XMPP Council - 2020-10-28

  1. jonas’

    1) Roll Call

  2. Zash


  3. Ge0rG


  4. jonas’

    dwd sent apologies

  5. jonas’

    do we get a daniel?

  6. Zash

    If I dissapear then my laptop probably died.

  7. daniel

    Yes I'm here

  8. jonas’


  9. jonas’

    2) Agenda Bashing

  10. jonas’


  11. Ge0rG

    I haven't managed to do any of the nice tasks I planned, like segmenting 0401

  12. jonas’

    assuming no

  13. jonas’

    3) Editor’s Update - Welcomed Martin Dosch as editor

  14. jonas’

    4) Items for voting None.

  15. jonas’

    5) Pending Votes

  16. jonas’

    Ge0rG, do you want to vote on MR!25, the User tune thing today?

  17. jonas’

    (you have time until next week I think)

  18. Ge0rG

    jonas’: I haven't managed to catch up on that, sorry.

  19. jonas’

    also, pretty please vote, otherwise I’ll have to look up exactly how our bylaws regulate this awful edge case :P

  20. jonas’

    with either +1 or -1, don’t vote 0, that’s not helpful ;-)

  21. Ge0rG


  22. jonas’

    but ok, moving on then

  23. jonas’

    6) Date of Next

  24. jonas’

    +1w wfm, without caveats (that I know of) from my side for a change

  25. daniel

    Yes that should work for me as well

  26. Zash

    +1w wfm

  27. jonas’

    good enough, I suppose

  28. jonas’

    7) AOB

  29. jonas’

    7a) Election Season

  30. Ge0rG


  31. jonas’

    I note that out of current council, only daniel and me have put up an application so far.

  32. jonas’

    Out of curiosity, where do the other members stand? do you intend to reapply and haven’t gotten around yet? still contemplating? hard no?

  33. Zash

    Does anyone want me to continue?

  34. Zash

    Mostly just busy with other stuff or too exhausted to do anything.

  35. jonas’

    Zash, I think you do regularly add valuable bits to the discussions.

  36. jonas’

    also, with the current lineup, we have 0 server developers.

  37. jonas’

    but if you don’t feel comfortable with doing it, I wouldn’t want to pressure you into anything.

  38. Zash

    I'd appreciate a reminder (when I'm at home with access to all my credentials)

  39. jonas’

    I’ll try to arrange for that.

  40. jonas’

    Ge0rG, any word on that matter?

  41. Ge0rG

    jonas’: I'd like to continue, even though I have had less time this year than last one.

  42. jonas’

    okay, I see, thank you

  43. Ge0rG

    I suppose I need to fill out my application before it's too late

  44. jonas’

    I’d also say that you add value to the discussions.

  45. jonas’

    yes, you do :)

  46. Zash

    The thing eating all my time should end Soon:tm: too, hope to have more time then.

  47. Ge0rG

    but maybe a last-second application will encourage newcomers to candidate

  48. Zash

    (like, early next year)

  49. jonas’

    Zash, I wish you all the best for that

  50. jonas’

    any other AOB?

  51. Zash

    I got nothing.

  52. Ge0rG

    I'd like to add a <delay> element into the non-normative example of MUC subject delivery

  53. jonas’

    Ge0rG, there is no delay element? :-O

  54. Ge0rG

    jonas’: no

  55. Ge0rG

    it's probably straight-forward, but one could argue that it belongs into 0203 instead

  56. jonas’

    MUC never ceases to amaze me

  57. daniel

    And servers don't usually add that

  58. Zash

    Ge0rG, seen anything in the wild doing this? I think I have

  59. daniel

    Last I checked

  60. jonas’

    daniel, they don’-?

  61. jonas’

    daniel, they don’t?

  62. Ge0rG

    jonas’: I was as shocked as you when I realized it isn't there

  63. jonas’

    Ge0rG, it most certainly belongs in '45

  64. Ge0rG

    ...when I wanted to tell the Bifröst devs that it's a good practice.

