XMPP Council - 2018-11-14

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  11. jonas’

    Ge0rG, do you still agree with MattJ’s assessment after the recent update?

  12. Ge0rG

    jonas’: from a skim of the XEP, it looks like it's still relying on MUC message semantics

  13. jonas’

    huh, ok

  14. Ge0rG

    jonas’: unless there was another update since yesterday

  15. jonas’

    not that I knew

  16. Ge0rG

    So I'm torn between documenting a hack that works, more or less, and got implemented because somebody wanted pictures on a MUC, and doing it right.

  17. Ge0rG

    AFAIR, all avatar XEPs have drawbacks, and there's no really good specification.

  18. jonas’


  19. jonas’

    the PEP-based avatars for users seem to work rather okay, except that they don’t allow for multiple different MIME types in pubsub.

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  21. Zash

    Let's allow that then?

  22. Ge0rG

    Let's have multiple nodes, each with multiple items!

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  26. Zash

    Or multiple items in both nodes with whatever

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  66. Ge0rG

    I'm on mobile today, so semi present. Can't chair, but will try to swipe fast enough

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  68. Kev

    'tis time, 'tis time.

  69. Kev

    Daniel's the only one who can't today, I think, from the last minutes.

  70. SamWhited


  71. Kev

    Do we have a Dave?

  72. Ge0rG

    Kev: you are chairing?

  73. Kev

    I can if Dave's not here.

  74. Ge0rG

    My train is delayed, and I'm in it

  75. Kev

    1) Roll cal

  76. Kev

    1) Roll call

  77. Ge0rG

  78. Kev

    I'm here, Sam, Ge0rG. Daniel apologies, I think Dave's missing.

  79. Kev

    Sorry, I was desperately trying to close off my last meeting.

  80. Kev

    Fully here now.

  81. Kev

    2) Agenda

  82. Kev

    Ted sent out a bunch of suggestions around LC items.

  83. Kev

    Tedd sent out a bunch of suggestions around LC items.

  84. Kev

    Rather than going through them now, I think it'd be more effective if we agreed to give feedback to each on-list in the relevant threads.

  85. Kev

    What do people feel about that?

  86. Kev

    And to then have a concrete vote on each last week, with a 1-week timeout instead of the normal 2-week.

  87. Kev

    And to then have a concrete vote on each next week, with a 1-week timeout instead of the normal 2-week.

  88. jonas’

    next week is too late.

  89. Kev

    (On the basis that last week is our last chance this term)

  90. jonas’

    (for a vote with 1w timeout?)

  91. SamWhited

    That seems reasonable to me; as long as we don't let them roll over to the next term which always means they're forgotten about.

  92. Ge0rG

    Isn't that our last week with a 1 week timeout?

  93. Kev

    Ah, is my timing a week out?

  94. jonas’

    the 22nd is next week, thursday

  95. Kev

    Yes, I think you're right.

  96. Kev

    Ok, in that case I suggest exactly the same plan but s/1w/1d/

  97. Ge0rG

    What about voting today with 1w instead mm

  98. Ge0rG

    What about voting today with 1w instead?

  99. Ge0rG

    We still end up with 1 week for on-list

  100. Kev

    Ge0rG: My preference is always having a live discussion here to kick things off, but am not opposed if that's what people want.

  101. Ge0rG

    We had two weeks for a list discussion

  102. SamWhited

    We can always have a live discussion, but we might as well get the voting started so that we're not pushed for time

  103. Kev

    Yeah, but we sucked.

  104. Ge0rG

    Kev: do you think another week is going to change that?

  105. Kev

    Ok, that's 2:1 in favour of starting now with 1w expiry, so I'm ok with that. Can we make that 1w+1d?

  106. Kev

    So the voting period ends with the end of term.

  107. SamWhited

    Sounds good to me

  108. Ge0rG

    8d is okay

  109. Kev


  110. Kev

    3) https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0357.html Advance to Draft?

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  113. Kev

    I'm on-list or next meeting.

  114. SamWhited

    I'm on-list. Re-reading this one I just don't think I have the necessary background knowledge to really have a good opinion.

