XMPP Council - 2020-10-14

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  156. jonas’ I have people here who are in the final steps of assembling a kitchen. it is possible, and likely as per Murphy, that I need to pay them right when the council meeting has just started
  157. jonas’ just as a heads up
  158. Ge0rG Oh it's *that* late already?!
  159. jonas’ close
  160. Ge0rG rushed to update the MR
  161. Zash [-- PGP output follows (current time: 2020-10-14T16:50:11 CEST) --] gpg: verify signatures failed: Unknown system error [-- End of PGP output --]
  162. jonas’ uh-oh?
  163. Zash Thanks gpg, not like I wanted to review the agenda or anything important.
  164. jonas’ Zash, https://paste.debian.net/hidden/d557d9e6/
  165. Zash This with the follow-up patch?
  166. jonas’ no
  167. jonas’ I just copypastad from the mail
  168. Zash I opened another email client, so I'm good :)
  169. jonas’ I’ll have to make amendments to the Agenda based on Tedds email anyway
  170. jonas’ 1) Roll Call
  171. Ge0rG It's Time!
  172. Ge0rG ah, perfect!
  173. Zash Here
  174. jonas’ daniel?
  175. jonas’ dwd?
  176. jonas’ I mean we have quorum, but barely.
  177. jonas’ so let’s move into
  178. jonas’ 2) Agenda Bashing
  179. jonas’ I have a few amendments
  180. daniel I'm here
  181. jonas’ thanks to Tedd, because he did what I intended to do but forgot for whatever reason
  182. jonas’ 4c) unchanged 4d, 4f, need to be discussed separately 4e) canceled, because it’s already decided
  183. jonas’ any other notes?
  184. jonas’ Hi daniel
  185. jonas’ assuming no
  186. jonas’ 3) Editor’s Update - Accepted XEP-0393 (Message Styling) as Draft - Accepted XEP-0444 (Message Reactions) as Experimental
  187. jonas’ 4) Items for voting
  188. dwd has joined
  189. jonas’ 4a) Issue LC for XEP-0443: Compliance Suites 2020 URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0443.html Abstract: This document defines XMPP application categories for different use cases (Core, Web, IM, and Mobile), and specifies the required XEPs that client and server software needs to implement for compliance with the use cases.
  190. Ge0rG +1
  191. jonas’ I am +1 on this; even if the LC won’t come to a good conclusion until this council term ends, it gives the authors valuable feedback to patch things up so that next council can advance it quickly.
  192. Ge0rG Daniel promised to add A/V but that's not blocking on an LC, and I'd like to hear more voices
  193. dwd Hiya, sorry for the lateness.
  194. Zash (CS in Standards Track is weird)
  195. Zash +1
  196. daniel +1
  197. Ge0rG Zash: it's probably for historical reasons.
  198. Ge0rG I don't mind though, because that gives us the full Standards process
  199. dwd I'm OK with a Last Call, but I'm a little concerned that without community input this isn't a useful exercise.
  200. Ge0rG and issuing LCs and RFIs is Good, IMHO
  201. jonas’ dwd, I think an LC is a good tool to ask the community for explicit input
  202. Ge0rG dwd: isn't the goal of LC to obtain community input?
  203. jonas’ dwd, I take that as a +1?
  204. dwd Yes, +1.
  205. jonas’ perfect
  206. jonas’ 4b) Request CFE for XEP-0363 or wait for OOB fixes/replacement URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0363.html Abstract: Do we want it? Normally, CFE does not need to be authorized by Council, however, some would like to discuss the OOB integration first.
  207. dwd Also yes, a LC is clearly asking community for feedback. But it's a last ditch attempt.
  208. jonas’ so what do we want to do with '363 and OOB?
  209. Ge0rG I want to see a XEP defining the intended use of OOB for inline media.
  210. dwd CFE does not require my input beforehand, and I am happy to give that input on list during the CFE.
  211. jonas’ dwd, it does not require it, indeed
  212. jonas’ yet, there was some controversy and I’d like to avoid unnecessary calls
  213. jonas’ so if you’re going to be strongly against '363 moving forward as-is, let’s sort that out early
  214. daniel maybe we ask the editor to start one. and if something else - besides oob integration comes up - we can address that in one go
  215. jonas’ if that’s the consensus, also fine by me
  216. jonas’ (and it seems to be)
  217. daniel Ge0rG, I would really like to avoid creating yet another XEP
  218. daniel i think we can just fix 66
  219. daniel fix/'clarify'
  220. jonas’ let’s move that discussion elsewhere then
  221. dwd daniel, That's entirely possible, as is including it in '363, or whatever else needs doing.
