XMPP Council - 2020-08-05

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  109. jonas’ Ge0rG, you may be intersted in what I wrote about PR#971 on-list just now.
  110. jonas’ may help guide the discussion about that PR today
  111. Ge0rG jonas’: great, thanks
  112. jonas’ (Re: [Standards] Council Minutes 2020-07-22, really just now, so it’ll arrive on-list probably five minutes after the meeting started, as the list server hates me :))
  113. Ge0rG jonas’: as you'll also only arrive after the meeting started, I hope this won't be much of an issue ;)
  114. jonas’ it also contians my vote on the PR as-is, which is a -1, so if any of you have strong opinions on that, it’d be good if we discussed them now...
  115. jonas’ Ge0rG, I’ll not arrive at all today, sooo...
  116. Ge0rG jonas’: well, that's surely also after the meeting start ;)
  117. jonas’ indeed
  118. jonas’ Ge0rG, mail passed through
  119. jonas’ note that the vote expires this week.
  120. Ge0rG Thanks
  121. Ge0rG I'm working on a new variant of the MUC-PM diff
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  128. Ge0rG Tis time.
  129. Zash !
  130. Ge0rG 1) Roll Call
  131. Zash Here
  132. Ge0rG hi Zash
  133. Ge0rG jonas’ is excused.
  134. daniel Hi
  135. Ge0rG Hi daniel
  136. Ge0rG Do we have a dwd?
  137. Ge0rG Anyway, it looks like a quorum, so let's proceed.
  138. Zash Does not look like we do
  139. Ge0rG 2) Agenda Bashing
  140. Ge0rG jonas’ isn't here, so feel free to bash as much as you want.
  141. Ge0rG I wanted to add a follow-up to https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/854 but will postpone for another Council Meeting
  142. Ge0rG jonas’ provided some more context on PR#972, which we could discuss later.
  143. Ge0rG Doesn't look like there are any other additions.
  144. Ge0rG 3) Editor’s Update
  145. Ge0rG I put on my jonas’ hat.
  146. Ge0rG - XEP-0048 (Bookmarks) deprecated in favour of XEP-0402 (PEP Native Bookmarks) - Ongoing Calls: - Last Call for XEP-0352 (Client State Indication), ends on 2020-08-18 - Last Call for XEP-0411 (Bookmark Conversion), ends on 2020-08-18
  147. Ge0rG okay, enough of the cosplay.
  148. Ge0rG 4) Items for voting
  149. Ge0rG 4a) Discuss PR#971: XEP-0004: Clarify field type omission for 'submit' and 'result' form field types
  150. Ge0rG this is a recurring topic that's apparently expiring today.
  151. Ge0rG jonas’ vetoed it on-list today, with some advice on how to improve the wording
  152. Zash I tried to read that on my phone, it sounded sensible.
  153. Ge0rG I was confused before, at how removing words can increase the clarity, but with jonas’’ remark about type="error" being undefined, I think that it actually doesn't improve the situation and should be reworded in a better way
  154. Ge0rG therefore -1
  155. Zash same, -1, "what jonas said" 🙂
  156. Ge0rG daniel: would you like to add to this?
  157. daniel what jonas said. -1
  158. Ge0rG Thanks everyone. Looks like dwd is going to expire from this.
  159. Ge0rG 5) Pending Votes
  160. Ge0rG I'd also like to +1 PR#963, so that I'm down to zero pending now.
  161. Ge0rG Zash: did you vote on #972 already? This is just a formalism though.
  162. Zash The other xep4 one? I think I did
  163. Ge0rG it's not in the spreadsheet of doom.
  164. Ge0rG well, it's vetoed multiple times anyway, so it wouldn't make a difference.
  165. Ge0rG 6) Date of Next
  166. Ge0rG +1W WFM
  167. daniel +1w wfm
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  170. Zash +1w wfm
  171. Ge0rG great! Let's assume +1W then
  172. Ge0rG 7) AOB
  173. Zash I got nothing
  174. Ge0rG Anybody? I have https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/854 for which I wanted to discuss some wording.
  175. Zash Discuss ahead
  176. Ge0rG I want to add a rationale along the lines of "if you send a PM to somebody who's also your contact, it might be rendered as coming from a separate person"
  177. Ge0rG but I fail to find the right words that are adequate for a formal standards document
  178. Zash Maybe this is more for ModernXMPP?
  179. daniel The discoverabilty of modern xmpp is questionable at best
  180. Ge0rG Also modernxmpp is not a stick you can wield to convince developers to improve their sh... app
  181. daniel I find should not too strong for a retroactive recommendation
  182. Ge0rG SHOULD was discouraged last time I brought this topic up
  183. Ge0rG And then I totally forgot to make a new proposal, which I just recently rediscovered.
  184. Zash Hiding it deep in 0045 isn't optimal for discoverability either 😛
  185. daniel Certainly not
  186. Ge0rG but it's something that I can point developers to
  187. MattJ and you can't point them to modernxmpp.org?
  188. Ge0rG MattJ: I can point them to <anyrandomwebsite>, but it's not convincing.
  189. MattJ I'm certainly not against having it in the XEP, but I don't see that much difference
  190. Ge0rG well, I *can* try to convince a developer by linking to modernxmpp, just to see if it works.
  191. MattJ It's not more discoverable, and it's a protocol document while you're discussing UX considerations
  192. MattJ The primary benefit is that it's XSF-official
  193. MattJ IMHO
  194. Ge0rG but I am focusing on protocol considerations that arise from UX considerations.
  195. Ge0rG that's a very strong benefit.
  196. Zash If SHOULD is too strong then maybe just an implementation note.. but then modernxmpp seems marginally better IMO
  197. Ge0rG also it adds significantly to the discoverability
  198. daniel Yes in any case there is too much should and should not in that pr
  199. daniel Maybe try modernxmpp first
  200. Ge0rG daniel: it's already there: https://docs.modernxmpp.org/client/groupchat/#private-messages
  201. daniel And come back if that didn't yield the desired results
  202. Zash Could you raise it on the list?
  203. Ge0rG Zash: I think so
  204. Ge0rG Okay, so that's probably the next step to do, then. Thanks everybody.
  205. Ge0rG 7a) AAOB?
  206. daniel None here
  207. Ge0rG 8) U-0004
  208. Ge0rG Thanks everyone
  209. Zash Thanks
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  259. jonas’ soo...
  260. jonas’ flow brought up what I assume is a valid point about type="cancel" (instead of type="error", I constantly mistyped that) not having any fields at all
  261. jonas’ so type="error" being undefined is pretty irrelevant
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