  115. Ge0rG

    -1 because the high priority topic hasn't been addressed. I liked the stripped stanza proposal very much.

  116. Kev

    I'm very much in favour of allowing pushing the real data through, BTW.

  117. Ge0rG

    The current XEP is much better than half a year ago, but the feedback from the list last August wasn't addressed

  118. Kev

    Privacy is needed to be supported, but it's also useful to allow users/deployments to make the tradeoff of utility vs. privacy.

  119. Ge0rG

    Kev: a tri-state of none / stripped / full will make that possible

  120. Kev


  121. Ge0rG

    Was suggested some months ago

  122. Kev

    I'm aware I'm the caretaker of 357, so I probably need to put the time in here.

  123. Kev

    Goodness knows what time, but I shall try.

  124. SamWhited

    That seems overly complicated to me, but I am for allowing data

  125. Kev

    4) https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0359.html Advance to Draft?

  126. Ge0rG

    The current status quo of hard coding "you have a new message" into the server module config is... non-ideal

  127. Ge0rG

    I've submitted some feedback to 0359 yesterday, and would like to see it addressed, but won't block it on that matter. +0 without a change or +1 if it's properly addressed

  128. Kev

    I'm list/next meeting on this as well.

  129. SamWhited

    I'm on-list for this one as well

  130. Kev

    5) https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/692

  131. Kev

    I am, again, onlist/next meeting.

  132. SamWhited


  133. Ge0rG


  134. Kev

    6) https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/693

  135. Kev


  136. Ge0rG


  137. Ge0rG

    This is so productive MC

  138. SamWhited

    +0; pub-sub is something that I just don't feel confident enough with to review it no matter how many times I re-read it.

  139. Ge0rG

    This is so productive!

  140. Kev

    7) https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/715

  141. Kev


  142. Ge0rG


  143. SamWhited


  144. Kev

    8) https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/716 https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2018-November/035434.html

  145. Kev


  146. Ge0rG

    It's asking for discussing, right?

  147. jonas’

    discussion didn’t happen

  148. jonas’

    council needs to make a decision

  149. Ge0rG

    Currently, the examples in the XEP are missing the feature, right?

  150. jonas’

    are you talking about #715 or #716?

  151. SamWhited

    -1; I agree that it's weird to always include it even though it's obvious that it's supported, but I don't see the need to modify a final XEP and add optional behavior. My recommendation to implementations is to just follow the standard as its written, weird quirk and all, and if you need to check disco support make this assumption yourself.

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  153. jonas’

    that’s the most sensible word I heard about that so far, SamWhited :-)

  154. SamWhited

    I apologize for not replying to the list about this; I meant to do so earlier.

  155. Ge0rG

    Will accepting 715 make the examples consistent with the standard and include the feature everywhere?

  156. jonas’

    Ge0rG, the former, yes. the latter, haven’t checked.

  157. Ge0rG

    ...and increase the number of examples where it's included?

  158. jonas’


  159. jonas’

    if it is councils wish that the feature shall be in every disco#info/disco#items example in that XEP, I can do that upon merge.

  160. jonas’


  161. Kev

    I need to catch up, but I'm not keen on making any non-vital changes to 30.

  162. Kev

    Or any substantial non-vital changes.

  163. SamWhited

    Indeed; even in the state we're in today where everything ignores this, it's probably not going to break anything as is.

  164. Ge0rG

    I'm not sure we need to have it in all examples of all XEPs, I'd rather add a note to 0030 that the feature might not be present in *examples* but needs to be implemented

  165. SamWhited

    A little non-normative note seems reasonable.

  166. Ge0rG

    Yes, and it wouldn't change the normative text.

  167. SamWhited

    Although I don't think it's necessary either, but that would probably be for the next council to decide.

  168. Ge0rG

    So it's an editorial change.

  169. Ge0rG

    I don't see the need to hunt all XEPs for compliance

  170. SamWhited

    That's true, I'd be happy for the editors to just make that change

  171. Kev

    Sounds like time to move along, to me?

  172. SamWhited


  173. Kev

    9) Date of next

  174. Kev


  175. SamWhited


  176. jonas’

    Ge0rG, SamWhited, please propose wording.

