-
daniel
Hi
-
Zash
Hey
-
dwd
Ho
-
dwd
(From new house)
-
Zash
jonas’, forgotten about the meeting or nah?
-
Ge0rG
good morning everyone!
-
Zash
Sun went down hours ago, it's night now.
-
Ge0rG
Zash: set your clock to UGT
-
Zash
Do we have a chair?
-
Ge0rG
well, given an excellently prepared agenda, somebody can step in
-
dwd
I have a chair, thankfully. Though no desk, yet.
-
Ge0rG
1) Roll Call
-
dwd
Oh, jonas’ said he might forget.
-
Ge0rG
looks like we are missing jonas’
-
Zash
4/5
-
Ge0rG
everybody else is here, great!
-
Ge0rG
2) Agenda Bashing
-
Ge0rG
are there any things to add?
-
Ge0rG
3) Editor’s Update
-
Ge0rG
Editor's been very busy, we have some things to vote on today.
-
Ge0rG
4) Items for voting
-
Ge0rG
please note that our term is closing, and we need to submit all votes until November 24th.
-
jonas’
hahaha
-
Ge0rG
Can we manage that?
-
jonas’
yeah, it happened
-
jonas’
I was pulling cookies out of the oven just now
-
jonas’
here I am
-
Ge0rG
welcome, jonas’!
-
jonas’
sorry for the delay, thanks for taking over, Ge0rG
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: do you want to have the chair hat back?
-
dwd
Ge0rG, Maybe it's a hat chair?
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, works for me
-
jonas’
let’s see what happens to our votes :)
-
Ge0rG
I was just going to ask if everbody silently agrees with submitting all pending votes until November 24th.
-
jonas’
4a) Proposed XMPP Extension: File metadata element URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/file-metadata.html Abstract: This specification defines a generic file metadata element to be used in other specifications.
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, let’s just try and hope I don’t have to read bylaws or something
-
dwd
This one got some discussion on list already, and seems fine, so +1.
-
jonas’
did it?
-
Zash
Oh?
-
daniel
+1
-
dwd
Ages ago, IIRC.
-
jonas’
ah
-
jonas’
I am +1, though I do have remarks I’ll suggest to the authors on-list
-
Zash
Got a reference to this previous discussion?
-
dwd
Or at least, it all looked familiar so I assumed I'd seen it before.
-
Ge0rG
this looks like it's copying the <file> element out of XEP-0234 for the sake of copying the <file> element out of XEP-0234. Am I missing something?
-
Zash
Yes
-
Zash
(so no)
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, pretty much that
-
jonas’
the idea is to have it separate for use in other specs and not bound to the '234 namespace, IIRC
-
Zash
+1
-
Ge0rG
what would be the way forward when we ever have to bump file-metadata? Will a client send two <file> elements with different namespaces?
-
Ge0rG
Well, given that 0234 is deferred, I think it's well worth a try, so +1
-
Zash
I'm not entirely convinced that another XEP fixes anything
-
Ge0rG
and it's missing clarification on which file elements are mandatory
-
Zash
Experimental doesn't need to be perfect
-
daniel
the idea isn’t to make it reslient against bumps but to better use it outside of jingle, no?
-
Ge0rG
Zash: me neither, but having smaller, reusable elements as their own XEPs looks like a good idea
-
Zash
I suppose
-
dwd
Ge0rG, "All child elements are OPTIONAL"
-
dwd
Ge0rG, Seems clear enough to me. :-)
-
Ge0rG
daniel: yes, but making it reusable will make it prone to bumping.
-
jonas’
I agree
-
jonas’
moving on
-
Ge0rG
dwd: indeed
-
Zash
I would appreciate a pointer to previous discussion
-
jonas’
4b) Proposed XMPP Extension: Stateless file sharing URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/sfs.html Abstract: This specification describes a protocol for stateless asynchronous file sharing with integrity and transport flexibility. It allows clients to provide a good interoperable user experience in combination with Carbons and MAM.
-
daniel
+1
-
dwd
Zash, Yeah, same. Might have been in the XSF@ chatroom, but I'm sure I've seen something like this from larma before.
-
dwd
So this one is SIMS but based aorund the file metadata, so eradicates SIMS, right?
-
Zash
Eaiser to make a new XEP than to re-author SIMS?
-
jonas’
dwd, but based around the file-metadata and *not* around references
-
Ge0rG
wouldn't it be a much more sane approach to just let Marvin co-author SIMS and do all the fixes there?