  222. Ge0rG daniel: "fix" is an euphemism, but you can surely add a section into 0066 outlining the "Use of OOB for Inline Media"
  223. Zash Or say "Use SIMS!"
  224. Zash or fix SIMS, if that's needed
  225. dwd daniel, I'd be fine with a new XEP, personally, but whatever works.
  226. Ge0rG Well, it was clear from the start that SIMS is the right vehicle for this, but that didn't stop implementors from going on with OOB.
  227. jonas’ ok, let’s put that OOB discussion into AOB
  228. jonas’ 4c) Decide on Advancement of XEP-0411: Bookmarks Conversion URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0411.html Abstract: This specification describes a method to migrate to PEP based bookmarks without loosing compatibility with client that still use Private XML. Feedback = Daniel (author) https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2020-September/037781.html
  229. Ge0rG We can't do much about it right now, except from documenting it.
  230. dwd FWIW, I'm not blocking on '66 for this for certain anyway, I'd like to see what the community says about that.
  231. daniel well since nobody objected to that
  232. daniel my feedback on 411
  233. jonas’ I am +1 on advancing; we should definitely deprecate it in the not-too-distant future, but on it’s own it’s good as is, I think
  234. Zash +1
  235. Ge0rG 0411 is part of the current CS, BTW.
  236. Ge0rG +1
  237. dwd +1
  238. daniel +1
  239. jonas’ swift, thanks
  240. Zash Transition mechanisms being short-lived and obsoleted after they've done their job makes sense.
  241. jonas’ 4c) ... fun
  242. jonas’ XEP-0292: vCard4 over XMPP was Last Called during the previous council, and then rejected.
  243. Ge0rG is that a secondary 4c)?
  244. jonas’ s/4c/4d/
  245. jonas’ s/rejected/not advanced/
  246. jonas’ hence, it is formally in Deferred by now
  247. jonas’ the Editor will clean that up and we have nothing to vote on
  248. Zash I have an open PR for that
  249. jonas’ yeah
  250. jonas’ pinged the author there, hoping that will move something forward
  251. jonas’ 4e) Decide on Advancement of XEP-0352: Client State Indication That was already accepted, hence, nothing to vote on.
  252. Zash .
  253. jonas’ 4f) same as 4d really.
  254. dwd (Very low on battery BTW, so may vanish unexpectedly)
  255. jonas’ 4g) MR#22: XEP-0308: modernize LMC sending rules URL: https://gitlab.com/xsf/xeps/-/merge_requests/22 Restart vote after change from last week.
  256. jonas’ dwd, I’ll prvoide you with a plain-text diff then
  257. jonas’ (to save some battery)
  258. Ge0rG I've done some more changes.
  259. jonas’ dwd, https://paste.debian.net/hidden/6d4c9b52/
  260. jonas’ this is probably unreadable
  261. jonas’ maybe that works better: https://paste.debian.net/plainh/6d4c9b52
  262. daniel +1 I guess
  263. dwd +1 on this, it looks clearer.
  264. jonas’ +1
  265. Ge0rG +1, of course
  266. Zash +1
  267. dwd And matches reality. Though I'm a bit "meh" on the warning, which feels like sucky UX, but I'm very low F-number on that.
  268. jonas’ excellent
  269. jonas’ 5) Pending Votes
  270. Zash UX suggestions aren't normative, eh? :)
  271. jonas’ +1 on the integer-as-max PR#988, but it needs editorial changes
  272. jonas’ see: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/988#issuecomment-707850648
  273. Ge0rG +1 on PR#988 after jonas’ does the editorial changes
  274. jonas’ I do not intend to do them
  275. jonas’ I intend to let pep. do them ;)
  276. Ge0rG +1 on PR#988 after jonas’ approves the editorial changes
  277. jonas’ :)
  278. jonas’ excellent
  279. jonas’ 6) Date of Next
  280. jonas’ +1w wfm
  281. Ge0rG +1w lgtm
  282. daniel +1w wfm
  283. Zash +1w wfm
  284. dwd Well, I hope the power's back on by then...
  285. jonas’ good luck!
  286. jonas’ 7) AOB
  287. jonas’ 7a) OOB vs. SIMS vs. ??? do we need to discuss this in a Council meeting, or will xsf@ do?
  288. jonas’ (quick show of hands if there are other AOBs)
  289. dwd Oh, on the list, please!
  290. jonas’ or the list, if that’s nicer
  291. jonas’ dwd, will you start a thread? :)
  292. jonas’ or will you hijack the '363 CFE?
  293. dwd Sure, but start the CFE first.
