
1) Roll Call
Ge0rG
looks like we have Daniel, Dave and me, so it might be a quorum until Dave vanishes.
dwd
Here. Actually meeting cancelled.
dwd
(I think).
Ge0rG
2) Lack of Agenda Bashing
SamWhited
oops, sorry, I"m here
Ge0rG
We don't have an Agenda, into which I tried to sneak https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/717 which failed horribly.
Ge0rG
We also don't have on our Agenda a list of expired Council votes that we should recast.
Ge0rG
Any other additions?
daniel
wait did you create an issue on github instead of just writing to the mailinglist?
daniel
i’m confused
Ge0rG
daniel: I fead I did, yes. But to my defense, I did write to standards@ half a year ago and didn't get an answer to the important question.
dwd
I think Ge0rG was hoping he could create an issue to create an agendum.
daniel
> I did write to standards@ half a year ago and didn't get an answer to the important question.
but that’s the norm for like 50% of the posts there :-)
Ge0rG
My train of thought was: create issue, obtain "needs council" tag, make Dave add it to the agenda, discuss today.
SamWhited
oh yah, if it only needs council then that was probably fine, I might have misunderstood
SamWhited
Then it really is just an issue for the editors (after seeking advise from us)
Ge0rG
SamWhited: no, you were right. I violently ignored due process.
daniel
ok but lets ignore how it got on the agenda and just pretend it did
Ge0rG
I'm not even sure I really want a formal vote on that or just feedback from you folks regarding the change I have in mind.
dwd
I can't find XEP-0283, it seems to have been moved.
Ge0rG
dwd: unfortunately the new address was lost when it was automatically removed from the roster.
daniel
i think a similiar question arised from the muc destroyed thing that has a new jid
Ge0rG
So it looks like we have no further items to add to the Agenda and implicitly moved to:
3) https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/717
daniel
that's in a way the same security question
Ge0rG
daniel: the answer there was "tombstones"
dwd
But jokes aside, I'd like to see a PR. My gut feeling is that it ought to be possible to satisfy the rationale in §4, while also satisfying automated [re]subscribing.
daniel
do i leave the old jid and join the new one
daniel
Ge0rG, right yeah. but the question is do i automatically join the new one
daniel
which i guess is kinda similiar to do i automatically switch over to the new jid
Ge0rG
dwd: to be honest, I don't quite understand the rationale in §4. It looks like a managed environment with auto-approval based on domains? Or is it actually the problem that the receiving client just blindly accepts whatever <moved/> is shoved up to them without checking with the new account?
Ge0rG
daniel: right.
dwd
Ge0rG, I think basically you're right. A poor implementation which is *too* trusting could certainly be abused. But it feels like limiting trust should give us a reasonable outcome.
Ge0rG
IMO, if you prove ownership of old-account and new-account by publishing cross-references on both, it should be enough proof for remote entities to automatically replace your JID
dwd
But... I'd like to see a PR. My gut feelings do not constitute advance acceptance. :-)
Ge0rG
the only attack vector left is _temporary_ control over an account. But I'd argue that if you take control over my account for a minute, it's compromised anyway
Ge0rG
What's the process? The XEP author submitted it in 2010 and I have no idea why it's even in Experimental still.
Ge0rG
Do we need to dig up Tory Patnoe?
dwd
There are use cases where the new account holder no longer has access to the old account, mind. But those ened to be manual.
jonas’
Ge0rG, make a PR
Ge0rG
dwd: yes, I'm not speaking of those.
dwd
Ah, no. Council can accept you as a new author. Would you like us to?
jonas’
the author will be pinged via mail and xmpp
jonas’
or council simply overrides it :)
Ge0rG
dwd: only after removing all the pseudo-security-issues cruft from it that I don't understand anyway.
Ge0rG
So I'll start with a PR and then we can speak about authorship
jonas’
Ge0rG, make a PR which does that and also puts you as author, then.
