jonas’Ge0rG, do you still agree with MattJ’s assessment after the recent update?
Ge0rGjonas’: from a skim of the XEP, it looks like it's still relying on MUC message semantics
jonas’huh, ok
Ge0rGjonas’: unless there was another update since yesterday
jonas’not that I knew
Ge0rGSo I'm torn between documenting a hack that works, more or less, and got implemented because somebody wanted pictures on a MUC, and doing it right.
Ge0rGAFAIR, all avatar XEPs have drawbacks, and there's no really good specification.
jonas’yes
jonas’the PEP-based avatars for users seem to work rather okay, except that they don’t allow for multiple different MIME types in pubsub.
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ZashLet's allow that then?
Ge0rGLet's have multiple nodes, each with multiple items!
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ZashOr multiple items in both nodes with whatever
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Ge0rGI'm on mobile today, so semi present. Can't chair, but will try to swipe fast enough
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Kev'tis time, 'tis time.
KevDaniel's the only one who can't today, I think, from the last minutes.
SamWhitedo/
KevDo we have a Dave?
Ge0rGKev: you are chairing?
KevI can if Dave's not here.
Ge0rGMy train is delayed, and I'm in it
Kev1) Roll cal
Kev1) Roll call
Ge0rG
KevI'm here, Sam, Ge0rG. Daniel apologies, I think Dave's missing.
KevSorry, I was desperately trying to close off my last meeting.
KevFully here now.
Kev2) Agenda
KevTed sent out a bunch of suggestions around LC items.
KevTedd sent out a bunch of suggestions around LC items.
KevRather than going through them now, I think it'd be more effective if we agreed to give feedback to each on-list in the relevant threads.
KevWhat do people feel about that?
KevAnd to then have a concrete vote on each last week, with a 1-week timeout instead of the normal 2-week.
KevAnd to then have a concrete vote on each next week, with a 1-week timeout instead of the normal 2-week.
jonas’next week is too late.
Kev(On the basis that last week is our last chance this term)
jonas’(for a vote with 1w timeout?)
SamWhitedThat seems reasonable to me; as long as we don't let them roll over to the next term which always means they're forgotten about.
Ge0rGIsn't that our last week with a 1 week timeout?
KevAh, is my timing a week out?
jonas’the 22nd is next week, thursday
KevYes, I think you're right.
KevOk, in that case I suggest exactly the same plan but s/1w/1d/
Ge0rGWhat about voting today with 1w instead mm
Ge0rGWhat about voting today with 1w instead?
Ge0rGWe still end up with 1 week for on-list
KevGe0rG: My preference is always having a live discussion here to kick things off, but am not opposed if that's what people want.
Ge0rGWe had two weeks for a list discussion
SamWhitedWe can always have a live discussion, but we might as well get the voting started so that we're not pushed for time
KevYeah, but we sucked.
Ge0rGKev: do you think another week is going to change that?
KevOk, that's 2:1 in favour of starting now with 1w expiry, so I'm ok with that. Can we make that 1w+1d?
KevSo the voting period ends with the end of term.
SamWhitedSounds good to me
Ge0rG8d is okay
KevCool.
Kev3) https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0357.html
Advance to Draft?
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KevI'm on-list or next meeting.
SamWhitedI'm on-list. Re-reading this one I just don't think I have the necessary background knowledge to really have a good opinion.
Ge0rG-1 because the high priority topic hasn't been addressed. I liked the stripped stanza proposal very much.
KevI'm very much in favour of allowing pushing the real data through, BTW.
Ge0rGThe current XEP is much better than half a year ago, but the feedback from the list last August wasn't addressed
KevPrivacy is needed to be supported, but it's also useful to allow users/deployments to make the tradeoff of utility vs. privacy.
Ge0rGKev: a tri-state of none / stripped / full will make that possible
KevYes.
Ge0rGWas suggested some months ago
KevI'm aware I'm the caretaker of 357, so I probably need to put the time in here.
KevGoodness knows what time, but I shall try.
SamWhitedThat seems overly complicated to me, but I am for allowing data
Kev4) https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0359.html
Advance to Draft?
Ge0rGThe current status quo of hard coding "you have a new message" into the server module config is... non-ideal
Ge0rGI've submitted some feedback to 0359 yesterday, and would like to see it addressed, but won't block it on that matter. +0 without a change or +1 if it's properly addressed
KevI'm list/next meeting on this as well.
SamWhitedI'm on-list for this one as well
Kev5) https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/692
KevI am, again, onlist/next meeting.
SamWhited+0
Ge0rGon-list
Kev6) https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/693
KevOL/NM
Ge0rGon-list
Ge0rGThis is so productive MC
SamWhited+0; pub-sub is something that I just don't feel confident enough with to review it no matter how many times I re-read it.
Ge0rGCurrently, the examples in the XEP are missing the feature, right?
jonas’are you talking about #715 or #716?
