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pep.
dwd: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/840 I think you forgot this
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pep.
(Mentioned above)
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Ge0rG
Is it Council Meeting Day again?
-
Ge0rG
Time flies fast.
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Kev
I shall be trying to make it, but AFK a bit.
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Link Mauve
Hi, I am here.
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Ge0rG
Hi Link Mauve
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jonas’
I am here too
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jonas’
I also just sent feedback on CS-2020 to the list
-
Link Mauve
Breakfast is almost ready here.
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Ge0rG
Damn, I'm hungry.
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jonas’
I could eat, too.
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jonas’
that’s not fair.
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Link Mauve
I’m still so sad for the onions I just cut, and I don’t know why.
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jonas’
because you murdered those onions
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Link Mauve
jonas’, uh, I haven’t received your email yet.
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Link Mauve
Ah, now I have.
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dwd
Oh, good lord. It's time for a meeting.
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jonas’
Link Mauve, yeah, the list server is a bit slow
-
dwd
So.
-
dwd
1) Roll Call
-
Link Mauve
o/
- jonas’
- Ge0rG ,o/
-
dwd
Great, that's quorum.
-
dwd
2) Agenda Bashing
-
jonas’
as pep mentioned: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/840
-
dwd
Note pep.'s comment above about #840.
-
jonas’
I don’t know of anything else
-
dwd
3) Items for a vote
-
dwd
a) ProtoXEP: Message Retraction https://github.com/xsf/xeps/blob/master/inbox/message-retraction.xml
-
jonas’
why not: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/message-retraction.html ?
-
dwd
Because I'm half asleep?
-
dwd
But yes, much better URL.
-
Ge0rG
on-list
-
jonas’
on-list
-
jonas’
shall handle it together with that message moderation protoxep
-
Link Mauve
On-list too.
-
dwd
I'm +1. But willing to be told I'm wrong later. :-)
-
Ge0rG
reaction, retraction, attach-to-fastening
-
dwd
Ge0rG, Retracting reactions is perfectly fine.
-
Ge0rG
dwd: what about correcting retracted reactions?
-
Ge0rG
We could probaby go on with this forever.
-
jonas’
let’s move on.
-
Ge0rG
Did I mention I still have some more AOBs pending?
-
dwd
OK, we'll move to:
-
dwd
b) https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/840
-
jonas’
I’m not sure if that needs a feature
-
pep.
context: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2019-October/036502.html as it's not mentioned in the PR
-
dwd
Is this suggesting that we has an infinity symbol as a legal value?
-
jonas’
dwd, I think so
-
Zash
An "max_items=current + 1 plz" option would be handy
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pep.
dwd, I assume it's just a placeholder, council can of course bikeshed on what to put as a value :P
-
Ge0rG
I'm not sure whether "∞" is supposed to be a verbatim value for that field, or just some elaborate joke.
-
Ge0rG
Oh, what dwd said.
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Ge0rG
Is the value to be transmitted by the server or by the client?
-
dwd
Well, I'll -1 this then. Having "-1" or empty seems sane for unlimited, but not novel unicode glyphs.
-
Ge0rG
I'm with dwd here.
-
Ge0rG
Also I don't understand the implied semantics of that value.
-
daniel
> Is the value to be transmitted by the server or by the client? both; depending on context
-
Link Mauve
-1 would be bad imo.
-
jonas’
In any case, the text needs to be clearer on what the actual value on the wire for "the server limit" is.
-
dwd
pep., It's really not for Council to do stuff like that.
-
Kev
Here, sorry.
-
Link Mauve
Having it mean arbitrarily-high value wouldn’t be nice.
-
pep.
dwd, you mean it's not for council to provide feedback?
-
jonas’
Link Mauve, but it does that when you cast it to uint ;-)
-
jonas’
(* on some platforms)
-
Link Mauve
jonas’, so with an example?
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: don't get me started about the semantics of 0198 stanza counter overflow.
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, :-)
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: it's NOT funny
-
dwd
pep., Sure, we can provide feedback that a symbol I can't remember how to type isn't going to work.
-
dwd
Anyone else voting?
-
Kev
I'd have thought "" would be better than ∞.
-
Kev
But then so would anything I can type.
