XMPP Council - 2018-11-14

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07:02:44 jonas’ Ge0rG, do you still agree with MattJ’s assessment after the recent update?
07:03:52 Ge0rG jonas’: from a skim of the XEP, it looks like it's still relying on MUC message semantics
07:04:47 jonas’ huh, ok
07:04:52 Ge0rG jonas’: unless there was another update since yesterday
07:04:56 jonas’ not that I knew
07:08:02 Ge0rG So I'm torn between documenting a hack that works, more or less, and got implemented because somebody wanted pictures on a MUC, and doing it right.
07:11:22 Ge0rG AFAIR, all avatar XEPs have drawbacks, and there's no really good specification.
07:12:58 jonas’ yes
07:13:35 jonas’ the PEP-based avatars for users seem to work rather okay, except that they don’t allow for multiple different MIME types in pubsub.
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07:21:54 Zash Let's allow that then?
07:30:57 Ge0rG Let's have multiple nodes, each with multiple items!
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07:37:24 Zash Or multiple items in both nodes with whatever
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15:50:22 Ge0rG I'm on mobile today, so semi present. Can't chair, but will try to swipe fast enough
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16:00:18 Kev 'tis time, 'tis time.
16:01:26 Kev Daniel's the only one who can't today, I think, from the last minutes.
16:01:52 SamWhited o/
16:01:52 Kev Do we have a Dave?
16:01:57 Ge0rG Kev: you are chairing?
16:02:34 Kev I can if Dave's not here.
16:03:01 Ge0rG My train is delayed, and I'm in it
16:03:47 Kev 1) Roll cal
16:03:50 Kev 1) Roll call
16:03:58 Ge0rG
16:04:07 Kev I'm here, Sam, Ge0rG. Daniel apologies, I think Dave's missing.
16:06:02 Kev Sorry, I was desperately trying to close off my last meeting.
16:06:03 Kev Fully here now.
16:06:09 Kev 2) Agenda
16:06:18 Kev Ted sent out a bunch of suggestions around LC items.
16:06:26 Kev Tedd sent out a bunch of suggestions around LC items.
16:06:53 Kev Rather than going through them now, I think it'd be more effective if we agreed to give feedback to each on-list in the relevant threads.
16:06:57 Kev What do people feel about that?
16:07:17 Kev And to then have a concrete vote on each last week, with a 1-week timeout instead of the normal 2-week.
16:07:26 Kev And to then have a concrete vote on each next week, with a 1-week timeout instead of the normal 2-week.
16:07:34 jonas’ next week is too late.
16:07:34 Kev (On the basis that last week is our last chance this term)
16:07:40 jonas’ (for a vote with 1w timeout?)
16:07:44 SamWhited That seems reasonable to me; as long as we don't let them roll over to the next term which always means they're forgotten about.
16:07:50 Ge0rG Isn't that our last week with a 1 week timeout?
16:07:54 Kev Ah, is my timing a week out?
16:08:03 jonas’ the 22nd is next week, thursday
16:08:05 Kev Yes, I think you're right.
16:08:15 Kev Ok, in that case I suggest exactly the same plan but s/1w/1d/
16:08:29 Ge0rG What about voting today with 1w instead mm
16:08:37 Ge0rG What about voting today with 1w instead?
16:08:52 Ge0rG We still end up with 1 week for on-list
16:08:57 Kev Ge0rG: My preference is always having a live discussion here to kick things off, but am not opposed if that's what people want.
16:09:18 Ge0rG We had two weeks for a list discussion
16:09:23 SamWhited We can always have a live discussion, but we might as well get the voting started so that we're not pushed for time
16:09:24 Kev Yeah, but we sucked.
16:09:43 Ge0rG Kev: do you think another week is going to change that?
16:09:46 Kev Ok, that's 2:1 in favour of starting now with 1w expiry, so I'm ok with that. Can we make that 1w+1d?
16:09:56 Kev So the voting period ends with the end of term.
16:09:56 SamWhited Sounds good to me
16:09:56 Ge0rG 8d is okay
16:10:05 Kev Cool.
16:10:12 Kev 3) https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0357.html Advance to Draft?
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16:10:36 Kev I'm on-list or next meeting.
16:11:00 SamWhited I'm on-list. Re-reading this one I just don't think I have the necessary background knowledge to really have a good opinion.
16:11:03 Ge0rG -1 because the high priority topic hasn't been addressed. I liked the stripped stanza proposal very much.
