XMPP Council - 2020-11-18


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  84. daniel Hi
  85. Zash Hey
  86. dwd Ho
  87. dwd (From new house)
  88. Zash jonas’, forgotten about the meeting or nah?
  89. Ge0rG good morning everyone!
  90. Zash Sun went down hours ago, it's night now.
  91. Ge0rG Zash: set your clock to UGT
  92. Zash Do we have a chair?
  93. Ge0rG well, given an excellently prepared agenda, somebody can step in
  94. dwd I have a chair, thankfully. Though no desk, yet.
  95. Ge0rG 1) Roll Call
  96. dwd Oh, jonas’ said he might forget.
  97. Ge0rG looks like we are missing jonas’
  98. Zash 4/5
  99. Ge0rG everybody else is here, great!
  100. Ge0rG 2) Agenda Bashing
  101. Ge0rG are there any things to add?
  102. Ge0rG 3) Editor’s Update
  103. Ge0rG Editor's been very busy, we have some things to vote on today.
  104. Ge0rG 4) Items for voting
  105. Ge0rG please note that our term is closing, and we need to submit all votes until November 24th.
  106. jonas’ hahaha
  107. Ge0rG Can we manage that?
  108. jonas’ yeah, it happened
  109. jonas’ I was pulling cookies out of the oven just now
  110. jonas’ here I am
  111. Ge0rG welcome, jonas’!
  112. jonas’ sorry for the delay, thanks for taking over, Ge0rG
  113. Ge0rG jonas’: do you want to have the chair hat back?
  114. dwd Ge0rG, Maybe it's a hat chair?
  115. jonas’ Ge0rG, works for me
  116. jonas’ let’s see what happens to our votes :)
  117. Ge0rG I was just going to ask if everbody silently agrees with submitting all pending votes until November 24th.
  118. jonas’ 4a) Proposed XMPP Extension: File metadata element URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/file-metadata.html Abstract: This specification defines a generic file metadata element to be used in other specifications.
  119. jonas’ Ge0rG, let’s just try and hope I don’t have to read bylaws or something
  120. dwd This one got some discussion on list already, and seems fine, so +1.
  121. jonas’ did it?
  122. Zash Oh?
  123. daniel +1
  124. dwd Ages ago, IIRC.
  125. jonas’ ah
  126. jonas’ I am +1, though I do have remarks I’ll suggest to the authors on-list
  127. Zash Got a reference to this previous discussion?
  128. dwd Or at least, it all looked familiar so I assumed I'd seen it before.
  129. Ge0rG this looks like it's copying the <file> element out of XEP-0234 for the sake of copying the <file> element out of XEP-0234. Am I missing something?
  130. Zash Yes
  131. Zash (so no)
  132. jonas’ Ge0rG, pretty much that
  133. jonas’ the idea is to have it separate for use in other specs and not bound to the '234 namespace, IIRC
  134. Zash +1
  135. Ge0rG what would be the way forward when we ever have to bump file-metadata? Will a client send two <file> elements with different namespaces?
  136. Ge0rG Well, given that 0234 is deferred, I think it's well worth a try, so +1
  137. Zash I'm not entirely convinced that another XEP fixes anything
  138. Ge0rG and it's missing clarification on which file elements are mandatory
  139. Zash Experimental doesn't need to be perfect
  140. daniel the idea isn’t to make it reslient against bumps but to better use it outside of jingle, no?
  141. Ge0rG Zash: me neither, but having smaller, reusable elements as their own XEPs looks like a good idea
  142. Zash I suppose
  143. dwd Ge0rG, "All child elements are OPTIONAL"
  144. dwd Ge0rG, Seems clear enough to me. :-)
  145. Ge0rG daniel: yes, but making it reusable will make it prone to bumping.
  146. jonas’ I agree
  147. jonas’ moving on
  148. Ge0rG dwd: indeed
  149. Zash I would appreciate a pointer to previous discussion
  150. jonas’ 4b) Proposed XMPP Extension: Stateless file sharing URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/sfs.html Abstract: This specification describes a protocol for stateless asynchronous file sharing with integrity and transport flexibility. It allows clients to provide a good interoperable user experience in combination with Carbons and MAM.
  151. daniel +1
  152. dwd Zash, Yeah, same. Might have been in the XSF@ chatroom, but I'm sure I've seen something like this from larma before.
  153. dwd So this one is SIMS but based aorund the file metadata, so eradicates SIMS, right?
  154. Zash Eaiser to make a new XEP than to re-author SIMS?
  155. jonas’ dwd, but based around the file-metadata and *not* around references
  156. Ge0rG wouldn't it be a much more sane approach to just let Marvin co-author SIMS and do all the fixes there?
  157. dwd Ge0rG, For this one in particular, I wondered about that approach myself.
