XMPP Council - 2020-03-18

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  170. Ge0rG

    Oh, it looks like the vote update mail I didn't finish went down in a laptop crash.

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  204. jonas’

    'tis time

  205. jonas’

    1) Roll Call

  206. jonas’

  207. daniel


  208. Ge0rG

    Good morning everyone!

  209. jonas’

    I don’t expect a dwd, but Zash was active in another room a few minutes ago

  210. Zash


  211. jonas’


  212. jonas’

    2) Agenda Bashing

  213. jonas’

    anything to add/remove?

  214. Zash

    None here

  215. jonas’

    3) Editor’s Update - ProtoXEP: Reminders - Expired calls: CFE on XEP-0184 - Calls in progress: None.

  216. jonas’

    4) Items for voting

  217. jonas’

    4a) Decide on advancement of XEP-0184 Title: Message Delivery Receipts URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0184.html Abstract: This specification defines an XMPP protocol extension for message delivery receipts, whereby the sender of a message can request notification that the message has been delivered to a client controlled by the intended recipient.

  218. Ge0rG

    That's a tough one. There was some feedback, and part of it I'd consider as "very important"

  219. jonas’

    I agree

  220. Ge0rG

    I'm pretty sure the original authors are very busy, so looks like we need to re-assign or to find a Shepherd of sorts.

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  222. daniel

    I'm very torn on that one. On one hand hand it kinda does what it is supposed to do. And it is widely deployed. It has just slightly fallen out of time

  223. jonas’

    I admit to not have read the full thread yet, so I’m hesitant to shepherd.

  224. Zash

    I think I'll have to re-read that thread. So, on-list.

  225. Ge0rG

    There are two possible ways forward: 1) do some eitorial clean-up and modernization without bumping 2) do the crazy multi-ACK namespace bump

  226. Ge0rG

    all that said, I'm -1 to advance it as-is

  227. daniel

    I'm against 2

  228. jonas’

    I’m also against (2). I’d rather get '333 bumped in such a way.

  229. Ge0rG

    and given my lack of time, I can't responsibly promise to step up to do #1

  230. Zash

    I think it's mostly fine, but some clarification never hurts

  231. Ge0rG

    jonas’: there were strong arguments for the per-message ACKing of 0184 that isn't available in 0333

  232. jonas’

    Ge0rG, I meant to implicitly mutate '333 to do multi-message acks

  233. Ge0rG

    but maybe I'm biased in that regard, and what I see as strong arguments is just a "meh" for other readers.

  234. Zash

    Different implementations / implementers have different requirements? :)

  235. Ge0rG

    jonas’: that would be rather weird

  236. Zash

    jonas’, doesn't it already, in a forward-moving pointer way?

  237. jonas’

    either way, I see we can’t advance it

  238. jonas’

    Zash, but message loss

  239. daniel

    I'm -1 and I'd suggest we do some minor cleanups and advance them

  240. Ge0rG

    jonas’: adding a new version to 0184 and a server-side muxing/demuxing compat is much more straight-forward

  241. jonas’

    daniel, will you do the cleanups?

  242. daniel

    I haven't even gotten around my own xeps

  243. Ge0rG

    shouldn't we formally ping the authors first?

  244. jonas’

    Ge0rG, true

  245. jonas’

    so let’s do that. I’m on-list for now

  246. Ge0rG

    I feel like I'd like to do the 0184 editing, but I lack the time

  247. Ge0rG

    so if somebody wearing a chair or an editor hat could remind me periodically, this could happen in a reasonable timeframe

  248. jonas’


  249. jonas’

    I’ll ping the authors with my editor hat, and if that doesn’t work, I’ll nag you

  250. jonas’


  251. jonas’

    4b) Start Last Call for XEP-0280: Message Carbons Title: Message Carbons URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0280.html Abstract: In order to keep all IM clients for a user engaged in a conversation, outbound messages are carbon-copied to all interested resources.

  252. jonas’

    that’s a fun one

  253. Zash


  254. jonas’

    someone™ suggested it

  255. jonas’

    I’m +0

  256. Ge0rG ,oO( I'm )-1 on principle.

  257. Ge0rG ,oO( I'm -1 on principle. )

  258. jonas’

    is that a formal vote?

  259. Ge0rG


  260. daniel

    I don't think a LC will yield widely different results to last time

  261. jonas’

    I personally think that '280 should not be touched anymore and any energy should go in '409 (IM 2.0)

  262. Ge0rG

    I was the last one to touch it, so: - I was told that "it contains payload elements typically used in IM" is not a strict definition of applicable payloads, and thus not implementable - there are not enough implementations of `urn:xmpp:carbons:rules:0` yet

  263. Zash

    Is version 0.13 the incorporation of previous LC's feedback?

