XMPP Council - 2020-08-26

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  121. jonas’

    so this is taking about 100% longer than I anticipated already and I am not sure I'll make todays meeting

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  125. jonas’

    I'll probably be in right on time

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  133. Ge0rG

    It's time! :)

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  135. jonas’

    1) Roll Call

  136. daniel


  137. jonas’


  138. Zash


  139. dwd


  140. jonas’

    excellent, full house

  141. jonas’

    2) Agenda Bashing

  142. jonas’

    any modifications?

  143. Zash

    None here

  144. Ge0rG

    I've got an AOB, and it's called Compliance Suite 2021

  145. jonas’

    oh my god

  146. jonas’

    let’s move on

  147. jonas’

    3) Editor’s Update - Ended LCs: - XEP-0352 (Client State Indication) ended on 2020-08-18 - XEP-0411 (Bookmarks Conversion) ended on 2020-08-18 (Those LCs were missing from the Editor’s update because of a mistake when using the LC tooling. The editors are now aware of the problem.)

  148. jonas’

    4) Items for voting

  149. jonas’

    4a) Decide on Advancement of XEP-0352: Client State Indication URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0352.html Abstract: This document defines a way for the client to indicate its active/inactive state.

  150. jonas’

    I think the feedback on list was mostly positive.

  151. Ge0rG

    There was also rather little feedback.

  152. Zash

    Yeah, a bit thin

  153. jonas’

    four different implementations

  154. jonas’

    I assume that daniel is happy with it because he proposed it for LCing.

  155. Ge0rG

    I'd still like to see the tribal knowledge codified, but not at the expense of delaying this XEP.

  156. jonas’

    (dangerous assumption I know)

  157. jonas’

    I agree with Zash that the tribal knowledge should go in an informational document instead of a standards track document

  158. daniel

    I did?

  159. daniel

    But yes I am

  160. jonas’

    (very dangerous assumption apparently)

  161. jonas’

    daniel, you or someone claiming to be you: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2020-January/036914.html ;-)

  162. jonas’

    either way, I’m +1 on advancing

  163. Zash


  164. MattJ

    Author in favour of tribal knowledge going into a different document

  165. Ge0rG

    Zash: the good thing about Informational XEPs is that they are not carved in stone, so they can be a living document of everything we know is good / bad.

  166. Ge0rG

    Council in favor of Author creating that document

  167. MattJ

    No thanks

  168. dwd

    I felt that XEP-352 got "enough" feedback, myself. So +1 for advancing.

  169. daniel

    +1 for advancing

  170. jonas’

    Ge0rG, no clear +1 from you yet, intentionally?

  171. Ge0rG

    oh sorry

  172. Ge0rG


  173. jonas’


  174. jonas’

    4b) Decide on Advancement of XEP-0411: Bookmarks Conversion URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0411.html Abstract: aThis specification describes a method to migrate to PEP based bookmarks without loosing compatibility with client that still use Private XML.

  175. Ge0rG

    I actually intended to write +1 above, but then changed the wording to not contain the magic symbols

  176. daniel

    i think i'd rather just deprecate that one

  177. Zash


  178. daniel

    or ignore it for a while

  179. jonas’

    daniel, elaborate?

  180. Zash

    Since it's set to be replaced by Bookmarks 2?

  181. Ge0rG

    probably because of 0402

  182. daniel

    bookmarks 2 replace the conversion mechanism

  183. daniel

    / has one too

  184. jonas’


  185. Zash

    It is a thing that exists in the wild tho

  186. jonas’

    I was under the impression that this was Private XML / PEP Bookmarks 1 <-> Bookmarks 2

  187. daniel

    i'm not entirely sure I want to "send a message" by deprecating it

  188. Ge0rG

    bookmarks 2 covers the bookmarks 2 conversion, optionally.

  189. jonas’

    if it is a thing which exists, we can pull it to Draft and soon after Deprecate it in favour of 402?

  190. daniel

    but i'm also not keen on "sending a message" by advancing it

  191. dwd

    So, XEP-0411 got no feedback at all?