SamWhited-1; I agree that it's weird to always include it even though it's obvious that it's supported, but I don't see the need to modify a final XEP and add optional behavior. My recommendation to implementations is to just follow the standard as its written, weird quirk and all, and if you need to check disco support make this assumption yourself.
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jonas’that’s the most sensible word I heard about that so far, SamWhited :-)
SamWhitedI apologize for not replying to the list about this; I meant to do so earlier.
Ge0rGWill accepting 715 make the examples consistent with the standard and include the feature everywhere?
jonas’Ge0rG, the former, yes. the latter, haven’t checked.
Ge0rG...and increase the number of examples where it's included?
jonas’yes.
jonas’if it is councils wish that the feature shall be in every disco#info/disco#items example in that XEP, I can do that upon merge.
jonas’s/do/ensure/
KevI need to catch up, but I'm not keen on making any non-vital changes to 30.
KevOr any substantial non-vital changes.
SamWhitedIndeed; even in the state we're in today where everything ignores this, it's probably not going to break anything as is.
Ge0rGI'm not sure we need to have it in all examples of all XEPs, I'd rather add a note to 0030 that the feature might not be present in *examples* but needs to be implemented
SamWhitedA little non-normative note seems reasonable.
Ge0rGYes, and it wouldn't change the normative text.
SamWhitedAlthough I don't think it's necessary either, but that would probably be for the next council to decide.
Ge0rGSo it's an editorial change.
Ge0rGI don't see the need to hunt all XEPs for compliance
SamWhitedThat's true, I'd be happy for the editors to just make that change
KevSounds like time to move along, to me?
SamWhited*nods*
Kev9) Date of next
KevSBTSBC?
SamWhitedWFM
jonas’Ge0rG, SamWhited, please propose wording.
Ge0rGjonas’: can you remind me tomorrow around noon?
jonas’Ge0rG, not really
Ge0rG+1W WFM
pep./send_delayed "tomorrow around noon" poke Ge0rG
Kev10) Yay, double-figures. AOB?
SamWhited"Note that this may be omitted in examples in the XEP series"
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SamWhiteds/may/is sometimes/
Ge0rGKev: did we have any expired votes to recast?
Ge0rGOpen votes from last week?
Kevhttps://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/717
Is the only open one from last week, I think.
Ge0rGSamWhited: s/this/the disco#info feature /
jonas’I think the expired stuff was already covered
Kev(And which I need to deal with)
KevThe expired stuff is what Tedd put on the agenda, I believe. I've not checked the SoD to verify.
Ge0rGI have started working on the Moved XEP but it turned out to be a huge mess, implementation wise.
Ge0rGThere's a rendered version of a preliminary proposal on my private server, but nothing official yet. Will submit it to the next council
KevThanks.
Ge0rGThe only reasonable way I see is to use messages instead of presence, but I'm not clear yet whether we need messages from the old account or from both
KevMoved is a bit of a nightmare if you want to do anything automatically because you need your server to also do things automatically (like link MAM archives) and all sorts of horrors follow from entities causing your archive to be rewritten.
KevAOAOB?
SamWhitednone here
KevI'm hearing a silence of 'no'.
jonas’-
KevSo, thanks all.
Kev<<EOF
SamWhitedThanks
Ge0rGKev: we can solve Moved with a permanent roster annotation
Ge0rGIs there precedent for roster annotations?
KevGe0rG: I find your ideas intruiging and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
KevGe0rG: I find your ideas intriguing and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
jonas’Ge0rG, MIX.
jonas’and it’s a horrible precendent, IMO.
Ge0rGKev: you can rent my services at only 180€/hr... 😢
Ge0rGYes, MIX is a mess.
Ge0rGBut a Moved message will only be retained for so long, if at all.
jonas’(I’m not saying the concept of roster annotations is a horrible precedent, but that particular implementation is)
Ge0rGIf you have MAM=contacts, and the old JID is removed, will your server purge the Moved message?
jonas’probably not
jonas’would be terrible if it did
jonas’both for how MAM works, and for users
Ge0rGDid I mention that implementing Moved on top of real life XMPP is a mess mm
Ge0rGDid I mention that implementing Moved on top of real life XMPP is a mess?
KevFWIW, roster annotations have been a thing we've been discussing for well over a decade.
KevMIX is just the first time we had a concrete use for them.
Ge0rGKev: but it never happened?
Ge0rGMoved would be a concrete use case.
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jonas’IMO, the easierst for both clients and servers would be a namespaced element within the roster <item/>
Ge0rGA PEP tombstone would be another possibility, but less flexible
jonas’(regarding the general concept of roster annotation?)
Ge0rGjonas’: that would be a roster annotation, right?
jonas’(regarding the general concept of roster annotations)
jonas’Ge0rG, yes, that’s my point (just clarifying; I understand you’re probably behind latency)
Ge0rGjonas’: and I'm approaching the next coverage hole. Also typing on a touch screen
jonas’good luck
Ge0rGThanks. Looks like I survived the meeting well enough at least
jonas’also, xsf@ maybe.
Ge0rGIf implementing roster annotations takes as long as persistent PEP, I'm out.