XMPP Council - 2019-03-13

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15:02:53 Kev Do we have an agenda for today?
15:16:55 Link Mauve Nafaik.
15:17:10 moparisthebest There are pending protoxeps but maybe too late
15:50:45 Kev If those didn't make it onto an agenda, I guess next week for them.
15:51:35 Link Mauve Yes, we do have https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/765
15:54:46 zinid just in case you also have: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/eax-cir.html
15:56:48 dwd Yeah, no agenda, sorry - things are a bit mad for me at work currently.
15:57:53 Kev I've been completely swamped for the last few weeks.
15:58:01 Kev I have at least got out votes for the meeting two weeks ago just before they expire.
15:58:25 jonas’ it is reassuring that we’re all being swamped at the same time at least
15:58:38 jonas’ hasn’t been much better for me either, as you can probably guess by the editor latencies
15:59:09 zinid the council is swamped, okay
15:59:59 Link Mauve I’ve also been both swamped, and got my main laptop stolen. :x
16:00:08 Kev Oh, that's sucky.
16:00:24 Link Mauve I do have backups, but I need to get a new one asap.
16:00:40 Link Mauve And also a new passport.
16:00:42 jonas’ Link Mauve, ouchie
16:01:24 dwd Oh, that does suck, indeed.
16:01:32 dwd So, anyway:
16:01:35 dwd 1) Roll Call
16:01:37 Kev Here.
16:02:04 dwd Link Mauve and jonas’ I assume are here - Ge0rG?
16:02:12 jonas’ I am
16:02:52 dwd Well, we'll move on.
16:03:02 dwd 2) Agenda Bashing
16:03:59 dwd I see two ProtoXEPs, and nothing else.
16:04:12 jonas’ I haven’t checked the editor inbox in the last 7 days, unfortunately.
16:04:31 jonas’ (mostly)
16:04:33 dwd I'm perfectly happy to get the two ProtoXEPs onto this meeting's agenda so we can at least hope to get them through quickly, even if many of us are on-list.
16:04:41 jonas’ I agree with that
16:05:19 Kev I think everyone onlisting is something to be avoided, and we should be aiming not to add things to the agenda during the meeting. But, majority rule.
16:05:28 dwd Oh, and Jingle Message Initiation has been requested to move to Draft.
16:05:52 Link Mauve So a last call?
16:05:55 dwd Kev, yes, but all these things have been posted to the standards@ list, so it's entirely our fault.
16:05:57 jonas’ Kev, we could discuss this particular point in AOB, I have opinions on that.
16:06:07 jonas’ dwd, they have been posted last night though, I can see his point ;-)
16:06:22 Kev dwd: I used to monitor the calls, but since we get agendas in advance, these days I just wait for the agendas to come in.
16:06:32 dwd 3) Items for a vote
16:06:42 dwd Kev, I find your faith in me worrying.
16:06:59 dwd a) E2E Authentication in XMPP: Certificate Issuance and Revocation
16:07:12 dwd https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/eax-cir.html
16:07:16 Kev Well, if we rely on everyone working out what the agenda will be, there's little point sending out agendas :)
16:07:18 Kev On-list.
16:07:19 jonas’ on-list, obviously
16:07:55 Link Mauve On-list too.
16:08:32 dwd I think I'm tentatively +1. Seems in-scope.
16:08:35 jonas’ oooh
16:08:36 jonas’ ooooh
16:08:45 jonas’ (that’s for the anticipated (b))
16:08:45 dwd What?
16:08:54 dwd Oh.
16:08:59 jonas’ I was just reading XEP-0001 regarding the next one
16:09:31 dwd b) DNS Queries over XMPP (DoX)
16:09:43 dwd https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/dox.html
16:09:48 Kev This was an 1stApril wasn't it?
16:09:50 jonas’ this should’ve been on the humorous track
16:09:53 jonas’ and not ever reached council
16:09:56 jonas’ according to '0001
16:09:58 jonas’ I’m getting a call
16:10:00 Kev They're not meant to reach us, indeed.
16:10:02 dwd I genuinely do not know if this one is April 1 or not. But yes, I agree it's out of our scope.
16:10:25 dwd jonas’, People call you about these things now? :-)
16:10:59 Link Mauve There have been people voicing concern that this isn’t any more humorous than the HTTP version.
16:11:05 Link Mauve And could even be more useful.
16:11:09 dwd jonas’, If it *is* intended to be a joke - and I thought DoH was originally - then it's of the wrong Type.
16:11:17 jonas’ dwd, yes
16:11:19 jonas’ it is
16:11:35 jonas’ > I would humbly suggest this might be accepted as a XEP on the first of next month, if council approves. ;) from https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/765
16:11:40 jonas’ I messed that one up
16:11:42 dwd Ah-ha.
