XMPP Council - 2020-04-22

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  138. jonas’ 1) Roll Call
  139. daniel Hi
  140. Zash SYN
  141. jonas’ ACK
  142. Ge0rG FIN
  143. jonas’ also, no TCP in multicast
  144. jonas’ 2) Agenda Bashing
  145. Ge0rG RST RST RST
  146. jonas’ this one’s a long one, anything to modify?
  147. Ge0rG TL;DR, sorry :(
  148. jonas’ 3) Editor’s Update - Expired calls: None - Calls in progress: None - New ProtoXEP: Quick Response - New ProtoXEP: Best practices for password hashing and storage
  149. jonas’ 4) Items for voting
  150. Ge0rG looks good, but I haven't even catched up with previous on-lists
  151. jonas’ s/catched/caught/ scnr
  152. jonas’ 4a) Proposed XMPP Extension: Best practices for password hashing and storage URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/password-storage.html Abstract: This document outlines best practices for handling user passwords on the public Jabber network for both clients and servers.
  153. jonas’ do you folks think this is a matter the XSF should handle?
  154. jonas’ that’s my primary question with this one
  155. Zash As Dave says, it would fit with IETF / Kitten
  156. daniel someone said on list (was it the author?) that we can start this of with the xsf and if it gets replaced by something else that's fine
  157. daniel and i agree
  158. jonas’ it doesn’t concern wire protocol, it concerns interop to some extent (but not beyond things applying to all things SASL)
  159. daniel so +1
  160. jonas’ daniel, very good point, I like it
  161. Ge0rG I think that the XSF is not the right place for recommendations for "the public Jabber network", but other than that it's probably a good place for public-server recommendations
  162. jonas’ I follow daniel with the +1
  163. Zash +1
  164. Ge0rG +1
  165. jonas’ Thanks
  166. jonas’ 4b) Proposed XMPP Extension: Quick Response URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/quick-response.html Abstract: Quickly respond to automated messages.
  167. jonas’ let’s make this a quick response: +1
  168. jonas’ let’s make this a quick response: I’m +1 on that
  169. Ge0rG That looks vaguely familiar.
  170. jonas’ it does
  171. daniel +1
  172. Zash +1
  173. jonas’ though I’d like to note (cc @ MattJ ) that I agree that actions and responses should maybe be merged on the wire layer, and a flag should indicate a switch between the "virtual keyboard" or "persistent actions" mode
  174. Zash Can it be fixed in Experimental?
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  176. Syndace (spoiler: I don't think so, but I'd like to discuss details if/when it is accepted)
  177. jonas’ anything is possible in Experimental
  178. jonas’ Syndace, I’m not hard-sold on either way, if there’s a good rationale in the document which explains why a split is sensible, I’m fine with that
  179. MattJ FWIW I got hooked by Daniel's mention of spinners for actions, so... we'll see
  180. Syndace Yeah, I think the reasons will be a little clearer after I've incorporated the feedback I got in the past days.
  181. MattJ (this could be another optional flag for response type)
  182. jonas’ Ge0rG, are you staying with your intent to vote on-list on this one?
  183. Kev Is there any merit in considering 'forms2' here?
  184. Ge0rG a quick +1 in the hope to catch up with the thread before it expires or bad things happen
  185. Ge0rG hi Kev
  186. jonas’ Kev, I don’t think so
  187. Kev If people don't want to use forms because they're terrible, rather than solving a subproblem, using to to start work on a thing that isn't terrible?
  188. pep. Kev: after the protoxep has been accepted then :)
  189. pep. not blocking this one to reproduce what happened with reactions
  190. jonas’ I think we need to stop over-engineering the simple things
  191. MattJ Kev, I've no objection to people working on forms2, but I have objection to delaying otherwise fine protocols because there is a dream of something better that might be finished in a couple of years
  192. Syndace The XEP might just end up specifying how to conveniently use forms to achieve what is done with different elements now.
  193. MattJ The use case doesn't call for forms at all
  194. jonas’ the discussion about a potential '4 replacement should be taken to xsf@ please, we have a tight agenda today
  195. pep. (note that I'm not particularly in favour of quick response, I don't mind, I'm just bitter re reactions)
  196. jonas’ 4c) PR#935: XEP-0004: clarify that the submitting entity may omit optional fields URL: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/935 Description: It is not really spelled out that the submitting entity may omit fields not mark as required by the processing entity. Even though the existence of the flag on form fields is a strong hint towards this, it is worth to explicitly state that.
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  198. Ge0rG +1
  199. jonas’ I don’t see how this could do harm. +1
  200. Zash +1
  201. MattJ Observation: nobody really knows what omitting a field does in different contexts
  202. daniel wait. what will be the value of those fields if you leave them out?
  203. Zash daniel, up to the processing thing?
  204. daniel and thats good?
  205. jonas’ daniel, the "default"?
  206. MattJ MUC doesn't define this, for example
  207. Ge0rG the same as if you don't have the clarification in the XEP, I suppose
  208. daniel the default or the previous value?
  209. Zash defaults or previosu values depneding on if you're creating somethin new, or editing
  210. jonas’ daniel, it doesn’t change the logic of the document.
  211. jonas’ it was implicitly there already that fields which aren’t marked as <required/> can be omitted
  212. daniel mhh ok. +1
  213. Zash Tho I believe at least one implementation will reject forms if they're missing <fields>
  214. jonas’ <required/> This element, which MUST be empty, flags the field as required in order for the form to be considered valid.