  177. Ge0rG

    jonas’: can you remind me tomorrow around noon?

  178. jonas’

    Ge0rG, not really

  179. Ge0rG

    +1W WFM

  180. pep.

    /send_delayed "tomorrow around noon" poke Ge0rG

  181. Kev

    10) Yay, double-figures. AOB?

  182. SamWhited

    "Note that this may be omitted in examples in the XEP series"

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  184. SamWhited

    s/may/is sometimes/

  185. Ge0rG

    Kev: did we have any expired votes to recast?

  186. Ge0rG

    Open votes from last week?

  187. Kev

    https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/717 Is the only open one from last week, I think.

  188. Ge0rG

    SamWhited: s/this/the disco#info feature /

  189. jonas’

    I think the expired stuff was already covered

  190. Kev

    (And which I need to deal with)

  191. Kev

    The expired stuff is what Tedd put on the agenda, I believe. I've not checked the SoD to verify.

  192. Ge0rG

    I have started working on the Moved XEP but it turned out to be a huge mess, implementation wise.

  193. Ge0rG

    There's a rendered version of a preliminary proposal on my private server, but nothing official yet. Will submit it to the next council

  194. Kev


  195. Ge0rG

    The only reasonable way I see is to use messages instead of presence, but I'm not clear yet whether we need messages from the old account or from both

  196. Kev

    Moved is a bit of a nightmare if you want to do anything automatically because you need your server to also do things automatically (like link MAM archives) and all sorts of horrors follow from entities causing your archive to be rewritten.

  197. Kev


  198. SamWhited

    none here

  199. Kev

    I'm hearing a silence of 'no'.

  200. jonas’


  201. Kev

    So, thanks all.

  202. Kev


  203. SamWhited


  204. Ge0rG

    Kev: we can solve Moved with a permanent roster annotation

  205. Ge0rG

    Is there precedent for roster annotations?

  206. Kev

    Ge0rG: I find your ideas intruiging and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

  207. Kev

    Ge0rG: I find your ideas intriguing and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

  208. jonas’

    Ge0rG, MIX.

  209. jonas’

    and it’s a horrible precendent, IMO.

  210. Ge0rG

    Kev: you can rent my services at only 180€/hr... 😢

  211. Ge0rG

    Yes, MIX is a mess.

  212. Ge0rG

    But a Moved message will only be retained for so long, if at all.

  213. jonas’

    (I’m not saying the concept of roster annotations is a horrible precedent, but that particular implementation is)

  214. Ge0rG

    If you have MAM=contacts, and the old JID is removed, will your server purge the Moved message?

  215. jonas’

    probably not

  216. jonas’

    would be terrible if it did

  217. jonas’

    both for how MAM works, and for users

  218. Ge0rG

    Did I mention that implementing Moved on top of real life XMPP is a mess mm

  219. Ge0rG

    Did I mention that implementing Moved on top of real life XMPP is a mess?

  220. Kev

    FWIW, roster annotations have been a thing we've been discussing for well over a decade.

  221. Kev

    MIX is just the first time we had a concrete use for them.

  222. Ge0rG

    Kev: but it never happened?

  223. Ge0rG

    Moved would be a concrete use case.

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  225. jonas’

    IMO, the easierst for both clients and servers would be a namespaced element within the roster <item/>

  226. Ge0rG

    A PEP tombstone would be another possibility, but less flexible

  227. jonas’

    (regarding the general concept of roster annotation?)

  228. Ge0rG

    jonas’: that would be a roster annotation, right?

  229. jonas’

    (regarding the general concept of roster annotations)

  230. jonas’

    Ge0rG, yes, that’s my point (just clarifying; I understand you’re probably behind latency)

  231. Ge0rG

    jonas’: and I'm approaching the next coverage hole. Also typing on a touch screen

  232. jonas’

    good luck

  233. Ge0rG

    Thanks. Looks like I survived the meeting well enough at least

  234. jonas’

    also, xsf@ maybe.

  235. Ge0rG

    If implementing roster annotations takes as long as persistent PEP, I'm out.

  236. jonas’

    shouldn’t be as hard

  237. Ge0rG

    Not sure it's about being hard.

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