XMPP Council - 2020-10-14

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  156. jonas’

    I have people here who are in the final steps of assembling a kitchen. it is possible, and likely as per Murphy, that I need to pay them right when the council meeting has just started

  157. jonas’

    just as a heads up

  158. Ge0rG

    Oh it's *that* late already?!

  159. jonas’


  160. Ge0rG rushed to update the MR

  161. Zash

    [-- PGP output follows (current time: 2020-10-14T16:50:11 CEST) --] gpg: verify signatures failed: Unknown system error [-- End of PGP output --]

  162. jonas’


  163. Zash

    Thanks gpg, not like I wanted to review the agenda or anything important.

  164. jonas’

    Zash, https://paste.debian.net/hidden/d557d9e6/

  165. Zash

    This with the follow-up patch?

  166. jonas’


  167. jonas’

    I just copypastad from the mail

  168. Zash

    I opened another email client, so I'm good :)

  169. jonas’

    I’ll have to make amendments to the Agenda based on Tedds email anyway

  170. jonas’

    1) Roll Call

  171. Ge0rG

    It's Time!

  172. Ge0rG

    ah, perfect!

  173. Zash


  174. jonas’


  175. jonas’


  176. jonas’

    I mean we have quorum, but barely.

  177. jonas’

    so let’s move into

  178. jonas’

    2) Agenda Bashing

  179. jonas’

    I have a few amendments

  180. daniel

    I'm here

  181. jonas’

    thanks to Tedd, because he did what I intended to do but forgot for whatever reason

  182. jonas’

    4c) unchanged 4d, 4f, need to be discussed separately 4e) canceled, because it’s already decided

  183. jonas’

    any other notes?

  184. jonas’

    Hi daniel

  185. jonas’

    assuming no

  186. jonas’

    3) Editor’s Update - Accepted XEP-0393 (Message Styling) as Draft - Accepted XEP-0444 (Message Reactions) as Experimental

  187. jonas’

    4) Items for voting

  188. dwd has joined

  189. jonas’

    4a) Issue LC for XEP-0443: Compliance Suites 2020 URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0443.html Abstract: This document defines XMPP application categories for different use cases (Core, Web, IM, and Mobile), and specifies the required XEPs that client and server software needs to implement for compliance with the use cases.

  190. Ge0rG


  191. jonas’

    I am +1 on this; even if the LC won’t come to a good conclusion until this council term ends, it gives the authors valuable feedback to patch things up so that next council can advance it quickly.

  192. Ge0rG

    Daniel promised to add A/V but that's not blocking on an LC, and I'd like to hear more voices

  193. dwd

    Hiya, sorry for the lateness.

  194. Zash

    (CS in Standards Track is weird)

  195. Zash


  196. daniel


  197. Ge0rG

    Zash: it's probably for historical reasons.

  198. Ge0rG

    I don't mind though, because that gives us the full Standards process

  199. dwd

    I'm OK with a Last Call, but I'm a little concerned that without community input this isn't a useful exercise.

  200. Ge0rG

    and issuing LCs and RFIs is Good, IMHO

  201. jonas’

    dwd, I think an LC is a good tool to ask the community for explicit input

  202. Ge0rG

    dwd: isn't the goal of LC to obtain community input?

  203. jonas’

    dwd, I take that as a +1?

  204. dwd

    Yes, +1.

  205. jonas’


  206. jonas’

    4b) Request CFE for XEP-0363 or wait for OOB fixes/replacement URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0363.html Abstract: Do we want it? Normally, CFE does not need to be authorized by Council, however, some would like to discuss the OOB integration first.

  207. dwd

    Also yes, a LC is clearly asking community for feedback. But it's a last ditch attempt.

  208. jonas’

    so what do we want to do with '363 and OOB?

  209. Ge0rG

    I want to see a XEP defining the intended use of OOB for inline media.

  210. dwd

    CFE does not require my input beforehand, and I am happy to give that input on list during the CFE.

  211. jonas’

    dwd, it does not require it, indeed

  212. jonas’

    yet, there was some controversy and I’d like to avoid unnecessary calls

  213. jonas’

    so if you’re going to be strongly against '363 moving forward as-is, let’s sort that out early

  214. daniel

    maybe we ask the editor to start one. and if something else - besides oob integration comes up - we can address that in one go

  215. jonas’

    if that’s the consensus, also fine by me

  216. jonas’

    (and it seems to be)

  217. daniel

    Ge0rG, I would really like to avoid creating yet another XEP

  218. daniel

    i think we can just fix 66

  219. daniel


  220. jonas’

    let’s move that discussion elsewhere then

  221. dwd

    daniel, That's entirely possible, as is including it in '363, or whatever else needs doing.

