XMPP Council - 2020-05-06

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  155. Ge0rG good morning everyone.
  156. Zash presses snooze
  157. Zash Time?
  158. jonas’ yikes sorry
  159. jonas’ 1) Roll Call
  160. jonas’ I’m here but was deeply sunk in lua code
  161. Zash I'm tired but here.
  162. jonas’ I join the "tired" club
  163. daniel Hi
  164. jonas’ I suppose Ge0rG is here too
  165. jonas’ 2) Agenda Bashing
  166. jonas’ anything to add/modify?
  167. jonas’ I suppose not
  168. jonas’ 3) Editor’s Update
  169. jonas’ - Expired calls: - LC for XEP-0280 expired without feedback. - Calls in progress: - LC for XEP-0320 (ends at 2020-05-19) - LC for XEP-0339 (ends at 2020-05-19)
  170. jonas’ + a protoxep
  171. jonas’ 4) Items for Voting
  172. Ge0rG I wonder why nobody commented on Carbons.
  173. jonas’ 4a) Decide on Advancement of XEP-0280: Message Carbons URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0280.html
  174. jonas’ everyone is worn out about that probably
  175. Ge0rG I'm torn about it.
  176. Zash I just started looking at carbons (the code) again recently
  177. daniel yes. i don’t even have an opinion on that anymore
  178. Ge0rG I like most of the XEP, except for this one line: > it contains payload elements typically used in IM (...)
  179. Ge0rG Personally, I'd rather roll back Carbons and fix message routing, than entrench the mess. But that's not going to happen, so... 🤷
  180. Zash It's already entrenched tho
  181. Zash IM-NG can obsolete it when it's ready :)
  182. daniel Ge0rG, well some time before the summit I thought so too. (see my emails from january) but after more discussions during summit I came to the conclusion that im-ng isn’t going to be easy either
  183. daniel and share a lot of the problems with carbons
  184. jonas’ it won’t indeed
  185. Zash Is anything ever easy?
  186. jonas’ though having clear semantics is a good start
  187. Ge0rG daniel: right. My hope was that we can invest some work into Carbons to make IM-NG profit from the rules later on
  188. Ge0rG jonas’: yes, the fallback rules would be only for legacy-interop
  189. daniel yes we won’t get around of defining some ruleset probably
  190. daniel or start over with the whole pubsub mess
  191. daniel sorry; rambling; all that is to say that i don’t know what to do with carbons status wise at the moment
  192. Zash With my Implementer Hat on, I have something slightly different from the rules in the XEP now, which might be better, or not. Going to need some time and deployment experinece with it I think.
  193. Ge0rG daniel: you could check whether §6.1 is sufficient and adequate for all your use cases.
  194. daniel does it cover jingle messages?
  195. Ge0rG Zash: that sounds like we should postpone advancing Carbons
  196. Ge0rG daniel: are jingle messages of type=chat?
  197. daniel well you can make everything type chat
  198. Zash And/or extend the LC, tho I'm not sure I'll have energy to post about it in the next to weeks either.
  199. daniel but usually (following the examples from the xep) they are not
  200. Ge0rG or is jingle one of the gazillion XEPs that don't define an appropriate message type?
  201. Ge0rG I want Carbons and MAM sync to become type=headline
  202. Zash One thing: The new mod_carbons acts on anything that's been archived.
  203. daniel Conversations makes them type chat to get around 6.1 rules
  204. daniel but arguably they probably maybe shouldn’t be?
  205. Ge0rG daniel: what about fixing §6.1 rules instead?
  206. Ge0rG Zash ~volunteered~ proposed to fix https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0226.html
  207. jonas’ I wonder whether we need a routing-WG like we had (have) an E2EE WG
  208. daniel but yeah that's the point? so do we have to touch 280 every time there is a new xep around?
  209. Zash jonas’, good idea
  210. daniel and subsequently all implementations
  211. Ge0rG I suppose Carbons has no meaning outside of IM anyway, and Jingle is kinda-sorta-IM now
  212. jonas’ daniel, supposedly, since you send to bare-JID (under IM-NG rules) this would be broadcast
  213. Ge0rG jonas’: that would be good
  214. jonas’ daniel, supposedly, since you send to bare-JID (under IM-NG rules) this would be multicast to all resources
  215. Zash also, is there a Jingle WG that could comment on this batch of Jingle XEPs?
  216. jonas’ which is one of the key reasons for IM-NG, so that we don’t have to touch things every time a new protocol comes aroundy
  217. daniel but because of backward compat you still have to have rules
  218. Ge0rG is there any single implementation of `urn:xmpp:carbons:rules:0` ?
  219. jonas’ I see a few people who have a certain share in implementations (daniel, Holger, Zash, Ge0rG, someone from the Dino folks, lovetox) which could sit down for a sprint and work out rules for different use cases.
