XMPP Council - 2020-08-26

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  121. jonas’ so this is taking about 100% longer than I anticipated already and I am not sure I'll make todays meeting
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  125. jonas’ I'll probably be in right on time
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  133. Ge0rG It's time! :)
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  135. jonas’ 1) Roll Call
  136. daniel Hi
  137. jonas’ Hi
  138. Zash Hey
  139. dwd Hiya
  140. jonas’ excellent, full house
  141. jonas’ 2) Agenda Bashing
  142. jonas’ any modifications?
  143. Zash None here
  144. Ge0rG I've got an AOB, and it's called Compliance Suite 2021
  145. jonas’ oh my god
  146. jonas’ let’s move on
  147. jonas’ 3) Editor’s Update - Ended LCs: - XEP-0352 (Client State Indication) ended on 2020-08-18 - XEP-0411 (Bookmarks Conversion) ended on 2020-08-18 (Those LCs were missing from the Editor’s update because of a mistake when using the LC tooling. The editors are now aware of the problem.)
  148. jonas’ 4) Items for voting
  149. jonas’ 4a) Decide on Advancement of XEP-0352: Client State Indication URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0352.html Abstract: This document defines a way for the client to indicate its active/inactive state.
  150. jonas’ I think the feedback on list was mostly positive.
  151. Ge0rG There was also rather little feedback.
  152. Zash Yeah, a bit thin
  153. jonas’ four different implementations
  154. jonas’ I assume that daniel is happy with it because he proposed it for LCing.
  155. Ge0rG I'd still like to see the tribal knowledge codified, but not at the expense of delaying this XEP.
  156. jonas’ (dangerous assumption I know)
  157. jonas’ I agree with Zash that the tribal knowledge should go in an informational document instead of a standards track document
  158. daniel I did?
  159. daniel But yes I am
  160. jonas’ (very dangerous assumption apparently)
  161. jonas’ daniel, you or someone claiming to be you: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2020-January/036914.html ;-)
  162. jonas’ either way, I’m +1 on advancing
  163. Zash +1
  164. MattJ Author in favour of tribal knowledge going into a different document
  165. Ge0rG Zash: the good thing about Informational XEPs is that they are not carved in stone, so they can be a living document of everything we know is good / bad.
  166. Ge0rG Council in favor of Author creating that document
  167. MattJ No thanks
  168. dwd I felt that XEP-352 got "enough" feedback, myself. So +1 for advancing.
  169. daniel +1 for advancing
  170. jonas’ Ge0rG, no clear +1 from you yet, intentionally?
  171. Ge0rG oh sorry
  172. Ge0rG +1
  173. jonas’ thanks
  174. jonas’ 4b) Decide on Advancement of XEP-0411: Bookmarks Conversion URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0411.html Abstract: aThis specification describes a method to migrate to PEP based bookmarks without loosing compatibility with client that still use Private XML.
  175. Ge0rG I actually intended to write +1 above, but then changed the wording to not contain the magic symbols
  176. daniel i think i'd rather just deprecate that one
  177. Zash 🦗️
  178. daniel or ignore it for a while
  179. jonas’ daniel, elaborate?
  180. Zash Since it's set to be replaced by Bookmarks 2?
  181. Ge0rG probably because of 0402
  182. daniel bookmarks 2 replace the conversion mechanism
  183. daniel / has one too
  184. jonas’ ohh
  185. Zash It is a thing that exists in the wild tho
  186. jonas’ I was under the impression that this was Private XML / PEP Bookmarks 1 <-> Bookmarks 2
  187. daniel i'm not entirely sure I want to "send a message" by deprecating it
  188. Ge0rG bookmarks 2 covers the bookmarks 2 conversion, optionally.
  189. jonas’ if it is a thing which exists, we can pull it to Draft and soon after Deprecate it in favour of 402?
  190. daniel but i'm also not keen on "sending a message" by advancing it
  191. dwd So, XEP-0411 got no feedback at all?