16:11:34 Kev I'm very much in favour of allowing pushing the real data through, BTW.
16:11:42 Ge0rG The current XEP is much better than half a year ago, but the feedback from the list last August wasn't addressed
16:12:10 Kev Privacy is needed to be supported, but it's also useful to allow users/deployments to make the tradeoff of utility vs. privacy.
16:12:14 Ge0rG Kev: a tri-state of none / stripped / full will make that possible
16:12:18 Kev Yes.
16:12:29 Ge0rG Was suggested some months ago
16:12:36 Kev I'm aware I'm the caretaker of 357, so I probably need to put the time in here.
16:12:41 Kev Goodness knows what time, but I shall try.
16:12:46 SamWhited That seems overly complicated to me, but I am for allowing data
16:12:52 Kev 4) https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0359.html Advance to Draft?
16:13:21 Ge0rG The current status quo of hard coding "you have a new message" into the server module config is... non-ideal
16:14:26 Ge0rG I've submitted some feedback to 0359 yesterday, and would like to see it addressed, but won't block it on that matter. +0 without a change or +1 if it's properly addressed
16:14:40 Kev I'm list/next meeting on this as well.
16:14:43 SamWhited I'm on-list for this one as well
16:15:16 Kev 5) https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/692
16:15:31 Kev I am, again, onlist/next meeting.
16:16:20 SamWhited +0
16:16:35 Ge0rG on-list
16:16:56 Kev 6) https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/693
16:16:58 Kev OL/NM
16:17:18 Ge0rG on-list
16:17:26 Ge0rG This is so productive MC
16:17:32 SamWhited +0; pub-sub is something that I just don't feel confident enough with to review it no matter how many times I re-read it.
16:17:33 Ge0rG This is so productive!
16:17:41 Kev 7) https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/715
16:17:44 Kev OL/NM
16:18:09 Ge0rG on-list
16:18:15 SamWhited +1
16:18:45 Kev 8) https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/716 https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2018-November/035434.html
16:18:48 Kev OL/NM
16:19:23 Ge0rG It's asking for discussing, right?
16:19:34 jonas’ discussion didn’t happen
16:19:37 jonas’ council needs to make a decision
16:21:13 Ge0rG Currently, the examples in the XEP are missing the feature, right?
16:21:32 jonas’ are you talking about #715 or #716?
16:21:41 SamWhited -1; I agree that it's weird to always include it even though it's obvious that it's supported, but I don't see the need to modify a final XEP and add optional behavior. My recommendation to implementations is to just follow the standard as its written, weird quirk and all, and if you need to check disco support make this assumption yourself.
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16:22:12 jonas’ that’s the most sensible word I heard about that so far, SamWhited :-)
16:22:22 SamWhited I apologize for not replying to the list about this; I meant to do so earlier.
16:22:35 Ge0rG Will accepting 715 make the examples consistent with the standard and include the feature everywhere?
16:22:45 jonas’ Ge0rG, the former, yes. the latter, haven’t checked.
16:23:13 Ge0rG ...and increase the number of examples where it's included?
16:23:18 jonas’ yes.
16:23:21 jonas’ if it is councils wish that the feature shall be in every disco#info/disco#items example in that XEP, I can do that upon merge.
16:23:40 jonas’ s/do/ensure/
16:23:42 Kev I need to catch up, but I'm not keen on making any non-vital changes to 30.
16:24:11 Kev Or any substantial non-vital changes.
16:24:13 SamWhited Indeed; even in the state we're in today where everything ignores this, it's probably not going to break anything as is.
16:24:27 Ge0rG I'm not sure we need to have it in all examples of all XEPs, I'd rather add a note to 0030 that the feature might not be present in *examples* but needs to be implemented
16:24:46 SamWhited A little non-normative note seems reasonable.
16:25:00 Ge0rG Yes, and it wouldn't change the normative text.
16:25:08 SamWhited Although I don't think it's necessary either, but that would probably be for the next council to decide.
16:25:11 Ge0rG So it's an editorial change.
16:25:31 Ge0rG I don't see the need to hunt all XEPs for compliance
16:25:43 SamWhited That's true, I'd be happy for the editors to just make that change
16:25:45 Kev Sounds like time to move along, to me?
16:25:50 SamWhited *nods*
16:25:54 Kev 9) Date of next
16:25:55 Kev SBTSBC?
16:26:01 SamWhited WFM
16:26:06 jonas’ Ge0rG, SamWhited, please propose wording.