  220. Ge0rG daniel: yes, and we need to define those rules
  221. jonas’ and who could drive IM-NG forward
  222. jonas’ I think this is most direly needed
  223. Ge0rG jonas’: I agree.
  224. jonas’ daniel, you have the compliance checker to pressure people to deploy an update
  225. Zash Ge0rG, I /think/ Prosody actually does something very close to the rules in the XEP
  226. Ge0rG most of the rules we sort out will apply equally to IM-NG, Carbons and MAM
  227. Zash As in, the stable release. Trunk now does something else.
  228. jonas’ can someone of you folks take the hat for this sprint?
  229. Ge0rG Zash: the delta would be a good addition to the 0280 LC
  230. jonas’ because we won’t solve this in this session.
  231. jonas’ I’ll be happy to move 280 back to Experimental in that case
  232. Ge0rG I'm not good at organizing.
  233. Zash jonas’, sure
  234. jonas’ Zash, thank you very much
  235. daniel +1 moving it back
  236. Ge0rG But I'm motivated to bring 0280 + IM-NG rules into a sane state
  237. jonas’ I can offer a jitsi meet instance for a virtual meeting, though I suppose you’ll find other instances, too
  238. jonas’ so Zash will organize a virtual(?) sprint on that one; please announce it on standards@ and also ping ejabberd, dino and gajim devs at least
  239. Zash jonas’, +1 for back to experimental.
  240. Zash also +1 to whoever invents <in-reply to=id/>
  241. jonas’ Zash, was that in implicit "I didn’t want to volunteer for organizing this!!!"
  242. Zash yes
  243. jonas’ darn
  244. jonas’ ok, then I’ll step up to try to get everyone on a table, but I won’t actively participate most likely
  245. jonas’ 4b) Request LC for XEP-0393: Message Styling URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0393.html Abstract: This specification defines a formatted text syntax for use in instant messages with simple text styling.
  246. jonas’ +1
  247. daniel +1
  248. daniel grabs popcorn
  249. Zash +1
  250. Zash LC all the XEPs?!
  251. Ge0rG +1
  252. jonas’ 4c) Proposed XMPP Extension: Channel Binding Pseudomechanisms URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/cb-pseudomechanisms.html Abstract: A method for advertising and negotiating types of channel binding supported by SCRAM based SASL mechanisms.
  253. jonas’ even more so than with the previous spec about password storage, I’m fairly certain that this needs to be addressed on the IETF-level
  254. jonas’ -1, even more so than with the previous spec about password storage, I’m fairly certain that this needs to be addressed on the IETF-level
  255. Zash I approve of the general goal tho.
  256. jonas’ me too
  257. daniel > I approve of the general goal tho. +1
  258. Ge0rG on-list
  259. jonas’ hm, I’m changing my vote to on-list.
  260. jonas’ I have to read it more closely
  261. SamWhited This will *never* be addressed at the IETF level, FWIW. The XMPP WG is shut down and this is protocol specific.
  262. jonas’ SamWhited, yeah, I just realised that
  263. jonas’ so going on-list, because I’m not sure that mangling the mechanism names is a great way to do that
  264. daniel But the approach feels wrong
  265. jonas’ yeah, a lot wrong
  266. jonas’ if only we had namespaced attributes
  267. Zash on-list
  268. daniel If only we had namespace attributes
  269. daniel Lol
  270. Zash I'd like to have Dave around to discuss this one
  271. jonas’ let’s not discuss protocol specifics in this meeting; I’m assuming you’re on list too, daniel?
  272. daniel Yes on list
  273. jonas’ 5) Outstanding Votes I lied in the email, there are no outstanding votes.
  274. jonas’ 6) Date of Next
  275. jonas’ +1w wfm
  276. Zash SamWhited, starting the XMPP WG up is a thing we can do if needed AFAIK
  277. jonas’ +1w could be tricky for me
  278. daniel (pretty sure I'm -1 but I want to elaborate more on list)
  279. jonas’ there is the RIPE General Meeting and I was appointed responsible for doing on behalf of my company which is a LIR there
  280. jonas’ I’m not sure what the schedule is and when I’m expected to participate there, so I can’t say for sure I can chair the meeting here
  281. jonas’ I’ll prepare an agenda on tuesday, who volunteers to chair?