Ge0rG
jonas’: thanks
daniel
is this the right time to mention that i don’t like the mutual subscription thing xmpp has going on?
Ge0rG
daniel: yes.
SamWhited
Agreed.
jonas’
daniel, why, and what would you like to see insetad?✎
dwd
daniel, No. I'd like to hear about it, but not right now.
jonas’
daniel, why, and what would you like to see instead? ✏
Ge0rG
SamWhited: with what exactly do you agree?
Ge0rG
But I suppose dwd is right, we should move on with our (lack of) Agenda.
SamWhited
"i don’t like the mutual subcription thing xmpp has going on"
daniel
anyway lets move on
SamWhited
(I promise I was paying attention to the discussion before that, I just don't have much of an opinion one way or the other on moved)
daniel
should we give Ge0rG ownership of that xep
Ge0rG
Unless I hear objections from Sam or Daniel now on allowing automatic JID replacement in 0283, I'll put a PR on my todo
SamWhited
I'd like to see a PR. I do have a feeling that changing it so that some other server can force your server to make new S2S connections might be bad somehow.
SamWhited
But I can't actually think of any problem, it just feels odd for me to be able to tell something to connect to something else.
Ge0rG
SamWhited: that's interesting, I'll consider that
Ge0rG
SamWhited: I suppose you shouldn't simply connect on a <moved new/> but wait for a ping from the new account
Ge0rG
But as multiple servers are involved, this is prone to race conditions, so the protocol must be bullet-proof in that
daniel
yeah i have too much of a headache right now to actually think through the consequences but I'm ok with allowing Ge0rG to make a PR and/or take ownership of a 8 year old xep
Ge0rG
Yay!
Ge0rG
4) AOB
SamWhited
Me too; it was election night here last night so I was up until 0200 refreshing various news sources compulsively…
SamWhited
So I may be a bit foggy today :)
Ge0rG
We have another election night on 2018-11-22, and I'd *love* to get rid of the many "EXPIRED"s in the SoD.
jonas’
many of the EXPIREDs are not up for revoting though
jonas’
some of them are VETOED
Ge0rG
somebody with a bit of a time budget and RW permissions needs to review the votes.
jonas’
*sigh*
Ge0rG
And it looks like everybody here lacks both.
jonas’
dwd, I’ll request +w on the SoD now
dwd
At the moment, though I might do before the next meeting.
jonas’
sYdCst5Woy
dwd
Gosh, that was incomprehensible, sorry.
dwd
jonas’, Best change that password.
SamWhited
I'm trying to find mine now; I could have sworn I voted on some of these.
jonas’
dwd, it’s a token I put in my request to get +w
Ge0rG
Mind that recasting the votes will give everybody +2W of on-list time, so we will be into the next Council if we don't get our votes together on 21st
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dwd
I meant to say: I don't have the time right now, but I might get the time together before the next meeting.
dwd
Tedd Sterr did actually collate all the votes for me to put in there.
jonas’
dwd, hand me +w, I might have a slot tomorrow night where I can review at least some of them
Ge0rG
dwd: maybe you could give Tedd +w then?
Ge0rG
dwd: I don't want to push you into committing to anything, but it would be really great to have that list cleaned up in time for our next Agenda.
SamWhited
I was -1 on file sharing notifications at least, so far those are the only minutes I can find (XMPP Council Minutes 2018-08-01).
SamWhited
I'll wait if there are others to be added though in case some of the ones I'm looking for are already in Ted's list.
Ge0rG
Maybe everyone from Council can try to aggregate their missing votes until end of this week, then?
Ge0rG
We've got only 1.5min left, and I still have two Agenda items open.
Ge0rG
So I'm moving on for now.
Ge0rG
5) AOAOB
Ge0rG
6) Next Meeting
does +1W work for you?
daniel
can someone give me a link to that spreadsheet so i know what to vote on