XMPP Council - 2018-11-07

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  25. Ge0rG It looks like we won't get a formal Council Agenda Mail today, so I'd like to put https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/717 for a semi-formal opinion poll for today.
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  69. Ge0rG It's almost That Time again.
  70. Ge0rG Kev: do you happen to be sufficiently present to chair, in case Dave doesn't appear in time?
  71. dwd has joined
  72. Ge0rG Hey dwd!
  73. Ge0rG Kev, SamWhited, daniel: Meeting time?
  74. dwd I'm reasonably convinced I'll have to vanish.
  75. daniel i’m here
  76. dwd But I'm here for now - really shouldn't chair though in case I'm called away. Ge0rG, want to do the honours?
  77. Ge0rG dwd: at your service.
  78. Ge0rG 1) Roll Call
  79. Ge0rG looks like we have Daniel, Dave and me, so it might be a quorum until Dave vanishes.
  80. dwd Here. Actually meeting cancelled.
  81. dwd (I think).
  82. Ge0rG 2) Lack of Agenda Bashing
  83. SamWhited oops, sorry, I"m here
  84. Ge0rG We don't have an Agenda, into which I tried to sneak https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/717 which failed horribly.
  85. Ge0rG We also don't have on our Agenda a list of expired Council votes that we should recast.
  86. Ge0rG Any other additions?
  87. daniel wait did you create an issue on github instead of just writing to the mailinglist?
  88. daniel i’m confused
  89. Ge0rG daniel: I fead I did, yes. But to my defense, I did write to standards@ half a year ago and didn't get an answer to the important question.
  90. dwd I think Ge0rG was hoping he could create an issue to create an agendum.
  91. daniel > I did write to standards@ half a year ago and didn't get an answer to the important question. but that’s the norm for like 50% of the posts there :-)
  92. Ge0rG My train of thought was: create issue, obtain "needs council" tag, make Dave add it to the agenda, discuss today.
  93. SamWhited oh yah, if it only needs council then that was probably fine, I might have misunderstood
  94. SamWhited Then it really is just an issue for the editors (after seeking advise from us)
  95. Ge0rG SamWhited: no, you were right. I violently ignored due process.
  96. daniel ok but lets ignore how it got on the agenda and just pretend it did
  97. Ge0rG I'm not even sure I really want a formal vote on that or just feedback from you folks regarding the change I have in mind.
  98. dwd I can't find XEP-0283, it seems to have been moved.
  99. Ge0rG dwd: unfortunately the new address was lost when it was automatically removed from the roster.
  100. daniel i think a similiar question arised from the muc destroyed thing that has a new jid
  101. Ge0rG So it looks like we have no further items to add to the Agenda and implicitly moved to: 3) https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/717
  102. daniel that's in a way the same security question
  103. Ge0rG daniel: the answer there was "tombstones"
  104. dwd But jokes aside, I'd like to see a PR. My gut feeling is that it ought to be possible to satisfy the rationale in §4, while also satisfying automated [re]subscribing.
  105. daniel do i leave the old jid and join the new one
  106. daniel Ge0rG, right yeah. but the question is do i automatically join the new one
  107. daniel which i guess is kinda similiar to do i automatically switch over to the new jid
  108. Ge0rG dwd: to be honest, I don't quite understand the rationale in §4. It looks like a managed environment with auto-approval based on domains? Or is it actually the problem that the receiving client just blindly accepts whatever <moved/> is shoved up to them without checking with the new account?
  109. Ge0rG daniel: right.
  110. dwd Ge0rG, I think basically you're right. A poor implementation which is *too* trusting could certainly be abused. But it feels like limiting trust should give us a reasonable outcome.
  111. Ge0rG IMO, if you prove ownership of old-account and new-account by publishing cross-references on both, it should be enough proof for remote entities to automatically replace your JID
  112. dwd But... I'd like to see a PR. My gut feelings do not constitute advance acceptance. :-)
  113. Ge0rG the only attack vector left is _temporary_ control over an account. But I'd argue that if you take control over my account for a minute, it's compromised anyway
  114. Ge0rG What's the process? The XEP author submitted it in 2010 and I have no idea why it's even in Experimental still.
  115. Ge0rG Do we need to dig up Tory Patnoe?
  116. dwd There are use cases where the new account holder no longer has access to the old account, mind. But those ened to be manual.
  117. jonas’ Ge0rG, make a PR
  118. Ge0rG dwd: yes, I'm not speaking of those.
  119. dwd Ah, no. Council can accept you as a new author. Would you like us to?
  120. jonas’ the author will be pinged via mail and xmpp
  121. jonas’ or council simply overrides it :)
  122. Ge0rG dwd: only after removing all the pseudo-security-issues cruft from it that I don't understand anyway.
  123. Ge0rG So I'll start with a PR and then we can speak about authorship
  124. jonas’ Ge0rG, make a PR which does that and also puts you as author, then.