  192. Zash dwd, correct
  193. jonas’ no feedback at all
  194. daniel i mean it kinda does it's job in the wild right now
  195. Zash "no news is good news" ? :)
  196. daniel but as far as standards are concerned i don’t think it has a future
  197. jonas’ suggestion: instead of sending a message on ourselves, I post in the '411 LC thread and ask the community for feedback, making the Draft -> Deprecation route as our default clear?
  198. dwd It's an interim standard at best, isn't it?
  199. jonas’ suggestion: instead of sending a message on our own, I post in the '411 LC thread and ask the community for feedback, making the Draft -> Deprecation route as our default clear?
  200. Zash Yeah
  201. jonas’ I get the impression that (parts of) the community haven’t been happy with council perceivedly unanimously sending messages
  202. jonas’ I get the impression that (parts of) the community haven’t been happy with council perceivedly unexpectedly [without feedback from the community] sending messages
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  205. Zash Communication is hard
  206. daniel that's probably because our intent isn’t to send messages
  207. jonas’ right, we’re not here for any kind of message transportation
  208. Zash So, should we extend the LC and poke implementations more?
  209. dwd Zash, That would work for me.
  210. jonas’ obvious reminder that implementations are not necessary for LCs ;)
  211. jonas’ so, what do you folks want?
  212. jonas’ extend the LC?
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  214. daniel extend and remind people that even if we draft we will propbably deprecate in a not too distant future?
  215. dwd Oh, it has implementations. That seemed clear. But no feedback suggests no interest.
  216. jonas’ +1 to what daniel says
  217. Ge0rG +1 for extend & remind
  218. daniel i'm not sure that this will motivate people to provide feedback though. but we'll see
  219. jonas’ sure
  220. jonas’ let’s do that then, the editors can do that "in consultation with the approving body", I don’t think we need votes
  221. jonas’ 5) Pending Votes
  222. Zash sounds good
  223. dwd +1 though if you need it for extending.
  224. jonas’ We have pending votes on PR#975
  225. jonas’ https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/975
  226. jonas’ by daniel only, actually
  227. jonas’ it doesn’t expire for another week, so no pressure here. If you need more time, that’s ok, and we can move on towards Ge0rG’s AOB
  228. daniel yes i'm aware. but still on list
  229. jonas’ ok, thanks
  230. jonas’ 6) Date of Next
  231. Ge0rG +1W WFM
  232. Zash +1w wfm
  233. daniel i probably won’t make it
  234. dwd +1 +1w.
  235. jonas’ +1w wfm, with a hard cutoff
  236. jonas’ ok, then I’d like to also quickly discuss who’ll fill in for me on the 9th and 16th of september
  237. jonas’ I will not have the time to make a proper agenda since on the 9th, we’re on vacation and on the 16th, we’ll move.
  238. dwd Forward planning: I'm off work the following week (ie, two weeks today) so might not be around.
  239. daniel and i'm entering a period with limited availability for ~1 month (I'm moving)
  240. Ge0rG I'm going to be away from computers in the next weeks as well, but can't say for sure when.
  241. dwd Are we all moving, then? I am too, at some point.
  242. jonas’ crazy times
  243. Ge0rG I'm not moving but renovating
  244. dwd Close enough.
  245. jonas’ that’s like moving but without leaving the place
  246. dwd Zash, you hvae to move house now.
  247. jonas’ dwd, no, zash has to do the meetings
  248. Zash All alone? :(
  249. Ge0rG Zash: maybe you can get some voices from the floor
  250. jonas’ we could also agree to skip 9th/16th
  251. jonas’ though I’m not quite comfortable with skipping two weeks in a row
  252. Ge0rG it might be 23rd and 30th for me.
  253. jonas’ I *could*, but cannot promise, maybe make an agenda on the 14th for the 16th with stuff which has aggregated in the meantime
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  255. jonas’ ok, I see however that we’ll have difficulties to find a reliable chair in those weeks -- we’ll postpone this once more and find a solution next week
  256. jonas’ 7) AOB
  257. jonas’ hands the mic to Ge0rG
  258. Ge0rG so I was in a supermarket recently, and they had Halloween ornaments on sale.
  259. Ge0rG And that made me realize that it's time to create CS 2021
  260. jonas’ and you’re volunteering for that?