  222. Ge0rG

    daniel: "fix" is an euphemism, but you can surely add a section into 0066 outlining the "Use of OOB for Inline Media"

  223. Zash

    Or say "Use SIMS!"

  224. Zash

    or fix SIMS, if that's needed

  225. dwd

    daniel, I'd be fine with a new XEP, personally, but whatever works.

  226. Ge0rG

    Well, it was clear from the start that SIMS is the right vehicle for this, but that didn't stop implementors from going on with OOB.

  227. jonas’

    ok, let’s put that OOB discussion into AOB

  228. jonas’

    4c) Decide on Advancement of XEP-0411: Bookmarks Conversion URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0411.html Abstract: This specification describes a method to migrate to PEP based bookmarks without loosing compatibility with client that still use Private XML. Feedback = Daniel (author) https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2020-September/037781.html

  229. Ge0rG

    We can't do much about it right now, except from documenting it.

  230. dwd

    FWIW, I'm not blocking on '66 for this for certain anyway, I'd like to see what the community says about that.

  231. daniel

    well since nobody objected to that

  232. daniel

    my feedback on 411

  233. jonas’

    I am +1 on advancing; we should definitely deprecate it in the not-too-distant future, but on it’s own it’s good as is, I think

  234. Zash


  235. Ge0rG

    0411 is part of the current CS, BTW.

  236. Ge0rG


  237. dwd


  238. daniel


  239. jonas’

    swift, thanks

  240. Zash

    Transition mechanisms being short-lived and obsoleted after they've done their job makes sense.

  241. jonas’

    4c) ... fun

  242. jonas’

    XEP-0292: vCard4 over XMPP was Last Called during the previous council, and then rejected.

  243. Ge0rG

    is that a secondary 4c)?

  244. jonas’


  245. jonas’

    s/rejected/not advanced/

  246. jonas’

    hence, it is formally in Deferred by now

  247. jonas’

    the Editor will clean that up and we have nothing to vote on

  248. Zash

    I have an open PR for that

  249. jonas’


  250. jonas’

    pinged the author there, hoping that will move something forward

  251. jonas’

    4e) Decide on Advancement of XEP-0352: Client State Indication That was already accepted, hence, nothing to vote on.

  252. Zash


  253. jonas’

    4f) same as 4d really.

  254. dwd

    (Very low on battery BTW, so may vanish unexpectedly)

  255. jonas’

    4g) MR#22: XEP-0308: modernize LMC sending rules URL: https://gitlab.com/xsf/xeps/-/merge_requests/22 Restart vote after change from last week.

  256. jonas’

    dwd, I’ll prvoide you with a plain-text diff then

  257. jonas’

    (to save some battery)

  258. Ge0rG

    I've done some more changes.

  259. jonas’

    dwd, https://paste.debian.net/hidden/6d4c9b52/

  260. jonas’

    this is probably unreadable

  261. jonas’

    maybe that works better: https://paste.debian.net/plainh/6d4c9b52

  262. daniel

    +1 I guess

  263. dwd

    +1 on this, it looks clearer.

  264. jonas’


  265. Ge0rG

    +1, of course

  266. Zash


  267. dwd

    And matches reality. Though I'm a bit "meh" on the warning, which feels like sucky UX, but I'm very low F-number on that.

  268. jonas’


  269. jonas’

    5) Pending Votes

  270. Zash

    UX suggestions aren't normative, eh? :)

  271. jonas’

    +1 on the integer-as-max PR#988, but it needs editorial changes

  272. jonas’

    see: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/988#issuecomment-707850648

  273. Ge0rG

    +1 on PR#988 after jonas’ does the editorial changes

  274. jonas’

    I do not intend to do them

  275. jonas’

    I intend to let pep. do them ;)

  276. Ge0rG

    +1 on PR#988 after jonas’ approves the editorial changes

  277. jonas’


  278. jonas’


  279. jonas’

    6) Date of Next

  280. jonas’

    +1w wfm

  281. Ge0rG

    +1w lgtm

  282. daniel

    +1w wfm

  283. Zash

    +1w wfm

  284. dwd

    Well, I hope the power's back on by then...

  285. jonas’

    good luck!

  286. jonas’

    7) AOB

  287. jonas’

    7a) OOB vs. SIMS vs. ??? do we need to discuss this in a Council meeting, or will xsf@ do?

  288. jonas’

    (quick show of hands if there are other AOBs)

  289. dwd

    Oh, on the list, please!

  290. jonas’

    or the list, if that’s nicer

  291. jonas’

    dwd, will you start a thread? :)

  292. jonas’

    or will you hijack the '363 CFE?

  293. dwd

    Sure, but start the CFE first.

