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Kev
Migraine, so very likely not about this afternoon.
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Ge0rG
Looks like I'll be in a train station at meeting time today, only equipped with my phone.
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jonas’
.
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dwd
Afternoon. This doesn't look promising, then.
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Ge0rG
I'd still like a meeting to happen, even if only for the sake of having a real meeting after two misses
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pep.
Link Mauve has been serverless for a few days. He might show up under a jabberfr jid, or not.
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Ge0rG
Also my AOBs are still largely unresolved. I'm thinking of making message errors a first class citizen, and of The Right Way to reference messages.
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Ge0rG
pep.: maybe we need to send a push notification?
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dwd
OK, we'll give it a shot.
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dwd
1) Roll Call
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pep.
Ge0rG: he doesn't run android nor iOS
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jonas’
I’m here
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Ge0rG
pep.: send a direct message to his jabberfr JID please.
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pep.
(Nor any other OS that provides this kind of things, I assume. I'm gone now)
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dwd
OK, we have three, so that counts for Quorum purposes.
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pep.
I poked him.
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dwd
So we can hold a meeting if we want. Do we want?
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Ge0rG
dwd: are there any new things to vote on?
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dwd
Well, let's:
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dwd
2) AGenda Bashing
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Ge0rG
The agenda is great!
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dwd
I didn't get to an agenda this week, sorry. I'm also unaware of anything in particular, though I believe there was soething in Last Call which has - presumably - become due for a vote.
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jonas’
yeah
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jonas’
no feedback though
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Ge0rG
Didn't we have something regarding jingle?
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jonas’
XEP-0300 and XEP-0353
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Ge0rG
In LC, that is
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jonas’
yes, Jnigle Message Initiation (XEP-0353)
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Ge0rG
Was that the one where we requested feedback from the informal Jingle SIG?
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Ge0rG
jonas’: I had feedback on Table 1 in 0300
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Ge0rG
I'm not sure if that went to standards, though
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jonas’
other than that, I’m not aware of anything to vote on
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dwd
OK, so yes, indeed, both those Last Calls are long-since expired. We can do a vote on both.
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dwd
3) Current Activity
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dwd
I don't think we've anything currently in Last Call or anything? I did notice a bunch of updated XEPs though.
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mathieui
link mauve is coming, fyi, I pinged him by sms
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dwd
jonas’, Anything of note here?
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jonas’
the official release of that new XEP
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jonas’
XEP-0421✎ -
jonas’
XEP-0421: Anonymous unique occupant identifiers for MUCs ✏
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linkmauve
Sorry I'm late!
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jonas’
and obsoletion of the '18 compliance suites
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dwd
Right, thanks.
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dwd
4) Items for a vote.
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dwd
a) XEP-0300 to DRAFT
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Ge0rG
On list
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jonas’
I think I’m +1
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dwd
I think I'm +1 here.
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jonas’
unless Ge0rG tells me a good reason not to be with his Table 1 feedback ;)
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Ge0rG
jonas’: I think that table doesn't belong into 0300, but into an informational XEP or a registry
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dwd
Ge0rG, I think the ideal solution would be to go register the names with IANA, actually.
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jonas’
Ge0rG, one could infer that table to refer to the registry which belongs to that xep
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Ge0rG
dwd: wasn't the reason for that table that IANA isn't there yet?
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Ge0rG
I'm not sure whether that table is subject to change, ever
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dwd
Ge0rG, No, I think it was pure expediency.
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Ge0rG
If it's guaranteed to remain as is, I'm +1 on the XEP.
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dwd
linkmauve, Got a vote for us?
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jonas’
IANA has this: https://www.iana.org/assignments/hash-function-text-names/hash-function-text-names.xhtml getting something in there seems.... tricky
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jonas’
requires an RFC updating 3279
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linkmauve
I haven't reviewed the latest version of 0300, I'll be on list.
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dwd
That'll be why we went for expediency.
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dwd
Moving on:
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dwd
b) XEP-0353 to DRAFT
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Ge0rG
On list
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jonas’
on-list with default to -0
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dwd
I'm +1 for this. Seems widely deployed and sensible.
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Ge0rG
jonas’: is there a specific reason for that default?
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jonas’
Ge0rG, there was no feedback on-list and I have no idea about jingle.
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linkmauve
Sorry, I'm not used to phone keyboards.
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Ge0rG
I need to review it for MAM and Carbons side effects
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jonas’
I don’t think that me reviewing it will give me anything which helps me decide
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jonas’
dwd, widely deployed? I would’ve expected feedback in the month this has been in LC then.
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dwd
jonas’, Well, that's a matter of low energy and engagement.
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Ge0rG
Even a short message about it being widely deployed
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Ge0rG
XMPP Low Energy.
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dwd
linkmauve, Any vote/opinion?
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linkmauve
0353 I'm on list too with a default of +1.
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jonas’
I’ll send a mail about that to the list.
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dwd
OK.
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dwd
5) Outstanding votes
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dwd
I think the previous ones have all now expired.
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Ge0rG
Yes
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dwd
6) Next Meeting
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dwd
+1W?
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jonas’
wfm
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Ge0rG
+1W looks good on my calendar
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linkmauve
Wait I have an aob.
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dwd
linkmauve, Hang on.
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dwd
It's not AOB yet.
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dwd
7) AOB
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linkmauve
About message retraction.
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dwd
linkmauve, Uh-oh. Do tell.
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linkmauve
Multiple people noticed that the previous council forgot about it.
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linkmauve
It has the same issues as reactions though.
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dwd
:-(
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pep.
Yeah, Ge0rG jokingly commented on that in xsf@
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pep.