16:26:24 Ge0rG jonas’: can you remind me tomorrow around noon?
16:26:35 jonas’ Ge0rG, not really
16:26:48 Ge0rG +1W WFM
16:26:55 pep. /send_delayed "tomorrow around noon" poke Ge0rG
16:27:07 Kev 10) Yay, double-figures. AOB?
16:27:10 SamWhited "Note that this may be omitted in examples in the XEP series"
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16:27:21 SamWhited s/may/is sometimes/
16:27:33 Ge0rG Kev: did we have any expired votes to recast?
16:27:45 Ge0rG Open votes from last week?
16:28:09 Kev https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/717 Is the only open one from last week, I think.
16:28:22 Ge0rG SamWhited: s/this/the disco#info feature /
16:28:45 jonas’ I think the expired stuff was already covered
16:28:49 Kev (And which I need to deal with)
16:29:05 Kev The expired stuff is what Tedd put on the agenda, I believe. I've not checked the SoD to verify.
16:29:09 Ge0rG I have started working on the Moved XEP but it turned out to be a huge mess, implementation wise.
16:30:09 Ge0rG There's a rendered version of a preliminary proposal on my private server, but nothing official yet. Will submit it to the next council
16:30:21 Kev Thanks.
16:31:01 Ge0rG The only reasonable way I see is to use messages instead of presence, but I'm not clear yet whether we need messages from the old account or from both
16:31:05 Kev Moved is a bit of a nightmare if you want to do anything automatically because you need your server to also do things automatically (like link MAM archives) and all sorts of horrors follow from entities causing your archive to be rewritten.
16:31:27 Kev AOAOB?
16:32:07 SamWhited none here
16:32:09 Kev I'm hearing a silence of 'no'.
16:32:11 jonas’ -
16:32:12 Kev So, thanks all.
16:32:18 Kev <<EOF
16:32:20 SamWhited Thanks
16:32:31 Ge0rG Kev: we can solve Moved with a permanent roster annotation
16:32:49 Ge0rG Is there precedent for roster annotations?
16:32:50 Kev Ge0rG: I find your ideas intruiging and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
16:33:10 Kev Ge0rG: I find your ideas intriguing and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
16:33:23 jonas’ Ge0rG, MIX.
16:33:32 jonas’ and it’s a horrible precendent, IMO.
16:33:44 Ge0rG Kev: you can rent my services at only 180€/hr... 😢
16:33:58 Ge0rG Yes, MIX is a mess.
16:34:31 Ge0rG But a Moved message will only be retained for so long, if at all.
16:34:51 jonas’ (I’m not saying the concept of roster annotations is a horrible precedent, but that particular implementation is)
16:35:03 Ge0rG If you have MAM=contacts, and the old JID is removed, will your server purge the Moved message?
16:35:15 jonas’ probably not
16:35:19 jonas’ would be terrible if it did
16:35:26 jonas’ both for how MAM works, and for users
16:35:47 Ge0rG Did I mention that implementing Moved on top of real life XMPP is a mess mm
16:35:54 Ge0rG Did I mention that implementing Moved on top of real life XMPP is a mess?
16:35:57 Kev FWIW, roster annotations have been a thing we've been discussing for well over a decade.
16:36:08 Kev MIX is just the first time we had a concrete use for them.
16:36:15 Ge0rG Kev: but it never happened?
16:36:34 Ge0rG Moved would be a concrete use case.
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16:37:12 jonas’ IMO, the easierst for both clients and servers would be a namespaced element within the roster <item/>
16:37:15 Ge0rG A PEP tombstone would be another possibility, but less flexible
16:37:33 jonas’ (regarding the general concept of roster annotation?)
16:37:34 Ge0rG jonas’: that would be a roster annotation, right?
16:37:35 jonas’ (regarding the general concept of roster annotations)
16:37:57 jonas’ Ge0rG, yes, that’s my point (just clarifying; I understand you’re probably behind latency)
16:38:34 Ge0rG jonas’: and I'm approaching the next coverage hole. Also typing on a touch screen
16:38:42 jonas’ good luck
16:39:07 Ge0rG Thanks. Looks like I survived the meeting well enough at least
16:39:39 jonas’ also, xsf@ maybe.
16:39:51 Ge0rG If implementing roster annotations takes as long as persistent PEP, I'm out.
16:40:16 jonas’ shouldn’t be as hard
16:41:02 Ge0rG Not sure it's about being hard.
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16:43:46 Ge0rG https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0145.html
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