-
dwd
Ge0rG, For this one in particular, I wondered about that approach myself.
-
Zash
+1. let them A/B fight for the throne of OOB
-
jonas’
the key difference would be "No mixed content, body is used for fallback only and not to transmit additional information." + "Not relying on underspecified usage of References (XEP-0372) [3]."
-
daniel
has there been a clear consensus on that we want this kind of refactor from SIMS?
-
daniel
because SIMS might still be useful for other things
-
jonas’
do we need consensus before accepting this as Experimental?
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: I like the first ones, and the last one is largely political
-
jonas’
ah, from that perspective
-
dwd
daniel, Hard to say, see my notes on communications elsewhere.
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, the first one and the last one are pretty much tied together
-
jonas’
I’m also +1 on this one, same as Zash
-
Ge0rG
So we are going to end up with clients sending three different "file attached" elements for compat reasons?
-
dwd
Ge0rG, Each supporting 19 different FT mechanisms?
-
Ge0rG
dwd: each supporting the same 19 mechanisms as the other one(s).
-
Zash
... but in practice it's all equivalent to <body>https://foo/bar.png</>
-
Zash
Ge0rG, imagine the market for server-side translation modules!!!
-
dwd
Anyway, I'm +1 (in as much as I do not object)
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, currently, there is only OOB, right?
-
jonas’
so it would be at most two
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: there is SIMS
-
dwd
Ge0rG, I love your optimism that both clients would have any FT mechanisms in common at all.
-
Ge0rG
I'm on-list
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, not in any real-world use
-
daniel
and with the body fallback it's probably relatively safe to just drop oob at some point
-
dwd
daniel, I hate boyd fallback, but there we are...✎ -
dwd
daniel, I hate body fallback, but there we are... ✏
-
Zash
But we have the body fallback indicator! It's just lacking a fallback...
-
Zash
So we have [+4, on-list]. Next?
-
jonas’
4c) Proposed XMPP Extension: Encryption for stateless file sharing URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/esfs.html Abstract: This specification provides a protocol for sharing encrypted files using the stateless file sharing protocol (XEP-xxxx).
-
jonas’
+1, I sent feedback to the list
-
daniel
+1
-
Zash
+1
-
jonas’
(just now, so it’ll probably arrive tomorrow)
-
jonas’
(note that this directly depends on the previous one)
-
daniel
i'm not seeing that feedback
-
daniel
was this in reply to the proposed?
-
jonas’
daniel, as I said, I sent it just now, so it’ll take a while
-
jonas’
the list server hates me
-
jonas’
(peak delay for my mail was something like an hour or so.)
-
daniel
oh fair enough
-
jonas’
my feedback was mainly tha the cipher list should go in its own informational XEP like we have for hashes
-
dwd
Well, I think this has issues, but nothing insurmountable, so we'll publish first and fix afterward. I hope.
-
jonas’
dwd, is that a disguised +1?
-
larma
jonas’, agree, especially due to overlap with JET
-
jonas’
larma, excellent :)
-
Ge0rG
I like the Security Considerations.
-
jonas’
me too :D
-
jonas’
i chuckled when I reached that point
-
Ge0rG
+1
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, is that a vote?
-
dwd
jonas’, Yeah, +1. I was thinking mostly that it's unclear if every cipher suite will have or need a "key" and "IV" split like that. Most do, of course, but IIRC there are encrypted formats which essentially include the IV.
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: yes
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, you do realize that esfs depends strictly on sfs?
-
jonas’
and that you are on-list for sfs?
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: damn.
-
Ge0rG
I'm in a deadlock now
-
jonas’
think about that ;)
-
Ge0rG
if you can put <sources> inside of <encrypted> inside of <sources>, how many levels of encryption can you stack?
-
dwd
jonas’, As written, it does, but it could be "fixed" to be written around SIMS or something.
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, :D
-
Ge0rG
in that case I'm on-list.
-
jonas’
dwd, yes
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, thanks
-
jonas’
4d) Proposed XMPP Extension: Stickers URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/stickers.html Abstract: This specification provides a protocol to send stickers and to create and share sticker packs.
-
Ge0rG
it doesn't duplicate SIMS functionality, so I'm less strict on that one.
-
jonas’
the hash calculation looks very familiar
-
jonas’
someone stole from '390 ;)
-
Ge0rG
on-list; I need to think about the technical implications as well as copyright violation issues.