  65. daniel

    No. I once wanted to place the subject where it belongs in history

  66. daniel

    And that didn't work

  67. Ge0rG

    daniel: prosody will send a delay

  68. Zash

    Does it?

  69. daniel

    Mhhh maybe that's a recent thing?

  70. jonas’

    daniel, placing the subject in the place where it belongs in the history doesn’t really work in all cases (only approximating it if the subject is older than the oldest bit of history retrieved via classic history)

  71. daniel

    I last checked a few years ago

  72. Zash

    Should subject go in MAM?

  73. daniel

    jonas’: yes. But having a delay tag would at least allow you do try this with some considerations

  74. Ge0rG

    Zash: subject changes should. The interesting question is whether they should expire together with regular messages

  75. Ge0rG

    speaking of MAM, it recommends to store 'groupchat' messages into user archives.

  76. daniel

    Don't we need this for mix anyway?

  77. Zash

    It should probably handwave something about support for it.

  78. Ge0rG

    daniel: no, and I'm not going to stop my opposition to that until somebody works out how to resync after any kind of s2s outage

  79. Zash

    Heck you could save everything, PEP notifications even.

  80. Ge0rG

    leave pep. out of my MAM!

  81. pep.


  82. jonas’

    so I’d be strongly in favour of specifying that a delay element SHOULD be included

  83. daniel

    > so I’d be strongly in favour of specifying that a delay element SHOULD be included +1

  84. jonas’

    I’d be ok with doing that outside of the example even.

  85. Ge0rG

    jonas’: that's a normative change!

  86. daniel

    > I’d be ok with doing that outside of the example even. +1

  87. jonas’

    clients will see whether the <delay/> is there or not

  88. jonas’

    Ge0rG, let me finish :)

  89. jonas’

    and clients which don’t expect <delay/> are doomed anyway, because it can be added by anyone

  90. Zash

    +1 to this whole notion

  91. Ge0rG

    jonas’: somebody is going to demand a feature var for that.

  92. jonas’

    and if we then also add a note that you cannot rely on <delay/> being there because it didn’t exist in MUC < version X.YZ, it’s ok.

  93. Ge0rG

    also +1 in case we are Formally Voting

  94. jonas’

    Ge0rG, then we add one and make them happy

  95. jonas’

    we’re not formally voting, we have nothing to vote on ;)

  96. jonas’

    someone should prepare a text, which I may do after this meeting

  97. Ge0rG

    yeah right.

  98. Ge0rG

    jonas’: that'd be splendid, as I lacked the time to do it since I discovered this strange omission

  99. jonas’

    will do, I have the file open already

  100. jonas’

    any other AOB?

  101. daniel

    None here

  102. Ge0rG


  103. jonas’


  104. jonas’

    8) Ite Meeting Est

  105. jonas’

    thanks everyone

  106. Zash

    Thanks jonas’

  107. Ge0rG

    thanks jonas’, thanks theTedd

  108. daniel

    Thanks jonas’

  109. Zash

    Thanks Tedd!

  110. jonas’

    FTR: https://gitlab.com/xsf/xeps/-/merge_requests/29 https://xsf.gitlab.io/-/xeps/-/jobs/817295433/artifacts/rendered-changes/xep-0045.html#enter-subject

  111. Ge0rG

    ah, right. subject @from is the user, delay @from is the MUC because manipulation

  112. jonas’


  113. Ge0rG

    jonas’: 👍

  114. Ge0rG

    While we are at it, we should change XEP-0118 to use the new integer-or-max field type for the `rating` element.

  115. Zash

    Shouldn't rating be in the 0..1 range?

  116. Ge0rG

    maybe, but then we'd need a float-or-max type

  117. Zash

    why max?

  118. Ge0rG

    because your favorite song should have the max rating

  119. Zash