  282. SamWhited Please let's have a discussion on list before you all finish voting if possible. I'm open to being convinced of alternative methods, but the ones I could think of were much more obnoxious to implement or required major modifications to our SASL profile (which is not likely to happen)
  283. jonas’ SamWhited, I’m going to reply on-list soon
  284. SamWhited But I also knew this method would be an uphill fight :)
  285. Zash Something something XEP-0388
  286. SamWhited shuts up and lets you finish the meeting.
  287. jonas’ yes, thanks
  288. jonas’ we’re at Date of Next, and we need a chair for next week
  289. daniel i can chair
  290. jonas’ Thanks
  291. Zash so +1w then
  292. jonas’ excellent
  293. jonas’ 7) AOB
  294. jonas’ none from me
  295. Zash none here
  296. jonas’ alright
  297. jonas’ 8) EOM
  298. jonas’ thanks all
  299. Zash ACK, FIN, RST
  300. dwd has joined
  301. dwd Well, taken me all afternoon, but I can apparently get in this room again.
  302. jonas’ \o/
  303. Zash Äntligen!
  304. Ge0rG dwd: how many yaks did you shave today?
  305. dwd Not enough. I don't *think* I can connect outbound and establish TLS to this server, and I do not understand why.
  306. Zash _this_?
  307. Zash `locate iteam-hat`
  308. dwd Zash, As in xmpp.xmpp.org. But not just this one, cerdale.zash.se is the same.
  309. Zash If mine doesn't want to talk to you it should send you a <stream:error> with the reason
  310. dwd TLS negotiation fails, though, so no opportunity.
  311. Zash I see you → here connections, but unencrypted in the other direction
  312. dwd Right, because Openfire can actually fallback to retry without TLS.
  313. dwd Which is what's happened here I think.
  314. Zash for reverse connections?
  315. Zash crazy
  316. jonas’ May 06 15:12:15 s2sin5578e86691d0 debug Incoming s2s received <stream:stream xmlns='http://etherx.jabber.org/streams' version='1.0' to='xmpp.org' from='dave.cridland.net'> May 06 15:12:15 s2sin5578e86691d0 debug Sending[s2sin_unauthed]: <stream:stream id='3bdeff5f-b26a-4635-a2d6-1d37c1ab1db9' xml:lang='en' xmlns='jabber:server' to='dave.cridland.net' xmlns:db='jabber:server:dialback' version='1.0' xmlns:stream='http://etherx.jabber.org/streams' from='xmpp.org'> May 06 15:12:16 s2sin5578e86691d0 debug Incoming s2s received <stream:stream xmlns='http://etherx.jabber.org/streams' version='1.0' to='xmpp.org' from='dave.cridland.net'> May 06 15:12:16 x509 debug Cert dNSName dave.cridland.net matched hostname May 06 15:12:16 s2sin5578e86691d0 debug Sending[s2sin_unauthed]: <stream:stream id='57b0f2aa-5f41-4a53-ba20-3e5c8686952a' xml:lang='en' xmlns='jabber:server' to='dave.cridland.net' xmlns:db='jabber:server:dialback' version='1.0' xmlns:stream='http://etherx.jabber.org/streams' from='xmpp.org'> May 06 15:12:16 s2sin5578e86691d0 info Incoming s2s stream dave.cridland.net->xmpp.org closed: stream closed May 06 15:12:16 s2sin5578e86691d0 debug Destroying incoming session dave.cridland.net->xmpp.org
  317. jonas’ that doesn’t seem useful
  318. dwd Sorry, distracted by Atlassian apparently having a dodgy cert on their cloud hosting.
  319. Zash I see some failed attepmts at dialback and some timeouts
  320. dwd That would have been earlier, I suspect.
  321. Zash after what jonas’ posted
  322. SamWhited I get a *lot* of errors from your server as well, dwd. Mostly useless things about being unable to connect.
  323. SamWhited FWIW
  324. dwd How bizarre.
  325. Zash May 06 15:13:46 s2sout5578e7a3df20 debug Destroying incomplete session xmpp.org->dave.cridland.net due to inactivity
  326. Zash May 06 15:12:17 s2sout5578e7a3df20 debug sent dialback key on outgoing s2s stream
  327. Ge0rG TLS version mismatch?
  328. Ge0rG something like TLS 1.0 vs TLS 1.2? dh keys?
  329. jonas’ 2020/05/06 17:54:43 failed to probe c2s to xmpp:cridland.net: dial tcp connect: connection refused
  330. dwd Yeah, not cridland.net
  331. dwd dave.cridland.net
  332. jonas’ also, why does it write c2s
  333. dwd Anyway. More usefully:
  334. Zash Huh, but this one is TLS'd
  335. dwd XEP-0280 - I thought we'd discussed this in the Summit and come to some kind of conclusion abotu moving the routing rules themselves into a new XEP, that would be pointed to by IM-NG on the basis that IM-NG was Carbons with better PR^Wsyntax?