  261. Ge0rG We had repeated discussions of whether the current CS format is good enough or not to achieve our goal.
  262. Ge0rG Yeah, I can do that.
  263. daniel assuming that there wouldn’t be any changes; would we still want to have a new one just to bump the year?
  264. dwd Well. Has any server implementation claimed compliance with 2020?
  265. dwd Or client, indeed.
  266. jonas’ I hear that '215 may appear on it
  267. Ge0rG I'd just like to know whether we should just move on with the current form or somebody has a suggestion that reduces the churn and workload on the author.
  268. jonas’ delegate to compliance.conversations.im? :-X
  269. Ge0rG daniel: if there are no changes, I'd be fine to just change the title to include 2021
  270. Ge0rG jonas’!
  271. daniel improving the format will be a lot of work and a lot of bike shedding
  272. dwd Ge0rG, As I say, I'd like to know whether anyone is "using" the existing one before bothering to do anything.
  273. Ge0rG jonas’: when reading 0411 I realized that Some Editor didn't change the title of 0402 in the xml elements template.
  274. Zash I still think that it makes some sense to have snapshots of "what implementations do today" and then a separate "what we want to do in the future"
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  276. jonas’ Ge0rG, ha! it’s a easter egg! I’ll update that
  277. jonas’ Ge0rG, ha! it’s a easter egg! I’ll update that, thanks
  278. Ge0rG Zash: that sounds like a task for a table, not for a XEP
  279. Zash or a survey and a blog post :)
  280. Ge0rG Zash: also CS 2020 lists notable XEPs that are not mandatory.
  281. daniel a biannual gift basket?
  282. Ge0rG Zash: you just volunteered, right?
  283. Zash 😶️
  284. Ge0rG dwd: if only we had compliance badges.
  285. dwd Or compliance badgers.
  286. Zash I thought we had one of those
  287. jonas’ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIyixC9NsLI badgers!
  288. daniel ok. i think we should update, not change much, but introduce a new section for a/v calls
  289. daniel *new category
  290. jonas’ daniel, interesting
  291. Zash Sounds good daniel
  292. dwd They could charge around in the undergrowth at night, savaging non-compliant implementations.
  293. Ge0rG daniel: that's a good suggestion!
  294. Ge0rG can we also vote 0423 forward into Final?
  295. daniel i'd be happy to create that new section
  296. jonas’ Ge0rG, can you send me an email to put it on next week’s agenda?
  297. daniel but i'm not super keen on taking bike sheddy-feedback for the rest
  298. jonas’ Ge0rG, although, don’t we want to move it to deprecated rather?
  299. jonas’ we’re never going to find the two impls for Final
  300. Ge0rG jonas’: we will move it to Deprecated in 2021
  301. jonas’ Ge0rG, final is not a prerequisite for deprecated
  302. Zash (and why are CSes not Informational anyways?)
  303. jonas’ that sounds as if Ge0rG and daniel will have a fun collaboration on the 2021 ones?
  304. jonas’ Zash, because, oddly enough, '0001 explicitly lists CS as Standards Track
  305. jonas’ -> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0001.html#types-Standards-Track
  306. Ge0rG jonas’: dwd asked for existing implementations of 0423, so I thought proposing it for Final would yield feedback from implementors
  307. jonas’ Ge0rG, I see
  308. jonas’ we’re running out of time
  309. jonas’ you can continue to discuss this here or in xsf@, but I’ll have to step out
  310. jonas’ 8) Ite Meeting Est
  311. Ge0rG but ye..
  312. dwd Thanks jonas’ (and Tedd)
  313. Ge0rG where's jonas’?
  314. jonas’ Thanks everyone, good luck, stay healthy, don’t fall victim to the protocol badgers
  315. Zash Psst, Link Mauve, since you wrote https://modules.prosody.im/mod_bookmarks.html could you answer the LC plz?
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