16:11:53 dwd No worries. We'll skip that then.
16:12:08 jonas’ spoiling the fun though
16:12:14 jonas’ to the minute-taker, please omit the discussion about (b) :)
16:12:17 Kev Let's ...
16:12:19 Kev right, that.
16:12:26 moparisthebest personally, I'd prefer it not be humorous track, but also released april 1st :)
16:12:36 moparisthebest don't know who ends up making that decision, just that it's not me
16:12:41 jonas’ moparisthebest, in the end, it’s you
16:12:46 dwd c) XEP-0353: Jingle Message Initiation
16:12:53 Link Mauve You as the author makes the decision on which track to go through.
16:12:54 jonas’ if you say you actually want this on Standards Track and not Humorous...
16:13:04 moparisthebest it's no more or less serious than DoH, which is a real RFC :)
16:13:23 dwd Oh, wait, are we going to consider this one properly then?
16:13:37 jonas’ I’m afraid so
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16:15:07 dwd Oh. So I'll +1 DoX if you want it on Standards Track, but I'm going to be leaning on you very heavily to get some Security Considerations in place about privacy.
16:15:38 Kev I'll on-list it, but I'm very much opposed to publishing on April 1st if it's not meant to be humorous.
16:15:53 moparisthebest I *mostly* copied them directly from Security Considerations on the DoH RFC, but yes I agree privacy stuff should be added
16:16:34 dwd Kev, You can engineer that, of course...
16:16:48 dwd OK, jonas’, Link Mauve - since we're actually voting, are you two also going on-list?
16:17:00 Link Mauve Yes, I will be.
16:17:17 Link Mauve Leaning towards +1 because it’s a valid usecase and seems properly written.
16:17:51 dwd jonas’?
16:18:08 dwd I'll assume he's trapped on the phone and will on-list.
16:18:18 dwd So back to:
16:18:27 dwd c) XEP-0353: Jingle Message Initiation
16:18:44 dwd Andrew asked for this to be advanced to Draft, so we'd need to vote for Last Call.
16:18:51 Link Mauve Is there any author available to issue the last call?
16:18:59 Link Mauve ~~Or is Andrew becoming the shepard?~~ ✎
16:19:01 dwd Link Mauve, Good point.
16:19:06 Kev Previously, we could have just done this if we wanted.
16:19:09 Link Mauve Or is Andrew becoming the shepherd? ✏
16:19:17 Kev Now we're only allowed to if we determine it's abandoned.
16:19:38 jonas’ dwd, sorry, I’m on call and got a page, that’s what I meant to say earlier
16:19:47 jonas’ I’m on-list, defaulting to -1 otherwise.
16:19:54 jonas’ regarding (b)
16:20:03 jonas’ regarding (c), nothing wrong with LC I think
16:20:10 Kev (For those not following, a recent change was made by Board to XEP1 to change it from Council being allowed to issue an LC whenever it wanted, irrespective of who asked, to only being able to issue one if an author asks, unless the authors have abandoned the XEP)
16:20:25 dwd I'll follow-up with Andrew to see if he's willing to gether and process feedback, then.
16:20:40 Kev ~~So I think we're obliged to contact Peter and Philip and ask if they've abandoned it.~~ ✎
16:20:49 Kev So I think we're obliged to contact Peter and Philipp and ask if they've abandoned it. ✏
16:21:10 dwd I'll do so.
16:21:13 Kev Ta.
16:21:18 dwd 4) AOB
16:21:41 dwd I know jonas’ had some aboutt agendums, but I assume that can wait and/or be discussed on the Council list.
16:21:48 dwd Anyone else?
16:22:14 Kev Newp.
16:22:20 dwd 5) Next Meeting
16:22:27 Link Mauve +1W?
16:22:28 dwd Same time next week?
16:23:04 dwd That's Wednesday 20th March, 1600 UTC.
16:23:13 dwd 6) Ite, Meeting Est
16:23:15 dwd Thanks all.
16:23:17 Kev I don't currently have anything stopping me, but the way things have been recently... yeah.
16:23:39 dwd Kev, I know that feeling and truly sympathize.
16:28:14 moparisthebest Kev, so it's as-useful as DoH but with better performance (less RTTs), and has implementations that work, which is why I want Standards Track, but also like DoH it's a flagrant layer violation so I just thought it'd be funny to release on April 1st and have people forever more wondering "wait, is this a joke or not?"