  125. Ge0rG jonas’: thanks
  126. daniel is this the right time to mention that i don’t like the mutual subscription thing xmpp has going on?
  127. Ge0rG daniel: yes.
  128. SamWhited Agreed.
  129. jonas’ daniel, why, and what would you like to see insetad?
  130. dwd daniel, No. I'd like to hear about it, but not right now.
  131. jonas’ daniel, why, and what would you like to see instead?
  132. Ge0rG SamWhited: with what exactly do you agree?
  133. Ge0rG But I suppose dwd is right, we should move on with our (lack of) Agenda.
  134. SamWhited "i don’t like the mutual subcription thing xmpp has going on"
  135. daniel anyway lets move on
  136. SamWhited (I promise I was paying attention to the discussion before that, I just don't have much of an opinion one way or the other on moved)
  137. daniel should we give Ge0rG ownership of that xep
  138. Ge0rG Unless I hear objections from Sam or Daniel now on allowing automatic JID replacement in 0283, I'll put a PR on my todo
  139. SamWhited I'd like to see a PR. I do have a feeling that changing it so that some other server can force your server to make new S2S connections might be bad somehow.
  140. SamWhited But I can't actually think of any problem, it just feels odd for me to be able to tell something to connect to something else.
  141. Ge0rG SamWhited: that's interesting, I'll consider that
  142. Ge0rG SamWhited: I suppose you shouldn't simply connect on a <moved new/> but wait for a ping from the new account
  143. Ge0rG But as multiple servers are involved, this is prone to race conditions, so the protocol must be bullet-proof in that
  144. daniel yeah i have too much of a headache right now to actually think through the consequences but I'm ok with allowing Ge0rG to make a PR and/or take ownership of a 8 year old xep
  145. Ge0rG Yay!
  146. Ge0rG 4) AOB
  147. SamWhited Me too; it was election night here last night so I was up until 0200 refreshing various news sources compulsively…
  148. SamWhited So I may be a bit foggy today :)
  149. Ge0rG We have another election night on 2018-11-22, and I'd *love* to get rid of the many "EXPIRED"s in the SoD.
  150. jonas’ many of the EXPIREDs are not up for revoting though
  151. jonas’ some of them are VETOED
  152. Ge0rG somebody with a bit of a time budget and RW permissions needs to review the votes.
  153. jonas’ *sigh*
  154. Ge0rG And it looks like everybody here lacks both.
  155. jonas’ dwd, I’ll request +w on the SoD now
  156. dwd At the moment, though I might do before the next meeting.
  157. jonas’ sYdCst5Woy
  158. dwd Gosh, that was incomprehensible, sorry.
  159. dwd jonas’, Best change that password.
  160. SamWhited I'm trying to find mine now; I could have sworn I voted on some of these.
  161. jonas’ dwd, it’s a token I put in my request to get +w
  162. Ge0rG Mind that recasting the votes will give everybody +2W of on-list time, so we will be into the next Council if we don't get our votes together on 21st
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  164. dwd I meant to say: I don't have the time right now, but I might get the time together before the next meeting.
  165. dwd Tedd Sterr did actually collate all the votes for me to put in there.
  166. jonas’ dwd, hand me +w, I might have a slot tomorrow night where I can review at least some of them
  167. Ge0rG dwd: maybe you could give Tedd +w then?
  168. Ge0rG dwd: I don't want to push you into committing to anything, but it would be really great to have that list cleaned up in time for our next Agenda.
  169. SamWhited I was -1 on file sharing notifications at least, so far those are the only minutes I can find (XMPP Council Minutes 2018-08-01).
  170. SamWhited I'll wait if there are others to be added though in case some of the ones I'm looking for are already in Ted's list.
  171. Ge0rG Maybe everyone from Council can try to aggregate their missing votes until end of this week, then?
  172. Ge0rG We've got only 1.5min left, and I still have two Agenda items open.
  173. Ge0rG So I'm moving on for now.
  174. Ge0rG 5) AOAOB
  175. Ge0rG 6) Next Meeting does +1W work for you?
  176. daniel can someone give me a link to that spreadsheet so i know what to vote on
  177. SamWhited WFM
  178. Ge0rG daniel: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AZ-Sna6OiRG--b-mJMKv3XXfrn3Nehm0kAtlyJvImL0/edit#gid=0
  179. daniel i probably can’t do next week
  180. daniel thanks
  181. Ge0rG Looks like we lost Dave.
  182. Ge0rG 7) Close
  183. Ge0rG Thanks everyone! Let's hope +1W works out :)
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  185. jonas’ dwd, thanks, that worked
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