-
jonas’
I meant to say -1
-
Ge0rG
we need a value that is a distinct "explicitly set to unlimited", which "" maybe is not.
-
Kev
-1 for untypable glyphs in particular.
-
Kev
Ge0rG: It's not actually unlimited, is it? It's 'largest server-allowed value'.
-
Ge0rG
it could be just "-"
-
Kev
"", "-", "unlimited", "max", all are better than "∞", I think.
-
dwd
I could go along with "". That probably works on servers now. I doubt they all mandate an integer value here.
-
Ge0rG
Kev: "∞" is better than ""
-
jonas’
this discussion reminds me of: > APL apparently used +.× [as infix matrix multiplication operator], which by combining a multi-character token, confusing attribute-access-like . syntax, and a unicode character, ranks somewhere below U+2603 SNOWMAN on our candidate list.
-
jonas’
dwd, servers may easily default to 1 for ""
-
jonas’
I wouldn’t trust that
-
Ge0rG
also there is ambiguity between "" and unset
-
jonas’
especially PEP implementaitons.
-
dwd
Perhaps. Either way, the proposal is an infinity symbol, so the point it moot.
-
Kev
"max" sounds good to me, but anything typable beats untypable, I think.
-
Zash
dwd: Wrong. Prosody has some limited support for the dataforms datatypes XEP.
-
dwd
4) Outstanding Votes
-
Ge0rG
We have two votes expire today
-
dwd
I'll get to those votes after this meeting.
-
dwd
I know I have outstanding.
-
Link Mauve
The value must be something current servers won’t understand imo, otherwise we’re exposing ourselves to implementation details.
-
dwd
I'm sure others do as well.
-
dwd
5) Next Meeting
-
pep.
Kev, "max" sounds good indeed
-
daniel
could council provide me with some clear direction on how to fix the PR instead of just saying no?
-
dwd
Same time next week?
-
jonas’
dwd, +1wwfm
-
Ge0rG
+1W WFM
-
jonas’
daniel, I think we did. Don’t use "∞", use some text value instead. In addition, make it clear what is the magic value.
-
Ge0rG
daniel: replace ∞ with "max"?
-
Ge0rG
daniel: also it would be nice to have an explanation of the semantics of that value when sent by the client vs. by the server
-
dwd
daniel, You'll almost certainly need a feature if you're doing something existing servers don't understand.
-
dwd
6) AOB a) Georg wishes to thrash out CS-2020, please review https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/841
-
Ge0rG
I've modified the XEP with a new intro text, added some more XEPs
-
Ge0rG
more XEPs to be added are asked for
-
jonas’
oh, I forgot about that PR; luckily, judging from the summary, my feedback is still valid
-
Ge0rG
Also the "future work" section
-
daniel
> daniel: also it would be nice to have an explanation of the semantics of that value when sent by the client vs. by the server where. in the label?
-
dwd
daniel, Not now, please.
-
Link Mauve
Ge0rG, I’ll be on-list for that.
-
dwd
Ge0rG, I think everything you've got in #841 looks good.
-
Link Mauve
I wasn’t aware of this PR until now.
-
Ge0rG
jonas’ was so kind to propose some more XEPs for CS-2020
-
Ge0rG
...on list
-
Link Mauve
But it looks nice.
-
Ge0rG
please also comment on jonas’ suggested XEPs
-
dwd
jonas’, Ge0rG - do you have an archive link to the email?
-
Ge0rG
oh, yeah: important detail: I want this XEP to get through Council before the Council re-election, so feedback closes on November 5th
-
Ge0rG
dwd: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2019-October/036515.html
-
jonas’
dwd, one sec✎ -
jonas’
dwd, ^ ✏
-
dwd
Thanks. That was of course for the record and not because I'd completely forgotten it.
-
jonas’
dwd, the email I sent 4 minutes before this meeting started? ;)
-
jonas’
good thing you didn’t forget about it, that would indicate very bad memory ;)
-
dwd
Oh, OK. So I'd just not seen it yet. :-)
-
Ge0rG
Apparently everybody is on-list to this AOB?
-
dwd
Ge0rG, Do you want a formal vote?
-
Ge0rG
dwd: on the PR? No.
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, I think #841 looks good, but I didn’t review the yes/no changes if any because they’re hard to read in the diff.