16:28:32 moparisthebest but I can have an odd sense of humor, I'm not married to the idea :P
16:29:25 jonas’ people wondering about a spec being a joke or not is generally not good for UX
16:29:47 moparisthebest jonas’, curious as to the default to -1, but if you are going to bring it up on list I can wait to discuss there too
16:30:29 jonas’ moparisthebest, I don’t think either of DoH or DoX is a good idea
16:30:40 jonas’ but I’m going to read the rationale and be convinced otherwise
16:31:22 moparisthebest well I can tell you right now if you don't like DoH you won't like DoX, they are for all intents and purposes identical
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16:32:31 zinid what purpose? browsers need this hack because they need to resolve, and an XMPP client doesn't need to resolve anything
16:32:48 zinid not sure if trolling...
16:33:03 moparisthebest if anything an XMPP client needs to resolve much more? don't some resolvers still break on SRV etc
16:33:34 zinid it needs to resolve that to open the stream
16:33:40 Zash HTTP upload eg
16:33:50 moparisthebest not if it's hard-coded, like any DNS resolver will have to be
16:34:21 jonas’ moparisthebest, you don’t need to hard code DNS resolvers
16:34:25 jonas’ you learn them via DHCP or system configuration
16:34:51 zinid Zash, isn't what an HTTP library should do?
16:35:09 moparisthebest and those are the ones that don't do SRV properly, or mangle responses etc, read DNS-over-TLS and DoH spec for all those reasons
16:35:36 moparisthebest that's just not true anymore jonas’ , android 9 hardcodes a DNS-over-TLS by default now, browsers hard-code DoH addresses etc
16:36:04 zinid and we need that insanity in XMPP too?
16:36:18 jonas’ moparisthebest, yes, because they suck
16:36:36 moparisthebest of course, we are forever trying to catch up to HTTP browser levels of insanity
16:39:12 zinid so far that's not we but you 🙂
16:40:32 moparisthebest so, you are a XMPP client, you ask your resolver for SRV records, it returns an error, then what?
16:41:12 moparisthebest it could fall back to connecting to a known/public "resolver xmpp account" and resolving that way
16:41:33 zinid you try A record?
16:41:57 moparisthebest ok so if that fails then
16:42:10 moparisthebest that's one perfectly valid usecase, another is your router staying connected via XMPP and resolving DNS for your network
16:42:49 zinid valid use case in what situation?
16:42:51 moparisthebest my router currently resolves DNS over DNS-over-TLS and DNS-over-HTTPS, both over tor, and the constant TLS setup/teardown adds quite a bit of overhead that wouldn't exist with DoX
16:42:59 zinid when resolver doesn't work, but internet does?
16:43:15 moparisthebest that's 2 usecases I can think up right now
16:43:21 Kev 1.3 to the rescue?
16:43:24 moparisthebest zinid, yep, that happens often
16:43:57 zinid moparisthebest, I don't think often enough to address the problem using stupid hacks
16:45:17 moparisthebest wasn't Ge0rG just complaining the other day that a large % of clients couldn't resolve SRV records?
16:46:09 zinid I don't like this attitude to degrade the tech because of amateur developers
16:46:38 zinid it's not how the industry is progressing
16:46:46 moparisthebest where do amateur developers come in?
16:46:49 zinid you cannot degrade medicine or particle physics
16:46:57 zinid to fit idiots in there
16:46:58 moparisthebest the SRV record thing is bad dns resolvers that haven't been upgraded in 20 years
16:47:30 moparisthebest and/or bad ISPs or countries that block them
16:47:31 Zash and the web doesn't use SRV, so who cares
16:47:40 zinid use A records?
16:47:40 moparisthebest exactly
16:47:51 zinid still better than DoXYZ
16:48:02 moparisthebest zinid, port 5222 is blocked too
16:48:21 zinid and how DoX will help with blocked ports?
16:48:24 moparisthebest maybe we should just make XMPP connect to port 443 on the A record via TLS as a fallback :)
16:48:30 zinid use 443, we already have this insanity
16:48:47 moparisthebest because DoX gets you the SRV records that can point to alternate ports?
16:49:32 zinid and then they will block your ALPN?
16:49:37 zinid what will do next?
16:49:46 zinid looks like an arm race
16:49:56 moparisthebest well, we have encrypted SNI now, so encrypt ALPN using the same setup? :P
16:50:02 moparisthebest it's absolutely an arms race
16:50:19 zinid but why would we need to accept the race? what's the point?
16:50:25 moparisthebest end goal being have everything encrypted and unblockable
16:50:47 moparisthebest then $they find new ways to block, and $we find new ways around those, forever
16:50:50 zinid which means everything is resolved via a single 1.2.3.4 using TLS on 443?
16:51:05 zinid that's what we're going to do
16:51:14 moparisthebest yea, that's already the case basically
16:51:25 dwd FWIW, I do think DoX is insane, but so is DoH. Question for me is whether DoX is better being redirected to IETF, thinking about it, if i's a serious proposal.
