XMPP Council - 2020-09-23

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  72. jonas’

    it is time

  73. jonas’

    1) Roll Call

  74. jonas’

    Fear Not For I Have Returned

  75. jonas’

    let’s do an allround ping ... Ge0rG, Zash, dwd, daniel.

  76. Zash


  77. Zash

    Perfect timeing, just started preparing dinner.

  78. jonas’


  79. daniel


  80. jonas’

    I was under the impression that we’d have a dwd today, but maybe he’ll appear. Either way, we’re quorum’d, so let’s continue

  81. jonas’

    2) Agenda Bashing

  82. jonas’

    any modifications?

  83. dwd

    I have appeared.

  84. jonas’


  85. jonas’

    assuming no modifications

  86. Zash

    Possible AOB: What's up with reactions &c

  87. jonas’

    3) (No) Editor’s Update I’m still catching up on things

  88. jonas’

    Zash, I hope I’ll remember that until the AOB section

  89. jonas’

    4) Items for voting

  90. jonas’

    4a) XEP-0060: Disallow '=' and ';' in NodeIDs to allow use in URIs and refer to PRECIS Stringprep URL: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/983 Abstract: This PR limits node IDs by disallowing the characters '=' and ';'. The reason is that currently it is possible to forge possibly dangerous PubSub node IDs when used in URIs.

  91. dwd

    The node id is meant to be URL-encoded, surely?

  92. jonas’

    I was surprised by this and I’m going to be on-list with a default to -1 because: This is fixing the problem on the wrong end; the node ID should simply be URL-encoded.

  93. jonas’

    the on-list is s.t. the author still has a chance to defend themselves

  94. daniel

    On list

  95. dwd

    I'll go -1. If I'm being an idiot, vanitasvitae knows where to find me. :-)

  96. jonas’

    I stopped reading at that point, I’m also uncertain about the correctness of the statements w.r.t. the stringprepping and stuff

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  98. jonas’

    dwd, that’s not a valid reasoning for a -1 ;P

  99. Zash

    -1. The URI bit seems wrong and the PRECIS part ought to have been a separate PR.

  100. jonas’

    that’s true for sure, Zash

  101. jonas’

    the second part is true for sure, Zash

  102. Zash

    I can on-list until we get a comment from an URI expert :)

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  104. jonas’

    5) Pending Votes

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  106. jonas’

    I think everything expired while I was away and AFAICT no new votes have been started?

  107. Zash

    Sounds plausible.

  108. jonas’

    I didn’t see anything from scanning the minutes or the SoD

  109. jonas’

    so I’m assuming that’s true

  110. jonas’

    6) Date of Next

  111. jonas’

    +1w wfm

  112. dwd


  113. daniel

    +1w wfm

  114. Zash

    +1w wfm

  115. jonas’


  116. jonas’

    7) AOB

  117. jonas’ hands the mic to Zash

  118. dwd

    Should we be doing a drum-roll?

  119. Zash

    Reactions came up in the Dino room the other day. From what I can scrape off of logs and lists, we're waiting for someone to figure out how it would work with ... that other XEP for attaching messages to other messages (name escapes me)·

  120. dwd


  121. Zash

    I'm wondering what's status of all that? It's been quiet since early this year.

  122. jonas’


  123. Zash

    That's the one.

  124. jonas’

    I think the folks involved got hit not just by the covid fallout

  125. jonas’

    I seem to recall Kev apologising in xsf@ because the year has been quite terrible for him.

  126. jonas’

    (maybe we don’t need the above statement that explicitly in the minutes)

  127. dwd

    Well, we did, I think. Loosely, Kev proposed Fastening, we expanded that into MAM-FC, but we were expecting the original authors to use that for reactions.

  128. dwd

    That said, I have been somewhat crazily busy this year, and I know tere's an outstanding comment against MAM-FC with one of the Tigase folks pointing out that you can't use it for both paging and refresh-since.

  129. Zash


  130. jonas’

    Does anyone want to put a hat on for this?

  131. Zash

    Anything we can do other than wait for relevant authors to recover?

  132. jonas’

    technically, there is a lot we can do

  133. jonas’

    the question is if we find someone to do it

  134. dwd

    But I do actually have to implement this. Since Doctors and Nurses want to react to things. So that means doing Reactions as well, which means someone writing that spec - I'd really rather it weren't me, but I can if needs be.

  135. jonas’

    dwd, maybe you can poke the original author folks for a collaboration.

  136. jonas’

    on the spec that is

  137. jonas’

    that’s probably better, even if they cannot implement it right away, than you going alone

  138. dwd

    jonas’, Well, the only feedback I had from them was that they didn't like it.

  139. Zash

    I got the impression that they did not like fastening very much.

  140. jonas’

    me too

  141. dwd

    I think their argument was strictly that there should be no generic support for anything.