-
Ge0rG
I'm the owner of the XEP, so I can do whatever I want.
-
dwd
Ge0rG, Indeed you can.
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: it was just a `s/#10005/no/g` kind of change
-
jonas’
okay
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, then only the feedback I already sent to the list standrs✎ -
jonas’
Ge0rG, then only the feedback I already sent to the list stands ✏
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: it was very good, thank you
-
jonas’
you’re welcome :)
-
Ge0rG
I feel slightly inclined to abuse my power to add XEP-0379 to Advanced Mobile.
-
dwd
Ge0rG, I think it all looks good. I'm inclined to agree with Evgeny, too - ditching BOSH sounds like a plan.
-
Ge0rG
dwd: see my response on-list
-
Kev
I would be more inclined to keep BOSH with a note that where possible WSS is better.
-
Kev
(But am not vetoing anything that happens based on either outcome)
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, something about tokens ;)
-
jonas’
(would be an excellent response to evgeny)
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: something about rejected and/or abandoned protoXEPs
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, something about SASL-HT something
-
dwd
Ge0rG, Something about client-key.
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, something about Instant Stream Resumption (which is Experimental)
-
jonas’
dwd, that’s what I meant
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: are you sure it's not Deferred?
-
jonas’
Deferred \subset Experimental in my book
-
Link Mauve
Deprecating BOSH might be a plan, but it sounds like it’s still worth it to have it supported by servers.
-
dwd
Could we deprecate BOSH in clients but not in servers?
-
Ge0rG
Link Mauve: this is exactly what jonas’ suggested in the first mail
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, not exactly
-
Ge0rG
dwd: we could in CS-2020
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, I said clients can pick one
-
jonas’
which isn’t deprecating BOSH
-
dwd
Ge0rG, RIght, what I meant.
-
jonas’
oh wait, I said something about phasing out
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: but you also suggested to phase out BOSH ;)
-
jonas’
but that was an "maybe even" because what do I know about web
-
dwd
As we're coming toward close, can I ask people to keep an eye on Georg's work on CS-2020, and suggest we revisit this every meeting until it ships?
-
jonas’
+1
-
pep.
jonas’, is it 114 you want to remove? I'm curious why. Do you want to push for 225? :p
-
dwd
Anyone want to raise anything else before we close the meeting?
-
Link Mauve
Do we have any data about how usable/blocked WebSocket is in the wild, compared to BOSH?
-
Ge0rG
dwd: yes.
-
Ge0rG
I forgot a tiny little thing.
-
jonas’
pep., no, and only removing for Core Server. You can host a Component on a standalone piece of software, no need to have support for this in every server.
-
Ge0rG
We need to LC CS-2020 two weeks in advance to the final vote.
-
Ge0rG
That would mean we have to LC it next week
-
Ge0rG
...latest.
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, SGTM
-
jonas’
I’d like to call everyone on council ( Kev, dwd, Link Mauve, Ge0rG and me) to try to make this work for once.
-
jonas’
I.e. vote on list quickly to let it enter LC
-
Ge0rG
Which is why I'd like to vote for LC now, and use the LC phase to sort out "Future Development"
-
Link Mauve
Same, I will propose changes before next week if I have any.
-
jonas’
I don’t think we can technically still vote.
-
Ge0rG
can't we vote in AOB?
-
dwd
Ge0rG, Ah, rather renders my suggestion a waste of time.
-
jonas’
I’m +1 on LC after #841 has been included. My feedback shall be counted as LC feedback then.
-
Ge0rG
dwd: your suggestion of revisiting it each meeting? It's sound.
-
dwd
Ge0rG, No, I suggest we Last Call it next week, and this week we ensure we've helped get it to the right shape.
-
Ge0rG
It's still in urgent and dire need of content for "Future Development", though
-
Ge0rG
dwd: well, let's go on with that, then.
-
dwd
But please, let's make sure we're in a position to vote on this within the meeting - otherwise we will run out of time.
-
Ge0rG
Yes.
-
dwd
Sound good to everyone?
-
Link Mauve
Yes.
-
jonas’
yes
-
Ge0rG
I have a gut feeling that we will run out of time, so I'll pester everybody delaying the vote with messages.
-
dwd
OK. With that, I think we're done.