16:51:26 zinid I disagree of course, it's not the case
16:51:30 moparisthebest at least things brings in the possibility for more diversity in resolvers
16:52:03 zinid moparisthebest, there will no be diversity, there will be 1.2.3.4 TLS on 443
16:52:09 moparisthebest zinid, it is the case, android 9 ships by default with all DNS going to google over TLS
16:52:22 zinid and?
16:52:26 moparisthebest browsers already ship with DoH capability
16:52:35 zinid so why we need DoX?
16:52:44 moparisthebest only a short matter of time before they turn on by default
16:53:30 moparisthebest dwd, I agree with you, DoX is equal in it's insanity to DoH, no more, no less :)
16:53:41 moparisthebest both have use cases, both a bit crazy, but use cases nonetheless
16:54:08 dwd moparisthebest, The main use case being having someone like Google get all your DNS lookup data.
16:54:39 zinid yeah, I personally don't care whether it will be Google or moparisthebest.com, both are crap
16:55:02 moparisthebest run your own?
16:55:02 zinid we should not move that road
16:55:11 jonas’ moparisthebest, I already run my own. On port 53.
16:55:25 zinid moparisthebest, why? I have everything working
16:55:32 moparisthebest and every *other* network you go on intercepts that and sends you whatever it feels like jonas’
16:55:42 jonas’ moparisthebest, so? I have dnssec for that.
16:55:47 zinid and I don't want to run my own, that's also insane
16:55:52 jonas’ it can’t, too, because my resolver runs on 127.0.0.1
16:55:59 moparisthebest oh so then they just DOS you?
16:56:01 jonas’ I wanna see them intercept /that/
16:56:09 moparisthebest DNSSEC solves a different set of problems
16:56:14 jonas’ they can DOS me already if they block TCP or UDP or whatever
16:56:26 moparisthebest privacy etc for instance is not addressed by DNSSEC
16:56:30 jonas’ yeah
16:56:51 jonas’ I can personally live with that. and if others can’t, we should solve this in DNS, not by stacking layers over layers for no good reason.
16:57:17 moparisthebest take it up with the IETF, they decided it was a great idea
16:57:27 Kev Surely DoX should be using DoH at the other end anyway, because the resolver the DoX box is using might have SRV blocked?
16:57:39 jonas’ moparisthebest, some people under the umbrella of the IETF thought htat
16:57:49 jonas’ that’s a difference.
16:58:00 moparisthebest it's probably too late though, since most devices will be using it soon enough
16:58:21 jonas’ maybe I should switch trades and learn something which isn’t being botched awfully
16:58:35 zinid jonas’, for example what? 🙂
16:58:35 moparisthebest ha I've often thought about that :P
16:58:41 jonas’ zinid, I don’t know
16:58:47 zinid I think every other industry is polluted by this shit
16:58:49 jonas’ anything which has settled more than IT has
16:59:16 zinid maybe academics, but it's totally biased, full of ad hominem and groupthinking
16:59:19 Zash Every other industry isn't 50 years old
16:59:26 jonas’ isn’t *just*
16:59:51 moparisthebest sustenance farming
17:01:10 Zash Potato farming, in the woods?
17:01:22 moparisthebest sure
17:03:01 moparisthebest Kev, the resolver I'm running currently upstreams to random DNS-over-TLS servers, but someone is writing a prosody module now to go dox -> doh >:)
17:07:19 zinid jonas’, probably to switch the IT niche, but it will be very marginal, if you try to up your head a bit you get it into Google shit 🙁
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17:07:50 jonas’ yeah, layer 1 through 3 are nice
17:08:08 moparisthebest jonas’, let me tell you about QUIC
17:08:23 zinid oh yes, QUIC...
17:08:27 jonas’ moparisthebest, that’s above layer 3
17:08:30 Zash A dream of SCTP :(
17:08:57 zinid suddenly they found out that it takes time to adopt SCTP, so let's do everything at layer3 !!!
17:08:59 zinid faster!!!
17:09:00 jonas’ layer 3 isn’t going to change anymore, look at how long it takes to deploy v6 ;-)
17:09:10 jonas’ what?
17:09:17 jonas’ I’ll just leave now, this isn’t good for my mental health
17:09:19 zinid application layer
17:09:34 jonas’ application is 7 or something
17:09:38 jonas’ don’t scare me like that, zinid
17:09:44 zinid in OSI?
17:09:47 jonas’ yeah
17:09:49 zinid okay
17:09:57 jonas’ 3 is IP
17:10:03 zinid yeah, probably
17:10:09 jonas’ don’t scare me like that
17:10:21 jonas’ I treasure layer 3 as my refuge where I go when I feel sad.
