XMPP Council - 2020-09-23


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  72. jonas’ it is time
  73. jonas’ 1) Roll Call
  74. jonas’ Fear Not For I Have Returned
  75. jonas’ let’s do an allround ping ... Ge0rG, Zash, dwd, daniel.
  76. Zash Here
  77. Zash Perfect timeing, just started preparing dinner.
  78. jonas’ perfect!
  79. daniel Ho
  80. jonas’ I was under the impression that we’d have a dwd today, but maybe he’ll appear. Either way, we’re quorum’d, so let’s continue
  81. jonas’ 2) Agenda Bashing
  82. jonas’ any modifications?
  83. dwd I have appeared.
  84. jonas’ weeeee
  85. jonas’ assuming no modifications
  86. Zash Possible AOB: What's up with reactions &c
  87. jonas’ 3) (No) Editor’s Update I’m still catching up on things
  88. jonas’ Zash, I hope I’ll remember that until the AOB section
  89. jonas’ 4) Items for voting
  90. jonas’ 4a) XEP-0060: Disallow '=' and ';' in NodeIDs to allow use in URIs and refer to PRECIS Stringprep URL: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/983 Abstract: This PR limits node IDs by disallowing the characters '=' and ';'. The reason is that currently it is possible to forge possibly dangerous PubSub node IDs when used in URIs.
  91. dwd The node id is meant to be URL-encoded, surely?
  92. jonas’ I was surprised by this and I’m going to be on-list with a default to -1 because: This is fixing the problem on the wrong end; the node ID should simply be URL-encoded.
  93. jonas’ the on-list is s.t. the author still has a chance to defend themselves
  94. daniel On list
  95. dwd I'll go -1. If I'm being an idiot, vanitasvitae knows where to find me. :-)
  96. jonas’ I stopped reading at that point, I’m also uncertain about the correctness of the statements w.r.t. the stringprepping and stuff
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  98. jonas’ dwd, that’s not a valid reasoning for a -1 ;P
  99. Zash -1. The URI bit seems wrong and the PRECIS part ought to have been a separate PR.
  100. jonas’ that’s true for sure, Zash
  101. jonas’ the second part is true for sure, Zash
  102. Zash I can on-list until we get a comment from an URI expert :)
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  104. jonas’ 5) Pending Votes
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  106. jonas’ I think everything expired while I was away and AFAICT no new votes have been started?
  107. Zash Sounds plausible.
  108. jonas’ I didn’t see anything from scanning the minutes or the SoD
  109. jonas’ so I’m assuming that’s true
  110. jonas’ 6) Date of Next
  111. jonas’ +1w wfm
  112. dwd +1
  113. daniel +1w wfm
  114. Zash +1w wfm
  115. jonas’ excellent
  116. jonas’ 7) AOB
  117. jonas’ hands the mic to Zash
  118. dwd Should we be doing a drum-roll?
  119. Zash Reactions came up in the Dino room the other day. From what I can scrape off of logs and lists, we're waiting for someone to figure out how it would work with ... that other XEP for attaching messages to other messages (name escapes me)·
  120. dwd Ah.
  121. Zash I'm wondering what's status of all that? It's been quiet since early this year.
  122. jonas’ fastening
  123. Zash That's the one.
  124. jonas’ I think the folks involved got hit not just by the covid fallout
  125. jonas’ I seem to recall Kev apologising in xsf@ because the year has been quite terrible for him.
  126. jonas’ (maybe we don’t need the above statement that explicitly in the minutes)
  127. dwd Well, we did, I think. Loosely, Kev proposed Fastening, we expanded that into MAM-FC, but we were expecting the original authors to use that for reactions.
  128. dwd That said, I have been somewhat crazily busy this year, and I know tere's an outstanding comment against MAM-FC with one of the Tigase folks pointing out that you can't use it for both paging and refresh-since.
  129. Zash Understandable.
  130. jonas’ Does anyone want to put a hat on for this?
  131. Zash Anything we can do other than wait for relevant authors to recover?
  132. jonas’ technically, there is a lot we can do
  133. jonas’ the question is if we find someone to do it
  134. dwd But I do actually have to implement this. Since Doctors and Nurses want to react to things. So that means doing Reactions as well, which means someone writing that spec - I'd really rather it weren't me, but I can if needs be.
  135. jonas’ dwd, maybe you can poke the original author folks for a collaboration.
  136. jonas’ on the spec that is
  137. jonas’ that’s probably better, even if they cannot implement it right away, than you going alone
  138. dwd jonas’, Well, the only feedback I had from them was that they didn't like it.
  139. Zash I got the impression that they did not like fastening very much.
  140. jonas’ me too
  141. dwd I think their argument was strictly that there should be no generic support for anything.