  192. Zash

    dwd, correct

  193. jonas’

    no feedback at all

  194. daniel

    i mean it kinda does it's job in the wild right now

  195. Zash

    "no news is good news" ? :)

  196. daniel

    but as far as standards are concerned i don’t think it has a future

  197. jonas’

    suggestion: instead of sending a message on ourselves, I post in the '411 LC thread and ask the community for feedback, making the Draft -> Deprecation route as our default clear?

  198. dwd

    It's an interim standard at best, isn't it?

  199. jonas’

    suggestion: instead of sending a message on our own, I post in the '411 LC thread and ask the community for feedback, making the Draft -> Deprecation route as our default clear?

  200. Zash


  201. jonas’

    I get the impression that (parts of) the community haven’t been happy with council perceivedly unanimously sending messages

  202. jonas’

    I get the impression that (parts of) the community haven’t been happy with council perceivedly unexpectedly [without feedback from the community] sending messages

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  205. Zash

    Communication is hard

  206. daniel

    that's probably because our intent isn’t to send messages

  207. jonas’

    right, we’re not here for any kind of message transportation

  208. Zash

    So, should we extend the LC and poke implementations more?

  209. dwd

    Zash, That would work for me.

  210. jonas’

    obvious reminder that implementations are not necessary for LCs ;)

  211. jonas’

    so, what do you folks want?

  212. jonas’

    extend the LC?

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  214. daniel

    extend and remind people that even if we draft we will propbably deprecate in a not too distant future?

  215. dwd

    Oh, it has implementations. That seemed clear. But no feedback suggests no interest.

  216. jonas’

    +1 to what daniel says

  217. Ge0rG

    +1 for extend & remind

  218. daniel

    i'm not sure that this will motivate people to provide feedback though. but we'll see

  219. jonas’


  220. jonas’

    let’s do that then, the editors can do that "in consultation with the approving body", I don’t think we need votes

  221. jonas’

    5) Pending Votes

  222. Zash

    sounds good

  223. dwd

    +1 though if you need it for extending.

  224. jonas’

    We have pending votes on PR#975

  225. jonas’


  226. jonas’

    by daniel only, actually

  227. jonas’

    it doesn’t expire for another week, so no pressure here. If you need more time, that’s ok, and we can move on towards Ge0rG’s AOB

  228. daniel

    yes i'm aware. but still on list

  229. jonas’

    ok, thanks

  230. jonas’

    6) Date of Next

  231. Ge0rG

    +1W WFM

  232. Zash

    +1w wfm

  233. daniel

    i probably won’t make it

  234. dwd

    +1 +1w.

  235. jonas’

    +1w wfm, with a hard cutoff

  236. jonas’

    ok, then I’d like to also quickly discuss who’ll fill in for me on the 9th and 16th of september

  237. jonas’

    I will not have the time to make a proper agenda since on the 9th, we’re on vacation and on the 16th, we’ll move.

  238. dwd

    Forward planning: I'm off work the following week (ie, two weeks today) so might not be around.

  239. daniel

    and i'm entering a period with limited availability for ~1 month (I'm moving)

  240. Ge0rG

    I'm going to be away from computers in the next weeks as well, but can't say for sure when.

  241. dwd

    Are we all moving, then? I am too, at some point.

  242. jonas’

    crazy times

  243. Ge0rG

    I'm not moving but renovating

  244. dwd

    Close enough.

  245. jonas’

    that’s like moving but without leaving the place

  246. dwd

    Zash, you hvae to move house now.

  247. jonas’

    dwd, no, zash has to do the meetings

  248. Zash

    All alone? :(

  249. Ge0rG

    Zash: maybe you can get some voices from the floor

  250. jonas’

    we could also agree to skip 9th/16th

  251. jonas’

    though I’m not quite comfortable with skipping two weeks in a row

  252. Ge0rG

    it might be 23rd and 30th for me.

  253. jonas’

    I *could*, but cannot promise, maybe make an agenda on the 14th for the 16th with stuff which has aggregated in the meantime

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  255. jonas’

    ok, I see however that we’ll have difficulties to find a reliable chair in those weeks -- we’ll postpone this once more and find a solution next week

  256. jonas’

    7) AOB

  257. jonas’ hands the mic to Ge0rG

  258. Ge0rG

    so I was in a supermarket recently, and they had Halloween ornaments on sale.