17:10:55 moparisthebest but uh, many (most?) middle boxes block any IP that isn't UDP or TCP so....
17:11:04 jonas’ moparisthebest, that’s layer 4
17:11:13 jonas’ UDP and TCP aren’t IPs
17:11:16 moparisthebest which is why QUIC is over UDP, not IP
17:11:23 jonas’ QUIC is over UDP is over IP
17:11:29 Zash A dream of IPSec, but we got TLS instead :(
17:11:31 moparisthebest tl;dr layers don't matter anymore, forget everything you knew about them
17:11:36 jonas’ Zash, IPsec is a horrible mess though
17:11:44 jonas’ moparisthebest, they do matter, up to and including 3
17:11:53 jonas’ which is why I say 1-3 are sane, everything above is madness
17:12:14 Zash jonas’: And TLS ain't?
17:12:28 jonas’ Zash, point taken
17:12:31 moparisthebest you can't do anything with IP though, other than UDP or TCP is what I mean jonas’
17:12:46 Zash TLS seems to have taken on the role of IPSec
17:12:55 jonas’ moparisthebest, working on the infrasturcture which allows UDP and TCP to flow is fun enough and enough "doing something with it"
17:12:56 zinid jonas’, I'm told OSI is a horrible mess, but I don't think it was that bad, in comparison with what we ended up
17:13:44 zinid where we don't have layers anymore
17:14:06 zinid total leak of abstractions from layers to layers back and forth
17:16:33 moparisthebest anyone complain about that with that XMPP SASL thing that needs TLS info? :P
17:16:54 zinid sure, I complained
17:17:09 zinid I can find the complaint in the ML if you like
17:17:27 moparisthebest basically, layer violations are bad unless they give you something good and then they are good
17:18:07 zinid ah, those good intentions
17:18:16 zinid I bet DoH people had good intentions
17:18:43 zinid or maybe it was just Google assasins?
17:20:05 zinid anyway, the major threat will be of course CDNs, not DoH or DoX will help you because you won't be able to do peer-to-peer connections anymore
17:20:11 zinid probably even ICMP will be blocked, lmao
17:21:43 moparisthebest ICMP is already mostly blocked
17:21:51 moparisthebest but what's blocking peer-to-peer connections?
17:21:53 zinid well I mean there will be no route to host
17:22:06 moparisthebest other than, lack of ipv6 deployment
17:22:40 zinid moparisthebest, routers are being replaced by CDNs, google builds farms of CDNs connected via private channels, and ISPs almost don't invest into cables anymore
17:23:03 jonas’ moparisthebest, IPv6 deployment requires ICMP6, for path MTU discovery.
17:23:38 moparisthebest lots of networks block it though, and it seems to work... but I know what you mean
17:23:48 zinid so *I* think the future of the internet is your "last mile" ISP connected to a CDN
17:24:28 zinid so yeah, the industry is fucked up
17:24:42 moparisthebest I really don't know what you mean by CDNs replacing routers though
17:24:46 Zash Like Google Global Cacehe?
17:25:04 moparisthebest there is a lot of effort towards meshnets too, bypassing all this "internet" crap :P
17:25:35 zinid moparisthebest, how will you bypass the crap when your ISP is connected to google cdn directly and routes nothing?
17:25:40 moparisthebest https://github.com/cjdelisle/cjdns / https://hyperboria.net/ seems interesting/promising
17:25:48 zinid there will be no routers, ISP is a last mile for your phone
17:26:13 zinid then goes Google with CDN
17:26:19 moparisthebest are you saying it blocks everything but google? seems pretty far fetched, hopefully
17:26:25 zinid no
17:26:42 zinid it doesn't block anything, there ARE NOT anything except Google CDN server
17:27:03 zinid there is a nice research paper showing the situation
17:27:10 jonas’ I really should’ve left
17:28:42 moparisthebest I can't quite imagine a dystopia where that happens yet
17:29:27 zinid I thought the same, but now we have DoH 😀
17:30:03 moparisthebest if anything that's anti-centralization, gives you a choice
17:30:33 moparisthebest with dns-over-tcp/udp you only have 1 choice, because your router/isp hi-jacks it and returns whatever they want
17:30:43 moparisthebest over TLS, you can connect wherever you choose
17:31:08 moparisthebest that goes for DoT, DoH, and DoX
17:31:32 zinid yeah, good luck trying to beat it with the technology 🙂
17:32:23 moparisthebest it's all I have
17:32:30 ralphm The problem with SCTP is mostly middleboxes.
17:32:35 zinid given that ISP have no zero incentives to build new routes, because 80% is routed to FAANG, why care?