  158. Zash +1. let them A/B fight for the throne of OOB
  159. jonas’ the key difference would be "No mixed content, body is used for fallback only and not to transmit additional information." + "Not relying on underspecified usage of References (XEP-0372) [3]."
  160. daniel has there been a clear consensus on that we want this kind of refactor from SIMS?
  161. daniel because SIMS might still be useful for other things
  162. jonas’ do we need consensus before accepting this as Experimental?
  163. Ge0rG jonas’: I like the first ones, and the last one is largely political
  164. jonas’ ah, from that perspective
  165. dwd daniel, Hard to say, see my notes on communications elsewhere.
  166. jonas’ Ge0rG, the first one and the last one are pretty much tied together
  167. jonas’ I’m also +1 on this one, same as Zash
  168. Ge0rG So we are going to end up with clients sending three different "file attached" elements for compat reasons?
  169. dwd Ge0rG, Each supporting 19 different FT mechanisms?
  170. Ge0rG dwd: each supporting the same 19 mechanisms as the other one(s).
  171. Zash ... but in practice it's all equivalent to <body>https://foo/bar.png</>
  172. Zash Ge0rG, imagine the market for server-side translation modules!!!
  173. dwd Anyway, I'm +1 (in as much as I do not object)
  174. jonas’ Ge0rG, currently, there is only OOB, right?
  175. jonas’ so it would be at most two
  176. Ge0rG jonas’: there is SIMS
  177. dwd Ge0rG, I love your optimism that both clients would have any FT mechanisms in common at all.
  178. Ge0rG I'm on-list
  179. jonas’ Ge0rG, not in any real-world use
  180. daniel and with the body fallback it's probably relatively safe to just drop oob at some point
  181. dwd daniel, I hate boyd fallback, but there we are...
  182. dwd daniel, I hate body fallback, but there we are...
  183. Zash But we have the body fallback indicator! It's just lacking a fallback...
  184. Zash So we have [+4, on-list]. Next?
  185. jonas’ 4c) Proposed XMPP Extension: Encryption for stateless file sharing URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/esfs.html Abstract: This specification provides a protocol for sharing encrypted files using the stateless file sharing protocol (XEP-xxxx).
  186. jonas’ +1, I sent feedback to the list
  187. daniel +1
  188. Zash +1
  189. jonas’ (just now, so it’ll probably arrive tomorrow)
  190. jonas’ (note that this directly depends on the previous one)
  191. daniel i'm not seeing that feedback
  192. daniel was this in reply to the proposed?
  193. jonas’ daniel, as I said, I sent it just now, so it’ll take a while
  194. jonas’ the list server hates me
  195. jonas’ (peak delay for my mail was something like an hour or so.)
  196. daniel oh fair enough
  197. jonas’ my feedback was mainly tha the cipher list should go in its own informational XEP like we have for hashes
  198. dwd Well, I think this has issues, but nothing insurmountable, so we'll publish first and fix afterward. I hope.
  199. jonas’ dwd, is that a disguised +1?
  200. larma jonas’, agree, especially due to overlap with JET
  201. jonas’ larma, excellent :)
  202. Ge0rG I like the Security Considerations.
  203. jonas’ me too :D
  204. jonas’ i chuckled when I reached that point
  205. Ge0rG +1
  206. jonas’ Ge0rG, is that a vote?
  207. dwd jonas’, Yeah, +1. I was thinking mostly that it's unclear if every cipher suite will have or need a "key" and "IV" split like that. Most do, of course, but IIRC there are encrypted formats which essentially include the IV.
  208. Ge0rG jonas’: yes
  209. jonas’ Ge0rG, you do realize that esfs depends strictly on sfs?
  210. jonas’ and that you are on-list for sfs?
  211. Ge0rG jonas’: damn.
  212. Ge0rG I'm in a deadlock now
  213. jonas’ think about that ;)
  214. Ge0rG if you can put <sources> inside of <encrypted> inside of <sources>, how many levels of encryption can you stack?
  215. dwd jonas’, As written, it does, but it could be "fixed" to be written around SIMS or something.
  216. jonas’ Ge0rG, :D
  217. Ge0rG in that case I'm on-list.
  218. jonas’ dwd, yes
  219. jonas’ Ge0rG, thanks
  220. jonas’ 4d) Proposed XMPP Extension: Stickers URL: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/stickers.html Abstract: This specification provides a protocol to send stickers and to create and share sticker packs.
  221. Ge0rG it doesn't duplicate SIMS functionality, so I'm less strict on that one.
  222. jonas’ the hash calculation looks very familiar
  223. jonas’ someone stole from '390 ;)
  224. Ge0rG on-list; I need to think about the technical implications as well as copyright violation issues.
  225. jonas’ larma, since you’re around: please consider how to re-do it around NUL instead of ASCII separators, since ASCII separators are valid XML 1.1 (as opposed to 1.0), while NUL is not valid in any XML version.