  294. daniel

    I really don’t want http upload to wait on SIMS

  295. jonas’


  296. jonas’

    daniel, me neither

  297. jonas’

    and if I understood dwd correctly earlier, he doesn’t either

  298. daniel

    and i'm reasonably certain that what ever http upload does; does not influence SIMS or vice versa

  299. jonas’

    I agree

  300. daniel

    one can obviously use the other

  301. Ge0rG

    as I said, I don't mind if this is put into its own XEP, into 66 or into 0363, as long as it is documented *somewhere*

  302. dwd

    I think that's true, but you can't build a file transfer system without '66 or SIMS or something.

  303. daniel

    i'll create a PR for 66

  304. daniel

    after i'm done with CS21

  305. jonas’

    I like that order :)

  306. dwd

    And I think that's the experience people have of HTTP upload. But we'll see.

  307. daniel

    (which i haven’t started 🙁 )

  308. jonas’

    7b) Elections Season! The elections are up. At this point, there is just one applicant for Council.

  309. Ge0rG

    jonas’: is that a bad thing?

  310. dwd

    daniel, Could you look at '266 and 299 as well and see if they need updating (I suspect so)

  311. jonas’

    I think it’d be nice if I weren’t completely alone on the next council, so encourage some people to run or apply for yourself :)

  312. Ge0rG

    what's the point of no return for our Council term, i.e. when we must not start any new votes?

  313. jonas’

    Ge0rG, in the very last session

  314. dwd

    jonas’, Maybe you could be the sole Board member as well? Basically *be* the XSF?

  315. jonas’

    since we’re pretty good this term with not letting stuff expire

  316. jonas’

    dwd, I don’t like board stuff

  317. dwd

    Ge0rG, The problem point is Last Calls, since they restart after a Council election.

  318. jonas’

    Ge0rG, the elections are formally held on 2020-11-24, hence, our las tsession will be 2020-11-18, if we vote consistently.

  319. Ge0rG

    jonas’: well, we two voted today on a vote that was going to expire in the next 5 minutes

  320. jonas’

    Ge0rG, true again

  321. jonas’

    2020-11-04 it would be then

  322. Ge0rG

    also Last Calls.

  323. jonas’

    oh right, expired votes can still have quorum, by the way

  324. Ge0rG

    jonas’: yes, but only after they expire.

  325. jonas’

    so if the council term ends and 3/5 voted, that’s good enough I think

  326. jonas’

    but let’s not let it get to that

  327. Ge0rG

    jonas’: yes

  328. jonas’

    so 2020-11-04 is the last session for a full 2w vote, today (next week if we bend the rules slightly) is the last session for an LC with a full 2w vote afterwards

  329. jonas’

    so 2020-11-04 is the last session for a full 2w vote, today (next week if we bend the rules slightly and get full editor cooperation) is the last session for an LC with a full 2w vote afterwards

  330. Ge0rG

    so maybe we shouldn't start any more LCs next week either.

  331. jonas’

    Ge0rG, that’d be nice

  332. jonas’

    alright, any other AOB or more comments on this AOB item?

  333. Ge0rG

    and just give the list of nice-to-LC XEPs to Next Council

  334. jonas’


  335. jonas’

    although we churned through those pretty well

  336. jonas’

    there are just two left

  337. jonas’

    313 and 390

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  340. jonas’


  341. jonas’

    8) Ite Meeting Est

  342. Ge0rG

    Well, 313 is probably rather contested, and I'm not sure who has 390 implemented

  343. Ge0rG

    Thanks, jonas’

  344. jonas’

    Ge0rG, MattJ asked us to wait for 313 to have his patches applied, and then we forgot about LCing it :/

  345. daniel

    Ge0rG, Babbler fwiw

  346. jonas’

    thanks Tedd, thanks everyone

  347. daniel

    thanks everyone

  348. Ge0rG

    I need to re-read 0390 and check whether it has sufficient provisions for server-side conversion and caching

  349. Ge0rG

    Surprisingly, disco#info requests are the #1 reason for mobile device wakeup.

  350. Ge0rG

    (also the most unneeded reason)

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  352. daniel

    that would be nice to have

  353. Ge0rG

    daniel: there is no XEP for server-side disco#info caching, but there is https://modules.prosody.im/mod_auto_answer_disco_info.html and it would be really great to have something like that in CS'21

  354. Ge0rG

    can we have something in CS that's not an XEP?

  355. Ge0rG

    Can somebody who remembers all the security issues of caps write such an XEP?

  356. Zash

    Does this require a XEP?

  357. Ge0rG

    Zash: see question 1

  358. Ge0rG

    but it'd be appropriate for Informational

  359. Zash

    Sounds good

  360. Ge0rG

    because how else am I supposed to reference it from CS'21?

  361. Zash


  362. pep.

    jonas’: thanks, I've read the feedback. will try to do that at some point this week

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