  294. daniel I really don’t want http upload to wait on SIMS
  295. jonas’ cool
  296. jonas’ daniel, me neither
  297. jonas’ and if I understood dwd correctly earlier, he doesn’t either
  298. daniel and i'm reasonably certain that what ever http upload does; does not influence SIMS or vice versa
  299. jonas’ I agree
  300. daniel one can obviously use the other
  301. Ge0rG as I said, I don't mind if this is put into its own XEP, into 66 or into 0363, as long as it is documented *somewhere*
  302. dwd I think that's true, but you can't build a file transfer system without '66 or SIMS or something.
  303. daniel i'll create a PR for 66
  304. daniel after i'm done with CS21
  305. jonas’ I like that order :)
  306. dwd And I think that's the experience people have of HTTP upload. But we'll see.
  307. daniel (which i haven’t started 🙁 )
  308. jonas’ 7b) Elections Season! The elections are up. At this point, there is just one applicant for Council.
  309. Ge0rG jonas’: is that a bad thing?
  310. dwd daniel, Could you look at '266 and 299 as well and see if they need updating (I suspect so)
  311. jonas’ I think it’d be nice if I weren’t completely alone on the next council, so encourage some people to run or apply for yourself :)
  312. Ge0rG what's the point of no return for our Council term, i.e. when we must not start any new votes?
  313. jonas’ Ge0rG, in the very last session
  314. dwd jonas’, Maybe you could be the sole Board member as well? Basically *be* the XSF?
  315. jonas’ since we’re pretty good this term with not letting stuff expire
  316. jonas’ dwd, I don’t like board stuff
  317. dwd Ge0rG, The problem point is Last Calls, since they restart after a Council election.
  318. jonas’ Ge0rG, the elections are formally held on 2020-11-24, hence, our las tsession will be 2020-11-18, if we vote consistently.
  319. Ge0rG jonas’: well, we two voted today on a vote that was going to expire in the next 5 minutes
  320. jonas’ Ge0rG, true again
  321. jonas’ 2020-11-04 it would be then
  322. Ge0rG also Last Calls.
  323. jonas’ oh right, expired votes can still have quorum, by the way
  324. Ge0rG jonas’: yes, but only after they expire.
  325. jonas’ so if the council term ends and 3/5 voted, that’s good enough I think
  326. jonas’ but let’s not let it get to that
  327. Ge0rG jonas’: yes
  328. jonas’ so 2020-11-04 is the last session for a full 2w vote, today (next week if we bend the rules slightly) is the last session for an LC with a full 2w vote afterwards
  329. jonas’ so 2020-11-04 is the last session for a full 2w vote, today (next week if we bend the rules slightly and get full editor cooperation) is the last session for an LC with a full 2w vote afterwards
  330. Ge0rG so maybe we shouldn't start any more LCs next week either.
  331. jonas’ Ge0rG, that’d be nice
  332. jonas’ alright, any other AOB or more comments on this AOB item?
  333. Ge0rG and just give the list of nice-to-LC XEPs to Next Council
  334. jonas’ yep
  335. jonas’ although we churned through those pretty well
  336. jonas’ there are just two left
  337. jonas’ 313 and 390
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  340. jonas’ alright
  341. jonas’ 8) Ite Meeting Est
  342. Ge0rG Well, 313 is probably rather contested, and I'm not sure who has 390 implemented
  343. Ge0rG Thanks, jonas’
  344. jonas’ Ge0rG, MattJ asked us to wait for 313 to have his patches applied, and then we forgot about LCing it :/
  345. daniel Ge0rG, Babbler fwiw
  346. jonas’ thanks Tedd, thanks everyone
  347. daniel thanks everyone
  348. Ge0rG I need to re-read 0390 and check whether it has sufficient provisions for server-side conversion and caching
  349. Ge0rG Surprisingly, disco#info requests are the #1 reason for mobile device wakeup.
  350. Ge0rG (also the most unneeded reason)
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  352. daniel that would be nice to have
  353. Ge0rG daniel: there is no XEP for server-side disco#info caching, but there is https://modules.prosody.im/mod_auto_answer_disco_info.html and it would be really great to have something like that in CS'21
  354. Ge0rG can we have something in CS that's not an XEP?
  355. Ge0rG Can somebody who remembers all the security issues of caps write such an XEP?
  356. Zash Does this require a XEP?
  357. Ge0rG Zash: see question 1
  358. Ge0rG but it'd be appropriate for Informational
  359. Zash Sounds good
  360. Ge0rG because how else am I supposed to reference it from CS'21?
  361. Zash :)
  362. pep. jonas’: thanks, I've read the feedback. will try to do that at some point this week
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