-
Ge0rG
If we vote LC now, we still have roughly enough time in the worst case.
-
Ge0rG
Because surely somebody will on-list the LC vote until October 23rd.
-
dwd
7) Ite, Meeting Est
-
jonas’
Thanks everyone.
-
Ge0rG
Thanks Dave, thanks everybody else.
-
Link Mauve
Thanks. :)
-
dwd
Ge0rG, I hope not.
-
Kev
On-list.
-
Ge0rG
dwd: ^
-
Kev
Did I do that right?
- jonas’ squints at Kev
-
Ge0rG
Don't make me sad, Council comrades.
-
jonas’
☭
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: do you want me to pile up more changes into #841?
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, asking me as editor?
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: yes
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, I have no strong opinion one way or the other.
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: I'd like to have a single revision block for everything between CS-2019 and Final CS-2020.
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, if you do, remind me at least 24h before the next meeting about merging it
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, that’s not going to be possible
-
jonas’
we need to make a release prior to LC
-
jonas’
and there will be feedback during LC which needs a separate revision block
-
dwd
Ge0rG, I'd rather we merged and published on a release early/often kind of style.
-
Ge0rG
Does that ask for a "Changes since 2019" sub-section?
-
dwd
Ge0rG, Might nudge people to make more comments that way.
-
Ge0rG
dwd: I'm not talking about not releasing, I'm talking about having a history block that's useful in 2020, and not just in November 2019.
-
dwd
Ge0rG, I don't hugely care about changes. People can figure those out by comparing the docs, they're not radically different in layout etc.
-
jonas’
dwd, I don’t agree
-
jonas’
strongly disagree even
-
Ge0rG
dwd: using out awesome xep-diff infrastructure?✎ -
Ge0rG
dwd: using our awesome xep-diff infrastructure? ✏
-
Ge0rG
dwd: as a developer, I want to have all the changes at a glance, so that I can evaluate what needs to be dump to bump my CS level..
-
pep.
figuring out xep changes is a pita indeed
-
daniel
i still would like some clear consultation on how to resolve #840; since this is something that council will have to decide i'm not sure that brute force trying different version only to be told -1 every week is a productive method
-
jonas’
daniel, I gave you clear advice which I think will be accepted by all members if I read this meeting correctly.
-
daniel
unless council doesn’t feel that this is important in that case i'll just stop
-
jonas’
daniel, do you even read what I’m writing?
-
pep.
jonas’, there was another question
-
pep.
daniel> > daniel: also it would be nice to have an explanation of the semantics of that value when sent by the client vs. by the server where. in the label?
-
jonas’
to that my answer is: find a suitable location in the prose of the document and insert it there.
-
jonas’
maybe around publish-options or the disco#info example
-
Ge0rG
daniel: I don't much care about the where. It should be readable, so "in the label" is probably not the smartest place to put it
-
jonas’
probably publish-options
-
jonas’
or that
-
jonas’
I don’t care too much either way
-
Ge0rG
what jonas’ said
-
daniel
the thing is that none of the other node configs are explained anywhere
-
jonas’
yeah
-
daniel
feels weird to randomly start explaining max
-
jonas’
which isn’t great
-
Ge0rG
daniel: PRs welcome.
-
Kev
Personally, I will un--1 it as soon as it's "max" instead of <glyph>, and would accept probably a large number of other typeable strings too
-
Kev
Descriptions desirable but not required in this case, for me.
- debacle has left
-
Ge0rG
I would +0 or +1 it without a description, but not without a feature flag
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, that’s new.
-
dwd
daniel, ASCII character set value, and probably a feature.
-
daniel
max and feature flag have been added fwiw
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: what's new?
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, your requirement
-
Kev
Ge0rG did mention it earlier.
-
jonas’
I missed it
-
Kev
Anyway, +1 on the current version (having just seen Daniel's changes).
-
jonas’
+1, too
-
daniel
also dwd Bookmarks2 should probably explain what to do when node-config-max is not available as a feature
-
daniel
maybe introduce a magic number :-/
-
pep.
Or just require node-config-max?
-
Ge0rG
daniel: the backticks might be less understandable than "" </bikeshed>
-
daniel
we currently decideded on 128 which ~4 implementations use
-
Kev
I thought that and thought it wasn't worth mentioning :)
-
Kev
(backticks)
-
Ge0rG
but +0 now
-
Ge0rG
but 128 is too small for power users!