  259. Ge0rG

    And that made me realize that it's time to create CS 2021

  260. jonas’

    and you’re volunteering for that?

  261. Ge0rG

    We had repeated discussions of whether the current CS format is good enough or not to achieve our goal.

  262. Ge0rG

    Yeah, I can do that.

  263. daniel

    assuming that there wouldn’t be any changes; would we still want to have a new one just to bump the year?

  264. dwd

    Well. Has any server implementation claimed compliance with 2020?

  265. dwd

    Or client, indeed.

  266. jonas’

    I hear that '215 may appear on it

  267. Ge0rG

    I'd just like to know whether we should just move on with the current form or somebody has a suggestion that reduces the churn and workload on the author.

  268. jonas’

    delegate to compliance.conversations.im? :-X

  269. Ge0rG

    daniel: if there are no changes, I'd be fine to just change the title to include 2021

  270. Ge0rG


  271. daniel

    improving the format will be a lot of work and a lot of bike shedding

  272. dwd

    Ge0rG, As I say, I'd like to know whether anyone is "using" the existing one before bothering to do anything.

  273. Ge0rG

    jonas’: when reading 0411 I realized that Some Editor didn't change the title of 0402 in the xml elements template.

  274. Zash

    I still think that it makes some sense to have snapshots of "what implementations do today" and then a separate "what we want to do in the future"

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  276. jonas’

    Ge0rG, ha! it’s a easter egg! I’ll update that

  277. jonas’

    Ge0rG, ha! it’s a easter egg! I’ll update that, thanks

  278. Ge0rG

    Zash: that sounds like a task for a table, not for a XEP

  279. Zash

    or a survey and a blog post :)

  280. Ge0rG

    Zash: also CS 2020 lists notable XEPs that are not mandatory.

  281. daniel

    a biannual gift basket?

  282. Ge0rG

    Zash: you just volunteered, right?

  283. Zash


  284. Ge0rG

    dwd: if only we had compliance badges.

  285. dwd

    Or compliance badgers.

  286. Zash

    I thought we had one of those

  287. jonas’

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIyixC9NsLI badgers!

  288. daniel

    ok. i think we should update, not change much, but introduce a new section for a/v calls

  289. daniel

    *new category

  290. jonas’

    daniel, interesting

  291. Zash

    Sounds good daniel

  292. dwd

    They could charge around in the undergrowth at night, savaging non-compliant implementations.

  293. Ge0rG

    daniel: that's a good suggestion!

  294. Ge0rG

    can we also vote 0423 forward into Final?

  295. daniel

    i'd be happy to create that new section

  296. jonas’

    Ge0rG, can you send me an email to put it on next week’s agenda?

  297. daniel

    but i'm not super keen on taking bike sheddy-feedback for the rest

  298. jonas’

    Ge0rG, although, don’t we want to move it to deprecated rather?

  299. jonas’

    we’re never going to find the two impls for Final

  300. Ge0rG

    jonas’: we will move it to Deprecated in 2021

  301. jonas’

    Ge0rG, final is not a prerequisite for deprecated

  302. Zash

    (and why are CSes not Informational anyways?)

  303. jonas’

    that sounds as if Ge0rG and daniel will have a fun collaboration on the 2021 ones?

  304. jonas’

    Zash, because, oddly enough, '0001 explicitly lists CS as Standards Track

  305. jonas’

    -> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0001.html#types-Standards-Track

  306. Ge0rG

    jonas’: dwd asked for existing implementations of 0423, so I thought proposing it for Final would yield feedback from implementors

  307. jonas’

    Ge0rG, I see

  308. jonas’

    we’re running out of time

  309. jonas’

    you can continue to discuss this here or in xsf@, but I’ll have to step out

  310. jonas’

    8) Ite Meeting Est

  311. Ge0rG

    but ye..

  312. dwd

    Thanks jonas’ (and Tedd)

  313. Ge0rG

    where's jonas’?

  314. jonas’

    Thanks everyone, good luck, stay healthy, don’t fall victim to the protocol badgers

  315. Zash

    Psst, Link Mauve, since you wrote https://modules.prosody.im/mod_bookmarks.html could you answer the LC plz?

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