17:32:41 moparisthebest few have the resources of google/amazon/apple/etc so all we have is tech to battle with
17:32:42 zinid *have now
17:32:58 zinid moparisthebest, especially when they now define tech
17:34:59 ralphm I.e. you not only have to support at the edges, but on each possible route between endpoints
17:36:42 zinid yeah, same problem as IPv6 basically
17:41:01 moparisthebest that's why QUIC is over UDP instead of IP
17:41:19 moparisthebest they've essentially said "fuck it, impossible" to making new IP-based protocols
17:54:09 ralphm Even though I too have the same thing about crossing OSI layers, I appreciate the practical thinking here.
17:56:09 zinid I'm not convinced it's practical, at least no urgency, so better to define a strategy on moving to SCTP
17:56:20 zinid really, what urgency?
17:56:50 zinid I don't buy efficiency, because the application layer protocols are already horribly inefficient
17:57:01 moparisthebest there is the "ideal" way which most people generally agree on, but might be impossible to achieve practically
17:57:20 moparisthebest then there is the "a bit crappy but works" way which can be used *now*
17:57:28 moparisthebest balancing them is rough
17:58:29 zinid *now* is a good argument in the case of IPv4, because the address space is over
17:58:32 zinid but with TCP?
17:59:23 zinid btw, just in case, you can incapsulate SCTP into UDP, there is even an RFC for this
17:59:26 moparisthebest QUIC doesn't replace TCP, it replaces TCP+TLS
18:00:09 moparisthebest I think the main benefits are reduced RTTs, and eliminating head-of-line blocking
18:00:18 moparisthebest I'm sure there are more
18:00:53 zinid yeah, reduce RTT in order to download bloated JS pages
18:01:30 moparisthebest soon bloated WASM pages :D
18:01:45 zinid soon?
18:01:47 moparisthebest gotta keep up
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18:20:29 ralphm moparisthebest: indeed, you can get to 0 round-trips for known endpoints.
18:21:03 ralphm moparisthebest: another interesting one is that you can keep a connection even if your IP changes (e.g. when switching between cellular and wifi)
18:32:12 moparisthebest ah right that's handy too
18:32:37 ralphm There are also some benefits regarding how QUIC packets are encrypted and authenticated
18:32:58 ralphm This is an interesting piece: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-joseph-quic-comparison-quic-sctp-00
18:33:41 ralphm Although I'm sure it is not up-to-date with the latest, this gives some more details of why it trumps SCTP and/or TCP in various areas.
18:36:18 moparisthebest so, XMPP-over-QUIC would mean you could do away with Stream Management I think?
18:36:30 moparisthebest and XEP-0397: Instant Stream Resumption
18:37:03 ralphm One other thing I found interesting is that, compared to Google QUIC, they tweaked IETF QUIC headers to allow for multiplexing with STUN/TURN/etc on the same port. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-aboba-avtcore-quic-multiplexing-03
18:37:10 ralphm moparisthebest: yes
18:37:15 ralphm and starttls
18:37:40 ralphm (as TLS 1.3 is baked into QUIC)
18:38:05 moparisthebest incoming XEP-0368v2: SRV records for XMPP over QUIC
18:38:10 moparisthebest hehehe
18:39:10 ralphm I suppose you can just use _xmpp-client._udp for this
18:39:37 zinid I'll probably off this boat
18:41:25 ralphm zinid: at least read that comparison draft I linked. You might find it interesting to know why people have bothered with QUIC.
18:41:53 zinid ralphm, I read it before obviously
18:42:07 zinid and it mostly describes how cool QUIC is
18:42:11 moparisthebest but, old google QUIC or new IETF QUIC because quite different
18:43:20 zinid I have no incentive to implement QUIC, I have no practical problems with TCP, and note that I manage highload with millions of connections
18:43:38 zinid I think this is related to Google grade clusters
18:43:46 zinid and others just swallow it
18:44:10 moparisthebest sure if you ignore all the *other* benefits I guess
18:44:11 zinid RTT is not a problem for me at all
18:44:17 moparisthebest it's certainly not about "handling more connections"
18:45:24 zinid moparisthebest, I still think it's not a worth to ruin everything and rebuilding from scratch
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18:45:35 zinid and putting packets framing into user land
18:46:05 ralphm zinid: I don't think it is ruining everything.
18:46:13 zinid okay, but I do
18:46:23 zinid so I said I'll implement this the latest
18:46:43 zinid when customers and users will jump on my head
18:46:54 moparisthebest things change, when TCP was invented, people switching IPs regularly mid-stream was not-a-thing, now *most* computers do this
18:47:31 ralphm RTT is definitely an issue when you establish many connections and/or in non-reliable networks. The latter is especially true in mobile context.