  142. jonas’

    so I suggest that you, dwd, with a concrete implementation case, set up a call with them to discuss how to move forward

  143. jonas’

    call because high-bandwidth will be better for resolving this conflict IMO

  144. jonas’

    dwd, do you think that’d work?

  145. jonas’

    (oh, now I also see typing notifications)

  146. Ge0rG

    Like the call about message routing and persistence that we had earlier this year?

  147. eta

    what's MAM-FC?

  148. jonas’

    Ge0rG, hi, welcome, we missed you too, thanks for this constructive and not at all passive aggressive comment!

  149. dwd

    In all honesty I don't see any desire from them to work on a general solution in this space, which means there's zero common ground or even goal.

  150. jonas’

    eta, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0427.html

  151. jonas’

    dwd, I’d still suggest such a meeting

  152. jonas’

    impressions can be misleading when carried over email

  153. Ge0rG

    Maybe it could work by pinging them in the xsf@ MUC?

  154. dwd

    eta, A way of collating things-that-apply-to-other-messages like reactions, edits, receipts so they can be efficiently handled and archived in a generic way.

  155. Ge0rG

    I think there were also limits pointed out to what can be reasonably fastened

  156. dwd

    jonas’, Well, I can do when I have time. I'm likely to implement it before then and feed any findings from that back into the spec. (And also loop around the Tigase(?) folks).

  157. jonas’

    dwd, see, that’s exactly what I’d like to avoid

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  159. jonas’

    there is enough impression about the council/xsf/standards process being hostile to spec authors sometimes

  160. jonas’

    and I don’t like de-facto standards because of implementations appearing

  161. Zash

    Maybe all this is premature genericness and we should just start with something simpler so we can Second System Effect to the max later? :)

  162. dwd

    Zash, Go ahead and design a concrete proposal.

  163. jonas’

    what about the original Reactions proposal?

  164. jonas’

    it seemed very simple to me

  165. dwd

    jonas’, I can't implement that on its own because of the interactions it would then have with archiving, which also cause us massive problems already with receipts/markers.

  166. dwd

    jonas’, Hence MAM-FC, which should address both cases.

  167. dwd

    jonas’, But since it didn't handle another imaginary case involving clapping for blog posts, one person complained.

  168. Ge0rG

    What kind of interactions with archiving beyond a special parser for the reference syntax in your MAM implementation?

  169. pep.

    What if people just have different use-cases and some things are not supposed to interact? (just asking)

  170. dwd

    If you don't like my design, PLEASE make a counter proposal.

  171. pep.

    they made one already

  172. pep.

    an original* proposal

  173. Zash

    How about we wrap up the meeting and continue in xsf@?

  174. dwd

    No, we have reactions on their own. That's trivial. We could have a collation for those, specifically, but then you have to have a specific collation for every kind of thing, which involves heavyweight stanza inspection and archiving design within the server, which is painful.

  175. jonas’

    that sounds like a reasonable proposal

  176. jonas’

    closing the meeting sounds like a reasonable proposal

  177. Zash

    Seems there are still unresolved issues that needs to be worked out

  178. jonas’

    8) Ite Meeting Est

  179. jonas’

    please move the discussion to xsf@, the authors are also more likely to be active there I think

  180. Zash

    Thanks jonas’, Tedd, et all

  181. Ge0rG

    What about AOAOBs?

  182. Zash


  183. dwd

    Ge0rG, Did you want to talk about carbons?

  184. jonas’

    Ge0rG, running out of meeting time :)

  185. Ge0rG

    I wanted to report from the Board meeting and remind of CS21

  186. jonas’

    Ge0rG, do that here and now then

  187. Ge0rG

    Last week in the Board meeting it was established that The Designer apparently vanished and that anybody can move forward with any variant of Badges. Tedd hinted on doing some more work on this.

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  189. Ge0rG

    The idea to have a compliance page on the home page was approved and Seve kinda sorta volunteered to take care of it

  190. Ge0rG

    Also it's time to move forward with the CS21 XEP so that we don't end up with it published some time in 2021

  191. Ge0rG

    daniel: any news on the A/V ETA?

  192. daniel


  193. daniel

    I'm still in the process of moving

  194. daniel

    But once I'm done I'll take care of that

  195. Ge0rG

    Would it make sense to give the XEP a number before that?

  196. dwd


  197. dwd

    I mean, we know (I think) we want a CS21, so we should create the Experimental and bring it under XSF IPR as soon as we can on that basis.

  198. Ge0rG

    In that case, jonas’ please put it up for vote

  199. dwd

    Are we done?

  200. Ge0rG


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  205. vanitasvitae

    Thanks for discussing my PR. I aggree that URL encoding the item ID makes much more sense :)

  206. jonas’

    vanitasvitae, glad to hear that! :)

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