KevIt's probably ok to let dwd in here at other times than meetings, under careful adult supervision.
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Ge0rGKev: I'm not sure we have anybody who could provide that kind of supervision.
KevFair.
Ge0rGBut maybe the . is just a compensating measure for a client that lacks XEP-0410?
dwdIt was demonstrating XMPP to a(virtual) room full of people.
dwdSo your replies were excellent timing.
jonas’:D
Ge0rGwere those Very Important People?
dwdColleagues. Included both CTO and one of our CEOs, but we're a small company and it was hardly a formal setting.
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jonas’:)
jonas’as long as you didn’t want to prove the point that the XSF is a Super Serious Organization
dwdI usually describe it as a Drinking Club with a Standards problem.
Ge0rGPedantics Anonymous?
jonas’As a strict non-alcoholic, I don’t feel included in that definition ;P
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jonas’as things stand, the other meeting will start only at 16:00Z, so I’ll be able to chair today.
Ge0rGYay!
jonas’Hello everyone
jonas’1) Roll Call
jonas’is here
Ge0rG
ZashHere
jonas’I would’ve thought that daniel would arrive, too
danielHi
jonas’excellent
jonas’2) Agenda Bashing
jonas’anything to add to the agenda I sent?
jonas’(though now I wonder whether dwd will also join us)
ZashMe too
Ge0rGI'm not opposed to keeping it short
jonas’me neither
jonas’3) Editor’s Update
jonas’- Calls in progress:
- LC for XEP-0320 (ends at 2020-05-19)
- LC for XEP-0339 (ends at 2020-05-19)
- LC for XEP-0393 (ends at 2020-05-26)
jonas’4) Items for voting
jonas’4a) PR#943
Title: XEP-0068: Clarify FORM_TYPE field type on 'submit' type forms
URL: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/943
jonas’this is a re-do of #913, which was vetoed for $reasons by dwd
jonas’(digging up $reasons)
jonas’from https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2020-April/037251.html:
> I hate to do this because it's so late, but some of Florian's arguments are sound, and the implications rather more so.
jonas’and a lot more
ZashRFC 2119 reasons?
jonas’I think I still have a nit to pick with the text
jonas’> Data forms with the type "submit" are free to omit any explicit field type declaration (as per &xep0004; § 3.2), as the type is implied by the corresponding "form"-type data form. As consequence, implementations MUST treat a FORM_TYPE field without an explicit type attribute, in data forms of type "submit", as the FORM_TYPE field with the special meaning defined herein.
jonas’I wonder if the following wouldn’t be more appropriate:
> Data forms with the type "submit" are free to omit any explicit field type declaration (as per &xep0004; § 3.2), as the type is implied by the corresponding "form"-type data form. As consequence, implementations MUST treat a FORM_TYPE field without an explicit type attribute, in data forms of type "submit", as the FORM_TYPE field with the special meaning defined herein if the corresponding "form"-type form had the field "hidden".
jonas’(addition to the last sentence only)
jonas’but I’m not going to block based on this, so +x
jonas’but I’m not going to block based on this, so +1
Zashon-list
danielOn list
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Ge0rGAs I read the new text, it doesn't address Dave's remark about clarifying what a sending entity is expected to do.
Ge0rGBut I'd leave this for Dave to sort out (Sorry, Dave), and go +1
jonas’alright
jonas’5) Outstanding Votes
jonas’except the new ones, none.
Ge0rGphew.
jonas’(except on things which have been vetoed already)
jonas’also, thanks to Tedd for providing me with a voting summary the other day :)
jonas’6) Date of Next
dwdSoryr, mildly distracted yet here. 4a) +1, it seems clearer.
Ge0rGLooks like my reading of dwd's counterargument disagrees with dwd, then.
jonas’+1w wfm
jonas’(likely, I might get a thing in which will make me unable to chair, again)
jonas’likely; however, I might get a thing in which will make me unable to chair, again
jonas’for that case, it’d be good to have a contigency plan
daniel> +1w wfm
👍
Ge0rG+1W WFM
Zash+1w wfm
jonas’of course, you’ll get an agenda ahead of time :)
jonas’lures
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jonas’no takers?
danielOk
jonas’thanks
jonas’7) AOB
danielNone here
ZashI've got nothing.
jonas’me neither
Ge0rGjonas’: any news on the IM-NG-WG?
jonas’I sent an email, didn’t I?
jonas’so far, only people who did *not* volunteer to contribute last week replied to me ;)
danielI can confirm that you did
jonas’*hint hint*
Ge0rGjonas’: I assumed that participation from me and Daniel is automatically implied?
jonas’Ge0rG, saying so on-list would be good, since I actively avoided to name any names.
Ge0rGBut maybe it would be a good thing to write down the corner cases that I have in my collection of weird issues.
jonas’that, too
jonas’as I said in the email, I’ll work out details / scheduling at the end of the week to give interested parties some time to announce their interest
jonas’any other AOB?
jonas’taking this as a "no"
jonas’and with that:
jonas’8) Ite Meeting Est
jonas’thanks all, thanks tedd
ZashThanks jonas’, Tedd, and everyone!
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Ge0rGjonas’: done
Ge0rGsomebody might want to translate that into an agenda on the wiki
jonas’Ge0rG, go ahead ;)
Ge0rGsomebody *else*
Ge0rGI'm out for today.
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flowGe0rG> As I read the new text, it doesn't address Dave's remark about clarifying what a sending entity is expected to do.
I think it does, but I am happy to add clarifications if something is missing
flowGe0rG, the new text includes "Note that as per &xep0004; the form field "type" attribute may be omitted in data forms of type "submit", anything you miss in particular?
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Ge0rGflow: I'm referring to
> I *think* we ought to be saying SHOULD send type="hidden" on submit, but
MUST NOT require it when processing a submission.
Ge0rGflow: I'm referring to
> I *think* we ought to be saying SHOULD send type="hidden" on submit, but MUST NOT require it when processing a submission.
Ge0rG"may be omitted" is not a recommendation.
flowahh, I do not think that it is sensible to recommend adding type='hidden' on submit to ver='FORM_TYPE' fields: the 'ver' attribute is already unique within the data form, and xep4 already says that you do not need to explicitly state the type in 'submit' forms
flowhence recommending adding an explicit form field type declaration only for FORM_TYPE feels like special casing, which you usually want to avoid, for no gain
ZashUsually if you submit a form, the receiver already knows the type of the field, so it would be redundant.
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flowZash, ha, that brings me to the next question: a form fields registered by their field name only, or, by their name and their including form FORM_TYPE
flowZash, ha, that brings me to the next question: are form fields registered by their field name only, or, by their name and their including form FORM_TYPE
flowI think it is field name + FORM_TYPE, but I am not sure if this is spelled out somewhere in the xeps
ZashThat sounds sensible.
ZashI.e. it's like xmlns and tag name, the touple is the identity of the thing.
flowright, but then on a very philosophical layer, so please ignore the following, one could argue that the receiving entity does not know if the FORM_TYPE field it looks at, is the FORM_TYPE field
flowZash, yep, I also noticed that this is and should be akin to xmlns and element name
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Ge0rGWhich is really weird and different syntax.
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ZashGe0rG, sure. It's like a limited XML-in-XML thing.
Ge0rGalso some things break if you give them multiple dataforms
ZashLike in disco?
Ge0rGyeah
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ZashTheir bug then.
flowright, i just recently squashed a few of the buggy "that stanza surely has only one data form" assumption sites in smack