  264. Ge0rG

    Zash: no, 0.13 is me pushing my own agenda

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  266. Zash

    Ge0rG, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0226.html could do with an update, I think it's meant to have that definition, or something

  267. Ge0rG

    there might be some overlap between last 0280 LC feedback and my agenda, though

  268. Ge0rG

    jonas’: the lessons that we are learning from 0280 and 0313 are Very Important for the IM 2.0 compat translation

  269. jonas’

    Ge0rG, indeed

  270. Ge0rG

    so +1 on the LC

  271. Ge0rG

    I'll heat up my flamethrower.

  272. Zash


  273. daniel


  274. jonas’

    the vote cannot succeed in this constellation

  275. jonas’


  276. jonas’


  277. jonas’

    need to check the rules again

  278. Ge0rG

    +2/3/-0 would probably result in a NO

  279. jonas’

    yes, we need a majority of +1

  280. jonas’

    we don’t have that

  281. jonas’

    (and can’t have it anymore

  282. jonas’

    (and can’t have it anymore)

  283. jonas’

    though I agree with Ge0rG and hence change to +1

  284. Ge0rG

    jonas’: yaaay!

  285. jonas’

    let’s see what dave says

  286. jonas’

    moving on

  287. jonas’

    4c) Start Last Call for XEP-0357: Push Notifications Title: Push Notifications URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0357.html Abstract: This specification defines a way for an XMPP servers to deliver information for use in push notifications to mobile and other devices.

  288. jonas’


  289. jonas’

    I think lots of folks have something to say about this

  290. Ge0rG

    jonas’: I've reminded those folks over the last months to put out their pencils and fix the XEP

  291. Ge0rG

    ...to no avail.

  292. daniel

    Wasn't that called before with no changes in between?

  293. jonas’

    useful and specific on-list feedback would still be good, if we can get it

  294. Ge0rG

    +1 to the LC, and I really hope it won't result in a pointless change-less -1 afterwards.

  295. daniel

    But whatever +1

  296. Zash


  297. jonas’


  298. jonas’

    5) Outstanding Votes

  299. Ge0rG

    jonas’: I've got a small AOB for 0280

  300. jonas’

    daniel, unless I missed it, you’re still pending on the advancement of '402

  301. jonas’

    Ge0rG, noted

  302. daniel


  303. jonas’


  304. jonas’

    6) Date of next

  305. jonas’

    +1 wwfm

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  307. jonas’

    +1 wfm

  308. Zash


  309. jonas’

    +1w wfm

  310. Ge0rG


  311. jonas’

    7) AOB I hear Ge0rG has one.

  312. jonas’ hands the mic to Ge0rG

  313. Ge0rG

    to the people who vote less-than-one to the 0280 LC (and that might include Future Dave): please elaborate what I can improve on the spec to change your mind.

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  318. Ge0rG


  319. Ge0rG

    daniel, Zash: currently that is a question to you two

  320. daniel

    I just think that the situation of people think it's a dead end problematic xep hasn't changed much since last time

  321. Ge0rG

    I don't see a viable replacement, though.

  322. jonas’


  323. Zash

    IM 2?

  324. jonas’


  325. Ge0rG

    a viable *short term* replacement

  326. daniel

    Well im2 has very similar problems

  327. Ge0rG

    also what I said above, IM 2 will require a compat routing mode which will be more-or-less the Carbon+MAM rules

  328. daniel

    I guess it's a question of what do we do with xeps that we know aren't perfect but are still the best available solution

  329. daniel

    Maybe I was wrong with my 0

  330. Ge0rG

    put them in deferred.

  331. daniel

    Let's see what the LC brings

  332. jonas’

    is that a +1?

  333. Zash

    Sure, +1, LC away

  334. Ge0rG

    Zash: would you like to update 0226?

  335. Ge0rG

    thanks very much :)

  336. Zash

    Personally I'd rather have simple general rules that don't need to change too often, or it'll be painful to roll out updates

  337. Ge0rG

    Zash: yeah, but we somehow failed to define the simple general rules when multi-device support was needed.

  338. Zash

    Long lists of XEPs tend to become outdated

  339. jonas’

    this sounds like something which could be moved to xsf@

  340. jonas’


  341. daniel

    I mean we sort of had the same topic at summit

  342. daniel

    Yes doesn't have to be on council meeting time

  343. jonas’

    8) Ite Meeting Est

  344. Ge0rG

    thanks, jonas’

  345. jonas’

    Thanks all, thanks Tedd

  346. Zash

    Thanks jonas’

  347. Ge0rG

    thanks, Tedd

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