  215. jonas’ taking the reverse of that, a field without <required/> does not need to be present
  216. Kev I don't think you can fix 4 without a certain amount of discomfort. It's underspecified in both the core and its uses, and trying to deal with it is a mess. This seems like low hanging fruit with relatively little pain, to me.
  217. jonas’ Kev, is this about 4c, or still about Quick Responses / forms2?
  218. Kev jonas’: The PR.
  219. jonas’ if the latter, please save it for after the meeting in xsf@. if the former, I don’t quite see how it’s connected.
  220. Kev MattJ observed that no-one knows what optional fields mean.
  221. jonas’ the PR is just a clarification of something which is defined elsewhere, but not spelt out clearly; I don’t see how your comment is relevant, but I’m tired, so maybe that’s that.
  222. Kev I said that any improvement to '4 is going to have uncomfortable questions, but this one seems to be fairly painless, and helps.
  223. jonas’ ah, yeah, that
  224. jonas’ I agree
  225. jonas’ thanks for clarifying
  226. MattJ I'm not council, but I'm in favour of the change under discussion. I just don't think it resolves anything in practice.
  227. jonas’ MattJ, I agree with that, too.
  228. jonas’ but I’m not going to stand in the way of making our documents more accessible by spelling things out in clear statements instead of having to reverse-logic something
  229. jonas’ and with that, moving on
  230. jonas’ 4d) PR#926: XEP-0045: Clarify that the 307 status code should not be used alongside 333 for user disconnects URL: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/926 Description: Per discussion in xsf@ about the UX implications of showing user disconnects as kicks.
  231. jonas’ +1
  232. Zash +1
  233. daniel +1
  234. Ge0rG +1
  235. jonas’ 4e) Start Last Call on XEP-0320: Use of DTLS-SRTP in Jingle Sessions URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0320.html Abstract: This specification defines how to use DTLS-SRTP (RFC 5763) in the Jingle application type for the Real-time Transport Protocol (RTP) as a way to negotiate media path key agreement for secure RTP in one-to-one media sessions.
  236. Kev 4d) is 'recommended' the right word here, given confusion with SHOULD?
  237. daniel +1
  238. jonas’ re 4e: +1, due to the recent influx of jingle things, I expect some feedback there actually
  239. jonas’ Kev, thanks, I’ll let the editors know
  240. Ge0rG +1
  241. Zash +1
  242. jonas’ 4f) Start Last Call on XEP-0339: Source-Specific Media Attributes in Jingle URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0339.html Abstract: This specification provides an XML mapping for translating the RFC 5766 Source-Specific Media Attributes from SDP to Jingle
  243. jonas’ again, +1
  244. Ge0rG +1
  245. Zash +1
  246. daniel +1
  247. jonas’ Secret hidden agendum: 4g) PR#934: XEP-0167: add rtcp-mux element URL: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/934 Description: RTCP-muxing is used in WebRTC. This element is actually used in the wild by clients like Siskin and Movim (and soon Conversations)
  248. jonas’ on-list
  249. daniel +1
  250. Zash +1
  251. jonas’ nevermind, +1
  252. Ge0rG doesn't that affect backward compat?
  253. daniel it's an optional element
  254. daniel so probably not?
  255. jonas’ in the same namespace though
  256. jonas’ some ~people~ parsers are picky about that
  257. Zash MAY and addition should be mostly fine?
  258. Zash Unless you're doing ultra strict schema validation
  259. daniel well we can introduce the feature for it
  260. daniel see the comment
  261. daniel if that makes people feel better
  262. daniel but in practice i wouldn’t be worried about it
  263. daniel most implementations i saw send this
  264. daniel that's how i even learned about that field
  265. jonas’ hm, writing down that a feature is to be announced -- even if in practice noone cares -- would be good for clarifty
  266. Ge0rG by sending it you tell the other party that you support it?
  267. jonas’ hm, writing down that a feature is to be announced -- even if in practice noone cares -- would be good for clarity
  268. daniel apparently down to the original google jingle
  269. Zash Seems fine then
  270. jonas’ but yeah, not going to insist on this
  271. Ge0rG +1 with the PR as-is
  272. Zash I wonder if we have a Jingle SIG we could solicit reviews from
  273. jonas’ we have a few people involved with jingle, but I think at least one of them already commented on the PR
  274. Zash Yeah
  275. Ge0rG daniel: does the responder need to somehow acknowledge use of <rtcp-mux/> or is it implied by how the connection is established?
  276. daniel Ge0rG, they can or can’t put that into their counter offer
  277. jonas’ that’ll negotiate nicely without any additional feature flags then
  278. jonas’ if they don’t know it, they can simply ignore it
  279. Ge0rG yeah
  280. jonas’ 5) Pending Votes
  281. jonas’ everyone is pending on Room Activity Indicators according to my notes (but I haven’t checked the ML yet)
  282. jonas’ anyone want to cast votes now?
  283. daniel not me
  284. jonas’ we’re over time anyways
  285. jonas’ and nothing expires
  286. jonas’ so moving on
  287. jonas’ 6) Date of Next
  288. jonas’ +1w wfm
  289. daniel +1w wfm
  290. Zash +1w wfm
  291. jonas’ 7) AOB Unless someone speaks up with an urgent AOB in the next 30s, I’m going to cut this.
  292. Ge0rG +1W WFM
  293. jonas’ 8) Ite Meeting Est
  294. daniel Thanks all
  295. jonas’ Thanks everyone for managing this long agenda without any on-list vote.
  296. jonas’ Thanks Tedd :)
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