  142. jonas’ so I suggest that you, dwd, with a concrete implementation case, set up a call with them to discuss how to move forward
  143. jonas’ call because high-bandwidth will be better for resolving this conflict IMO
  144. jonas’ dwd, do you think that’d work?
  145. jonas’ (oh, now I also see typing notifications)
  146. Ge0rG Like the call about message routing and persistence that we had earlier this year?
  147. eta what's MAM-FC?
  148. jonas’ Ge0rG, hi, welcome, we missed you too, thanks for this constructive and not at all passive aggressive comment!
  149. dwd In all honesty I don't see any desire from them to work on a general solution in this space, which means there's zero common ground or even goal.
  150. jonas’ eta, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0427.html
  151. jonas’ dwd, I’d still suggest such a meeting
  152. jonas’ impressions can be misleading when carried over email
  153. Ge0rG Maybe it could work by pinging them in the xsf@ MUC?
  154. dwd eta, A way of collating things-that-apply-to-other-messages like reactions, edits, receipts so they can be efficiently handled and archived in a generic way.
  155. Ge0rG I think there were also limits pointed out to what can be reasonably fastened
  156. dwd jonas’, Well, I can do when I have time. I'm likely to implement it before then and feed any findings from that back into the spec. (And also loop around the Tigase(?) folks).
  157. jonas’ dwd, see, that’s exactly what I’d like to avoid
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  159. jonas’ there is enough impression about the council/xsf/standards process being hostile to spec authors sometimes
  160. jonas’ and I don’t like de-facto standards because of implementations appearing
  161. Zash Maybe all this is premature genericness and we should just start with something simpler so we can Second System Effect to the max later? :)
  162. dwd Zash, Go ahead and design a concrete proposal.
  163. jonas’ what about the original Reactions proposal?
  164. jonas’ it seemed very simple to me
  165. dwd jonas’, I can't implement that on its own because of the interactions it would then have with archiving, which also cause us massive problems already with receipts/markers.
  166. dwd jonas’, Hence MAM-FC, which should address both cases.
  167. dwd jonas’, But since it didn't handle another imaginary case involving clapping for blog posts, one person complained.
  168. Ge0rG What kind of interactions with archiving beyond a special parser for the reference syntax in your MAM implementation?
  169. pep. What if people just have different use-cases and some things are not supposed to interact? (just asking)
  170. dwd If you don't like my design, PLEASE make a counter proposal.
  171. pep. they made one already
  172. pep. an original* proposal
  173. Zash How about we wrap up the meeting and continue in xsf@?
  174. dwd No, we have reactions on their own. That's trivial. We could have a collation for those, specifically, but then you have to have a specific collation for every kind of thing, which involves heavyweight stanza inspection and archiving design within the server, which is painful.
  175. jonas’ that sounds like a reasonable proposal
  176. jonas’ closing the meeting sounds like a reasonable proposal
  177. Zash Seems there are still unresolved issues that needs to be worked out
  178. jonas’ 8) Ite Meeting Est
  179. jonas’ please move the discussion to xsf@, the authors are also more likely to be active there I think
  180. Zash Thanks jonas’, Tedd, et all
  181. Ge0rG What about AOAOBs?
  182. Zash :O
  183. dwd Ge0rG, Did you want to talk about carbons?
  184. jonas’ Ge0rG, running out of meeting time :)
  185. Ge0rG I wanted to report from the Board meeting and remind of CS21
  186. jonas’ Ge0rG, do that here and now then
  187. Ge0rG Last week in the Board meeting it was established that The Designer apparently vanished and that anybody can move forward with any variant of Badges. Tedd hinted on doing some more work on this.
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  189. Ge0rG The idea to have a compliance page on the home page was approved and Seve kinda sorta volunteered to take care of it
  190. Ge0rG Also it's time to move forward with the CS21 XEP so that we don't end up with it published some time in 2021
  191. Ge0rG daniel: any news on the A/V ETA?
  192. daniel No
  193. daniel I'm still in the process of moving
  194. daniel But once I'm done I'll take care of that
  195. Ge0rG Would it make sense to give the XEP a number before that?
  196. dwd Yes.
  197. dwd I mean, we know (I think) we want a CS21, so we should create the Experimental and bring it under XSF IPR as soon as we can on that basis.
  198. Ge0rG In that case, jonas’ please put it up for vote
  199. dwd Are we done?
  200. Ge0rG Yes
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  205. vanitasvitae Thanks for discussing my PR. I aggree that URL encoding the item ID makes much more sense :)
  206. jonas’ vanitasvitae, glad to hear that! :)
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