-
jonas’
larma, since you’re around: please consider how to re-do it around NUL instead of ASCII separators, since ASCII separators are valid XML 1.1 (as opposed to 1.0), while NUL is not valid in any XML version.
-
dwd
I may be too old to fully understand what a Sticker is.
-
jonas’
yeah this one is more complex, I’m on-list too
-
Ge0rG
dwd: something like a large custom emoji
-
dwd
I mean, I'm *all* about the Giphy. But I'm not sure I understand Stickers. I'm going to on-list this one.
-
dwd
Ge0rG, Yeah, but they come in packs? Like wolves?
-
jonas’
Zash, daniel, ?
-
daniel
+1
-
Zash
+1
-
daniel
although I wonder if stickers might be better of with SIMS rather than file sharing
-
Ge0rG
dwd: that would be like different emoji fonts, or somesuch
- daniel doesn’t know how sticker work
-
jonas’
alright
-
jonas’
5) Pending Votes
-
Ge0rG
I'm +1 on #1001
-
larma
jonas’, I'd rather enforce that name,desc and summary may not include ascii seperators instead of using null byte (because whatever is in those should be displayable to end-users anyway), but I see your point.
-
jonas’
except for those started today, we have pending votes: - everyone except Ge0rG (thanks) on #1001 - dwd on advancement of CS-2020
-
jonas’
larma, let’s do that in addition, but being resilient against it comes at little cost
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: CS-2021?
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, yes
-
dwd
What's the current voting on CS-2021
-
dwd
?
-
jonas’
dwd, everoyne +1, except you
-
Ge0rG
well, we *could* advance CS-2020 to Final, right?
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, no
-
jonas’
that needs a CFE which is at least 2w long
-
jonas’
so "we" cannot
-
dwd
Oh, I'll +0.
-
jonas’
thanks!
-
Zash
Maybe we could ask Board to add a special compliance suite thing in XEP-0001
-
jonas’
we’re already over our meeting time
-
daniel
also it needs to be 6 month old, no?
-
jonas’
please cast votes for #1001 on-list, please
-
jonas’
daniel, right, there was something about that ...
-
jonas’
6) Date of Next
-
jonas’
NOBODY KNOWS!!
-
jonas’
7) AOB
-
jonas’
anyone got any?
-
Ge0rG
CS-2020 is over a year old now!
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, OHH
-
jonas’
2020
-
jonas’
I always confuse those
-
jonas’
technically, it needs to have been in draft for 6m, but yes
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: I noticed ;)
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, that’s anyway next council’s problem
-
Ge0rG
> Update to Draft as per council vote on 2019/11/07.
-
Ge0rG
we could cast a CFE just now
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, I’m not sure how those work across council boundaries
-
Ge0rG
maybe it will yield useful input for CS-2021
-
jonas’
I know that LCs are implicitly restarted
-
jonas’
so we don’t win much
-
dwd
Ge0rG, "We" don't start CFEs anyway, that's purely an Editor action.
-
jonas’
that, too
-
Ge0rG
ignore everything I've said, it was just a sophisticated byrules troll attempt.
-
Ge0rG
*bylaws
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, ok, thanks for doing that while we’re already 4 minutes over.
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: I'm sorry.
-
dwd
Ge0rG, I think that's because whichever Council in Times Gone Past forgot that one.
-
jonas’
assuming no other AOB: Thank you all for this Council term. It was pleasure working with you. And special thanks (with cookies: 🍪) go to Tedd for consistently providing fun to read and comprehensive meeting minutes.
-
dwd
Ge0rG, Originally, I think neither Last Calls nor ProtoXEP Adoption/Publication were a Council thing, just Draft/Final advancements.
-
jonas’
8) Ite Meeting Est.
-
dwd
jonas’, Very much +1, and thanks for your excellent and concientious chairing.
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: thanks very much as well, it was great having you put structure into everything
-
jonas’
much of that was thanks to daves spreadsheet of doom
-
Zash
Thanks all. It's been a pleasure serving with you.
-
jonas’
oh and also the occasional email from Tedd with summaries of things which were forgotten about
-
jonas’
that person is incredibly valuable and we should find a way to send them covid-safe cookies or something.
-
dwd
Also, while obviously I hate to lose elections, at least if I lose this one I know I'll have been beaten by people who'll be good here.