  226. dwd I may be too old to fully understand what a Sticker is.
  227. jonas’ yeah this one is more complex, I’m on-list too
  228. Ge0rG dwd: something like a large custom emoji
  229. dwd I mean, I'm *all* about the Giphy. But I'm not sure I understand Stickers. I'm going to on-list this one.
  230. dwd Ge0rG, Yeah, but they come in packs? Like wolves?
  231. jonas’ Zash, daniel, ?
  232. daniel +1
  233. Zash +1
  234. daniel although I wonder if stickers might be better of with SIMS rather than file sharing
  235. Ge0rG dwd: that would be like different emoji fonts, or somesuch
  236. daniel doesn’t know how sticker work
  237. jonas’ alright
  238. jonas’ 5) Pending Votes
  239. Ge0rG I'm +1 on #1001
  240. larma jonas’, I'd rather enforce that name,desc and summary may not include ascii seperators instead of using null byte (because whatever is in those should be displayable to end-users anyway), but I see your point.
  241. jonas’ except for those started today, we have pending votes: - everyone except Ge0rG (thanks) on #1001 - dwd on advancement of CS-2020
  242. jonas’ larma, let’s do that in addition, but being resilient against it comes at little cost
  243. Ge0rG jonas’: CS-2021?
  244. jonas’ Ge0rG, yes
  245. dwd What's the current voting on CS-2021
  246. dwd ?
  247. jonas’ dwd, everoyne +1, except you
  248. Ge0rG well, we *could* advance CS-2020 to Final, right?
  249. jonas’ Ge0rG, no
  250. jonas’ that needs a CFE which is at least 2w long
  251. jonas’ so "we" cannot
  252. dwd Oh, I'll +0.
  253. jonas’ thanks!
  254. Zash Maybe we could ask Board to add a special compliance suite thing in XEP-0001
  255. jonas’ we’re already over our meeting time
  256. daniel also it needs to be 6 month old, no?
  257. jonas’ please cast votes for #1001 on-list, please
  258. jonas’ daniel, right, there was something about that ...
  259. jonas’ 6) Date of Next
  260. jonas’ NOBODY KNOWS!!
  261. jonas’ 7) AOB
  262. jonas’ anyone got any?
  263. Ge0rG CS-2020 is over a year old now!
  264. jonas’ Ge0rG, OHH
  265. jonas’ 2020
  266. jonas’ I always confuse those
  267. jonas’ technically, it needs to have been in draft for 6m, but yes
  268. Ge0rG jonas’: I noticed ;)
  269. jonas’ Ge0rG, that’s anyway next council’s problem
  270. Ge0rG > Update to Draft as per council vote on 2019/11/07.
  271. Ge0rG we could cast a CFE just now
  272. jonas’ Ge0rG, I’m not sure how those work across council boundaries
  273. Ge0rG maybe it will yield useful input for CS-2021
  274. jonas’ I know that LCs are implicitly restarted
  275. jonas’ so we don’t win much
  276. dwd Ge0rG, "We" don't start CFEs anyway, that's purely an Editor action.
  277. jonas’ that, too
  278. Ge0rG ignore everything I've said, it was just a sophisticated byrules troll attempt.
  279. Ge0rG *bylaws
  280. jonas’ Ge0rG, ok, thanks for doing that while we’re already 4 minutes over.
  281. Ge0rG jonas’: I'm sorry.
  282. dwd Ge0rG, I think that's because whichever Council in Times Gone Past forgot that one.
  283. jonas’ assuming no other AOB: Thank you all for this Council term. It was pleasure working with you. And special thanks (with cookies: 🍪) go to Tedd for consistently providing fun to read and comprehensive meeting minutes.
  284. dwd Ge0rG, Originally, I think neither Last Calls nor ProtoXEP Adoption/Publication were a Council thing, just Draft/Final advancements.
  285. jonas’ 8) Ite Meeting Est.
  286. dwd jonas’, Very much +1, and thanks for your excellent and concientious chairing.
  287. Ge0rG jonas’: thanks very much as well, it was great having you put structure into everything
  288. jonas’ much of that was thanks to daves spreadsheet of doom
  289. Zash Thanks all. It's been a pleasure serving with you.
  290. jonas’ oh and also the occasional email from Tedd with summaries of things which were forgotten about
  291. jonas’ that person is incredibly valuable and we should find a way to send them covid-safe cookies or something.
  292. dwd Also, while obviously I hate to lose elections, at least if I lose this one I know I'll have been beaten by people who'll be good here.
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