  336. Zash May 06 15:12:17 s2sout5578e7a3df20 debug Sending[s2sout_unauthed]: <stream:stream xml:lang='en' xmlns='jabber:server' to='dave.cridland.net' ... May 06 15:12:17 s2sout5578e7a3df20 info Stream encrypted (TLSv1.3 with TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384)
  337. dwd Yeah, from * -> dave.cridland.net it negotiates TLSv1.3 and AES etc.
  338. Zash Then it does dialback, which times out. Then some time later it tries again
  339. dwd So:
  340. dwd 4a) On-list, I need to look at what was discussed at the Summit.
  341. dwd 4b) +1
  342. jonas’ I admit I speculated you’d take time to vote on 4b so that we don’t have three LCs starting within just 24 hours ;-)
  343. jonas’ still, welcome back
  344. undefined has left
  345. dwd 4c) I'm somewhat torn about this. It's a revolting syntax, but I wonder if just listing channel bindings, and mandating that sorry, but if you offer it for one it's offered for all mechanisms, might be preferable. As to whether this lives here or IETF, I'm inclined to say it lives here - as Sam notes, XMPP-WG is dead, and KITTEN is probably not ideal, though definitely worth talking to Simon Josefsson there as he's discussed this kind fo thing before quite recently. So Sorta +1 but dear dog can we change this?
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  347. jonas’ dwd, I think quite similar as you do, and I think we should discuss those specifics on-list
  348. dwd By which I mean, on-list to give me some time to think, but if it weren't using pseudo-mechanisms I'd be a firm +1.
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  351. pep. If only we had namespace attributes
  352. dwd I'm not sure those help here.
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  386. dwd Scribbled that listwards, and I'll vote +1 on 4c).
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  388. Zash I'm not sure how I feel about "(oh btw channel bindings in TLS 1.3 are undefined)" hidden away in an appendix in an RFC that doesn't update the channel binding document.
  389. dwd Zash, Channel bindings are in general a bit stalled. I think the XMPP community is the only group that really cares, sometimes, and we're not very vocal within the IETF, so they probably don't realise there's interest.
  390. SamWhited The two channel bindings it's talking about are broken anyways, and I assume even more broken on TLS 1.3 because they won't work in-0RTT mode (I think)
  391. SamWhited I'm only guessing, but I assume that's why they decided to just say that they're undefined. Libraries won't be able to give you the data half the time, or even worse, they will try to give you non-unique data
  392. Zash Found a single thread from 2015 discussing it
  393. SamWhited Link? I didn't find anything when I looked
  394. dwd SamWhited, And by the way, you're doing a great job in KITTEN, pushing this stuff. It probably feels like you're getting nowhere, but I think it's making an impact slowly - but the recent last-minute-virtual IETF meeting has probably drained people of energy.
  395. SamWhited dwd: thanks; I was worried I was beign a pest, I never know how the IETF works or how much I should stay on top of things
  396. SamWhited being, even
  397. Zash SamWhited, not sure which thread it was but a couple of threads from 2015-2016 pop up in https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&start_date=&end_date=&email_list=tls&email_list=kitten&q=text%3A%28channel+binding%29&as=1
  398. SamWhited Thanks
  399. SamWhited Oh hey, if I filter by date and list there's a whole topic called "Deprecating tls-unique for TLS 1.3". Dunno why I never realized there was a convenient list-only search that doesn't involve Google or DDG or whatever.
  400. Zash This is a pretty great mailing list interface indeed. I wish we used it for our lists.
  401. SamWhited +1
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  403. SamWhited Aha, and it mentions an old draft name I never found by searching either!
  404. SamWhited Hopefully I can find discussion on that and finally know what had been done towards this in the past. It's just about impossible to dig information out of the IETF.
  405. Zash I think I searched for the channel binding RFC number as well last time
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  407. SamWhited This works almost exactly the same as how mine did originally, that's encouraging (or maybe not, since it just dissapeared in 2015 and I'm not sure why yet)
  408. Zash This?
  409. SamWhited sorry, the other draft I found in that email thread that expired in 2015: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-josefsson-sasl-tls-cb-03
  410. SamWhited The author amusingly responded to the other I-D I have out right now, but not the emails to KITTEN and TLS about the channel binding draft, so I pinged him to ask him about the history of it and what not.
  411. Zash Endless yaks probably.
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