(Or maybe it was serious? :p)
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linkmauve
As in, message attachment is blocking it.
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dwd
I agree it's all an interesting mesh of issues. I'm not sure it's something for Council to do much with beyond evaluating a proposal.
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Ge0rG
dwd: what's the alternative for Council, then? Just reject everything with references, until someone comes up with The Right Way?
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linkmauve
Oh, my connection will drop in a few minutes, I'm in the U-Bahn.
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dwd
Ge0rG, Well, individuals on Council can propose something of course.
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pep.
If I may, from the floor, I would very much like to get these accepted before we figure out the answer to the ultimate question [..]
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Ge0rG
dwd: I think this is something where multiple council members might combine efforts to move things forward
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dwd
Ge0rG, Well, sure, but it really doesn't have to be council members, is what I'm saying.
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Ge0rG
Somebody over in xsf@ even questioned the authority of Council members to reject a proto XEP on those grounds.
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jonas’
it is duplicating existing protocol
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jonas’
(in theory that would be an applicable reason)
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jonas’
I tend to agree with the general sentiment
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Ge0rG
dwd: yes, but currently there are some proposals (and their authors) blocked on this issue
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jonas’
can we reach out to the client devs who are invested in this and work closely with them to figure out a solution?
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jonas’
I mean they need to be on board anyways
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dwd
jonas’, Definitely. It'd be nice to get a bunch of them to agree on a solution. Maybe if they discussed it on a mailing list or a chatroom and proposed a XEP.
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jonas’
that’d be ideal
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dwd
jonas’, Do we have a mailing list or a chatroom people could use?
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jonas’
and also get some of them to apply for council next term
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jonas’
dwd, I’m not sure if you’re being rhetorical here
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pep.
Standards@? jdev@?
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Ge0rG
I can only imagine that somebody who just got their first XEP rejected on formal grounds might not be very inclined to do the work required to resolve those formal issues
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jonas’
xsf@ even
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pep.
Or that
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dwd
jonas’, Either rhetorical or sarcastic. It's hard for even me to tell these days.
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Ge0rG
The <s> tag stands for "serious".
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Ge0rG
Can I summarize this debate as "we have agreed to keep everything as is"?
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jonas’
I’ll reach out to them
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dwd
Ge0rG, For what it's worth, I wanted to accept the Reactions one.
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linkmauve
It's not that much of a formal issue, but a factoring issue.
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dwd
Anyway.
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dwd
We're over time - anyone got anything to add before I close?
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jonas’
not me
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dwd
8) Ite, Meeting Est
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Ge0rG
please on-list your opinion regarding message errors.
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dwd
Ge0rG, You'll need to remind me on the details - was it broadcast in Carbons, etc?
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dwd
Ge0rG, Only, I've got a use-case for sending them through MUC, now.
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Ge0rG
dwd: it was about that, yes. Also about putting errors into MAM and offline storage
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Ge0rG
I'm worried about the side effects of carbonated message errors on protocols I'm not aware of.
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dwd
Ge0rG, Right. So my problem is to do with sending messages with out of band media, and wanting to clearly indicate to the sender if downloading the media failed.
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Ge0rG
For MUC errors, Carbon-copying is certainly problematic
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dwd
Ge0rG, No, not MUC errors, errors from messages passing through MUC. The current implementations would simply boot the user who sent the error.
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Ge0rG
dwd: yes, that's a different issue
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dwd
Ge0rG, Yes, but I think it's related.
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Ge0rG
dwd: I'm not very sure about that.
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dwd
Ge0rG, In as much as most entities are bad about generating and handling errors, and that's in part because of our stipulated handling.
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Ge0rG
dwd: yes, but we are speaking of two orthogonal problems with the stipulated handling.
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Ge0rG
maybe occupants should send errors and receipts via PM anyway?
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dwd
Ge0rG, Absolutely. Same area, distinct issues.
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dwd
Ge0rG, That's an interesting suggestion.
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Ge0rG
dwd: obviously not good for read markers, because somebody thought it's fancy to keep track of who read how much of what, individually.
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dwd
Ge0rG, Yes... It's quite a way to amplify traffic though.
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Ge0rG
I wonder if you can trigger read-markers with empty messages.
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Ge0rG
But then again, DoS on XMPP clients is as challenging as taking away candy from children.
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dwd
Ge0rG, True. It's not about DoS, just efficiency.
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Ge0rG
dwd: sending a MUC-PM error is perfectly fine, unless PMs are forbidden by the MUC
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dwd
Ge0rG, Do those go through?
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Ge0rG
I _think_ so
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dwd
Ge0rG, I think they'd appear to be normal bounces (similar to a delivery failure) and thus kick the offending client.
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Ge0rG
Let's test.
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Ge0rG
dwd: I just sent you a message error PM. I hope
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dwd
[16:56:51] Ge0rG: Let's test. [17:00:52] message ―――――――――――――――――――― [17:01:03] Ge0rG: dwd: I just sent you a message error PM. I hope
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dwd
That's... Interesting.
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Ge0rG
<message to="council@muc.xmpp.org/dwd" type="error"><error type="cancel"><not-acceptable xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-stanzas'/><text xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-stanzas'>This is a severe error.</text></error></message>
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Ge0rG
I wasn't kicked by either MUC or server.
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Ge0rG
dwd: what client was that, btw?
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Ge0rG
Error> council@muc.xmpp.org/Ge0rG: cancel: This is a severe error. ...is what I get on self-PM
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dwd
Gajim.
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Ge0rG
Somebody with a faster uplink should add PMs to https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/index.php?title=Client_Test_Cases
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