18:48:03 zinid moparisthebest, but this is solved by SCTP
18:48:23 zinid so far the only somewhat valid arguments I hear is all SCTP can do as well
18:48:34 ralphm If you work in an office, then take the elevator to the ground floor, stopping on a few floors, exit the building, how often do you think you switch networks?
18:48:39 moparisthebest SCTP is impossible to get on the internet, it's over
18:48:55 zinid moparisthebest, internet is over
18:49:53 ralphm There's so much ossification in existing networks that deploying SCTP in a meaningful way is a non-starter. This is not fatalistic, just realistic.
18:49:59 zinid ralphm, I switch the networks everytime, I don't feel discomfort, stream management works for me
18:50:52 moparisthebest ok, now implement that for all other network connections
18:50:57 moparisthebest or, just once, in QUIC
18:51:07 ralphm It does, but there's latency involved due to roundtrips. With QUIC you might achieve 0 RTT to resume.
18:51:29 zinid ralphm, what latency? 1 sec vs 0.1 sec?
18:51:33 zinid I'm fine with that
18:51:49 moparisthebest might be 30 seconds
18:52:05 zinid and might be an hour, sure
18:52:08 ralphm If someone writes a QUIC library, putting XMPP on top should not be hard
18:52:10 moparisthebest but if you don't want change why are you using this new fancy XMPP stuff, SMTP works fine for messaging
18:52:19 moparisthebest also manage your servers via telnet
18:53:03 ralphm zinid: well, I looked at networks in developing nations, and things aren't that bright.
18:54:07 zinid okay, so why we cannot incapsulate SCTP into UDP once again?
18:54:24 zinid there is an RFC
18:54:28 moparisthebest look at you trying to re-invent QUIC here
18:54:35 moparisthebest >:)
18:54:45 ralphm Why would that be better than QUIC, which actually has a lot traction?
18:54:47 zinid moparisthebest, but that RFC was before QUIC, so who is reinventing?
18:55:11 ralphm But is it better?
18:55:28 zinid depends on what is better and for whom?
18:56:20 ralphm For getting to a place where people can benefit from its properties. Not just theoretically, but in practice.
18:56:34 zinid I see 😀
18:56:44 moparisthebest plus it doesn't bundle TLS which is a huge benefit, for RTTs and other things
18:57:57 zinid moparisthebest, regarding telnet and smtp: why aren't you going to matrix?
18:59:36 ralphm I'm happy for Matrix to exist. They have different ideas. We'll see how that works out.
18:59:47 moparisthebest I like XMPP better so far
19:00:01 moparisthebest seems good enough at adapting to new tech too
19:00:14 ralphm moparisthebest: I hear that often around these parts 🤣
19:00:25 zinid moparisthebest, yeah good answer 🙂
19:00:44 zinid so I said like 100 posts above I like TCP so far 🙂
19:01:20 ralphm zinid: good, but that doesn't mean QUIC is useless, does it?
19:01:43 zinid ralphm, obviously anything is useful for something
19:01:51 moparisthebest I guess that's even one of the great advantages zinid , when my clients are all connected to my server over QUIC and you are connected via TCP, we'll still be able to talk :D
19:01:52 zinid for someone
19:01:54 moparisthebest <3 XMPP
19:02:45 ralphm passes a ♥️
19:03:16 moparisthebest get your dirty unicode out of here ascii will always be enough for me <3
19:03:21 moparisthebest /s :D
19:03:38 ralphm )-:
19:05:45 Guus ❤ looks like a farting rocket in the font that I'm using.
19:06:08 Guus bah, client auto-replaced that. 😕
19:06:19 ralphm What's wrong with you?
19:06:31 Guus many people have wondered.
19:06:35 moparisthebest Guus, screenshot? I want to see the farting rocket
19:07:41 Guus https://xmpp.igniterealtime.org:7483/httpfileupload/b01dd842-a71f-40bf-be54-9867eb1bb640/pkfpUGLnRJCG_R6lQOmxRg.jpg
19:08:11 zinid but that looks like a dick
19:08:29 Guus and people ask what's wrong with _me_ 🙂
19:08:41 zinid a short dick
19:08:52 moparisthebest zinid, you are thinking of 3===D-----
19:09:11 ralphm Ok, this escalated quickly
19:09:12 Guus I see that the quality of discussion here has been improved. My work here is done.
19:09:32 moparisthebest I'm dying of laughter over here
19:09:49 ralphm Please don't die!
19:10:16 Guus (if you must, laughter is a good way to go though)
19:10:39 Guus is that a XEP? Kill people over XMPP?