-
jonas’
I’m going to detach myself from this bikeshedding now.
-
daniel
what is the current number of channels listed on search.jabber.network
-
daniel
let that be our magic number
-
dwd
+1 on #840 now. And FWIW, I'm totally fine with backticks - Markdown, innit?
-
jonas’
daniel, 7453
-
Ge0rG
dwd: consistency over markdown.
-
pep.
Ge0rG, I agree. I'd go with a full u8 at least :p
-
Ge0rG
pep.: 256 would force implementations to use at least an int16
-
pep.
I'm missing why
-
Ge0rG
because 256 doesn't fit into an uint8
-
pep.
I didn't say 256 :-°
-
dwd
As for Bookmarks2, I'm not sure this isn't orthogonal. You need the maximum to be set to at least as many bookmarks as you want to store.
-
Ge0rG
pep.: I did
-
pep.
(*trying to escape*)
-
dwd
Ge0rG, What about with compression?
- Ge0rG summons waqas
-
Ge0rG
dwd: my gut feeling is that compression will be harder to abuse on mobile, while providing significant benefits
-
Ge0rG
I have only disabled compression in my client because the compressor wasn't thread-safe
-
Kev
I think Dave was suggesting that 256 will fit in a uint8 with compression.
-
Ge0rG
Kev: maybe.
-
dwd
RLE the bits, I reckon. What could go wrong?
-
Ge0rG
it's only one bit.
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: I'd like to group 0245 and 0392 into one category. Is "Message display" too broad / too narrow?
-
daniel
dwd, the 'problem' is that to use Bookmarks2 correctly you really want to put max_items in publish_options; and then you need to put some number in there.
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, I disagree on that grouping
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, because '392 also makes sense in the roster
-
daniel
and when mulitple implementations disagree on that number you end up having to reconfigure on every publish
-
dwd
daniel, Not if the number is high enough, surely?
-
daniel
yes. but then you need to agree on one
-
Zash
Prosody defaults to 256 fwiw
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: right. That was also a request for a better name.
-
dwd
daniel, Not really. I mean, I see it's simpler if you can just say "max", but I don't see it matters much if the number is smaller.
-
jonas’
dwd, publishing with publish-options would reject your publish if your max_items request is different from the one already set on the node.
-
dwd
jonas’, Yes.
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, "User handle coloring" maybe?
-
dwd
jonas’, But we know if the node exists at the start, so we're not publishing blindly.
-
Link Mauve
“17:48:52 daniel> we currently decideded on 128 which ~4 implementations use”, I’m awfully close to this limit already myself. :/
-
jonas’
dwd, but then you need extra round trips
-
dwd
jonas’, You do, yes. My point is that if the server supports max, that's great. If it doesn't, the client has to do more work, but it'll still function.
-
dwd
jonas’, So I'd see this as a SHOULD at best.
-
Ge0rG
This discussion clearly shows that we are piling workarounds on top of workarounds. Can we step back a step or two and fix the design?
-
Ge0rG
and by "we" I mean somebody else than me ;)
-
dwd
Ge0rG, If you want to ship a free forklift with every client.
-
daniel
so to summarize if a server doesn’t support max i need to download the node config; see if the value currently set is "high enough" and if so omit my own value from publish_options?
-
daniel
that should probably be documented in the XEP so people who are not in the chat right now know that
-
dwd
daniel, Sure. And yes, we should encourage/recommend/etc that `max` is supported and used.
-
Kev
Or just don't do BM2 unless max.
-
Kev
Actually, in the absence of max, what really is the harm in reconfiguring on every push?
-
Kev
At the point you push you already know what 'big enough' is, and can just set it to enough plus a few, or something.
-
dwd
Could even pipline the configure, right?
-
Kev
That's what I was thinking, yes.
-
jonas’
also very relevant: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2019-October/036506.html
-
daniel
but pubsub is just a cache
-
pep.
> jonas’> Ge0rG, because '392 also makes sense in the roster And in other places.. OMEMO fingerprint has been mentioned in the past, I'm sure there's lots of other places it could be useful
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jonas’
true treu✎ -
jonas’
true true ✏
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