19:10:53 Guus <mechanism>laughter</mechanism>
19:11:37 ralphm Maybe as an extension to https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0132.html
19:11:39 zinid LAUGHTER
19:12:10 zinid sasl mechanisms are in all CAPS
19:12:28 moparisthebest I've often wanted a mechanism to slap users in the face over the internet
19:12:31 Guus I prefer not to authenticate when killing people online.
19:12:33 zinid I see total RFC violation here, we need a police
19:12:40 Guus moparisthebest You'll be rich and famous.
19:13:26 ralphm moparisthebest: so XEP-0132 is just the thing for you.
19:18:36 zinid moparisthebest, since you appeal to practice, how do you find federation practical? Sounds like contradicting statements to me
19:18:56 zinid over 15 years of federating it has failed everywhere
19:19:03 zinid *after
19:19:35 ralphm You chatting here seems to contradict your point.
19:19:49 zinid ralphm, no, we're in a bubble here
19:20:37 zinid also, prove me wrong, append federation success stories to xmpp.org pages close to the list of walled gardens of the XMPP
19:21:10 zinid I look at mastodon and matrix and scratch my head: what are they doing?
19:21:30 zinid they didn't learn our lesson? they think they will be lucky this time?
19:21:57 Guus bitcoin!
19:22:00 Guus ducks, runs.
19:22:20 zinid also marginal, hyped though
19:23:08 ralphm I've tried to explain this before, but the supposed failure/demise of having large swaths of users on the federated Jabber network is mostly not a technical issue.
19:23:36 zinid ralphm, does it matter?
19:23:46 zinid I mean what issue exactly lead to a failure
19:24:54 ralphm It does, I can personally address technical issues. Product/business choices of companies, or social issues, or funding issues, or UX ones, not so much.
19:25:29 moparisthebest zinid, SMTP and HTTP seem to be pretty good examples of successful federation, even if you ignore XMPP
19:26:07 zinid moparisthebest, yeah, happened before FAANG, still alive, also, very uneven distribution as noted many times
19:26:34 zinid and SMTP is PITA to self host
19:27:18 zinid and failed in the sense I pointed above: you either have a marginal network, or power-law
19:27:35 zinid xmpp/mastodon/matrix is marginal, smtp/http - power-law
19:27:46 moparisthebest I don't think "many users on a few servers" is a flaw of federation, nothing wrong with that in my opinion
19:27:48 ralphm It took many, many years for SMTP to get to where it is in terms a federation. Email had so many different vendors and protocols.
19:27:54 moparisthebest the point is you can run your own and it works
19:28:28 zinid moparisthebest, so, basically a bubble
19:28:47 zinid and running your own SMTP is a hard task
19:28:48 Guus zinid, I wonder
19:29:04 Guus you've been kicking and screaming for a couple of months now
19:29:12 Guus basically expressing discontent with anything
19:29:14 zinid kicking and screaming
19:29:15 zinid okay
19:29:20 zinid I leave this chat
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19:29:39 Guus what is your intend...ed end goal here?
19:30:01 Guus ... I should have worded that differently.
19:32:07 Guus Then again, it's not as if he's a master of subtlety. 🙂
19:32:17 Guus (is that a word?)
19:33:39 ralphm Subtlety is definitely a word.
19:34:49 Guus I was genuinely interested in why he acts so negative all the time. It's not very productive, nor do I think it's something that's motivating him personally. Live must be tough if you only get to work with stuff that's all of the characteristics that he gives to XMPP.
19:34:57 moparisthebest oh, he left
19:35:16 moparisthebest was going to say running your own SMTP is a nightmare unlike XMPP but meh
19:38:00 moparisthebest if anything, that proves it's not "ease of use" or whatever that makes federation a success or not, XMPP is way easier
19:39:01 Guus my guess is that SMTP pre-dates businessmodels for silos.
19:39:20 Zash Network effect, everything else is subjective
19:39:34 moparisthebest if I had to guess I'd say that was it
19:40:09 moparisthebest which is kind of why, today, if we want nice things HTTP/browsers have to push them, no one else has the pressure to get nice things :D
19:40:50 Zash There was silos in email but they failed somehow
19:40:52 Guus XMPP is nice things, even if it's not pushed to the masses in a truly federated way.
19:41:19 Guus Zash, I don't think there were. You could always federate with other mail accounts?
19:41:40 Guus unless you're not talking about things like Exchange, GMail, etc?
19:41:57 Zash Something something fidonet era stuff
19:41:59 ralphm Silos, like AOL mail, failed because users demanded connectivity
19:42:05 Guus before my time.
19:42:12 Zash I wasn't around either
19:42:42 moparisthebest Guus, yea I meant "nice things" as in ability to connect despite port blocking, new protocols like QUIC etc
19:42:54 ralphm At this point, I only see this happening through some antitrust measure.
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