XMPP Council - 2021-02-10

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  66. Ge0rG It looks like I'll be late and/or distracted
  67. jonas’ nted
  68. jonas’ noted
  69. dwd "I know this because there's a thread on a mailing list complaining about this." - catch-all for any subject (and more or less any mailing list, but certainly IETF Discuss)
  70. jonas’ 1) Roll Call
  71. daniel Hi
  72. Zash Here.
  73. jonas’ I am, too
  74. jonas’ I heard dwds textvoice just now and Ge0rG sent apologies, so I assume we can go on
  75. jonas’ 2) Agenda Bashing
  76. jonas’ anything?
  77. Zash silence
  78. jonas’ 3) Editor’s Update
  79. dwd (I am here, just finishing a call about an entertaining security issue we uncovered)
  80. jonas’ - New XEPs: - XEP-0455: Service Outage Status
  81. jonas’ dwd, that sounds very entertaining
  82. jonas’ 4) Items for voting None.
  83. jonas’ 5) Pending Votes
  84. jonas’ The data forms PR is lacking discussion / voting.
  85. jonas’ I apologize, the weekend was… interesting to say the least. I didn’t get around to start a thread. I might tonight or reply to the minutes.
  86. Zash SGTM
  87. jonas’ Does anyone want to cast votes on that or the Web Socket Endpoints protoxep in the meantime?
  88. dwd I hope interesting in a good sense, but i'm sensing that's wishful thinking.
  89. jonas’ it is indeed
  90. dwd Yeah, I'm going to veto the websockets endpoint one as noted on the mailing list.
  91. dwd And also on the assumption that a different proposal around this will emerge.
  92. daniel I’m glad dwd is doing the vetoing so i don’t have to
  93. dwd (So a veto without prejudice, as it were).
  94. daniel but i agree that a new xep is the better aproach
  95. jonas’ dwd, can you state your rationale here for the record please?
  96. dwd daniel, You still should, in case I withdraw or you have other interesting reasons to veto.
  97. dwd jonas’, I stated them on list for the record, but loosely it implies a server default of listening on unencrypted sessions, and devalues XEP-0156.
  98. dwd jonas’, I am expecting something closer to a "suggested defaults" with both test and production recommendations.
  99. jonas’ dwd, yep, I assumed it was on-list, but me (or Tedd) digging into the thread to find it is suboptimal :)
  100. jonas’ sounds good to me
  101. jonas’ there is this proposal: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1035/files
  102. aosan has left
  103. daniel -1: Having a XEP that defines recommendation for default ports and paths is interesting but the proto xep goes well beyond that and tries to influence client behaviour which might lead to the degradation of doing things properly ake 156
  104. daniel essentially everything we discussed last week
  105. jonas’ -1: Let’s not repeat the mistake of the A/AAAA fallback here when there’s no evidence that it’s needed for practical interoperability concerns.
  106. daniel plus a agree with dwd in that haevily editing the current proto xep over starting fresh is not the best path
  107. Kev (FWIW, I’m not convinced the A/AAAA fallback was a mistake at the time)
  108. daniel especially once it's out there it's out there. and any edits might take time
  109. dwd I can see defaults are really interesting from an ease-of-test and ease-of-deplyment case, and recommendations for production deployment are great too. But that seems a rather fundamentally different XEP than the one we have now.
  110. jonas’ .well-known requires some IANA interaction, right?
  111. Zash Sorry, I'm inexplicably tired all day and having trouble following. What are we voting on?
  112. Kev dwd: Why are recommendations for a production deployment great? If a client is doing lookups, isn’t it entirely deployment’s choice, and so one recommendation can’t be better than another?
  113. daniel which doesn’t have to be a bad thing, re iana
  114. dwd Zash, Websocket ProtoXEP missing votes.
  115. jonas’ Zash, we’re currently discussing the websockets protoxep
  116. dwd Kev, For example, suggesting that websockets run on port 443 over TLS is useful advice.
  117. dwd Kev, And materially better than port 5280 without TLS.
  118. jonas’ (that would be Informational, and not Standards Track, though)
  119. dwd jonas’, Indeed.
  120. Zash Informational thing that suggests defaults sounds fine
  121. jonas’ agreed
  122. daniel +1
  123. Kev dwd: TLS is absolutely good advice. I’m not sure if 443 is, but I can at least see an argument for it. Any other port would be a bad thing to recommend though, I think.
  124. jonas’ is anyone from the present people interested in taking on the work to do it?
  125. dwd Oh, gosh, no. I was assuming either of flow or Sonny would take that on.
  126. Kev But yes, a XEP saying “Look, always do TLS. And 443 might be a good choice” seems much less likely to be harmful than some other things might be.
  127. Zash Aren't there RFCs saying that (always TLS!!!) already?
  128. jonas’ sonny looked interested in moving this towards a default recommendation
  129. Zash So. I can vote -1, fallbacks bad, tls good, what everyone else said, try again to the previous proposal.
  130. jonas’ then we’ve got all votes collected
  131. jonas’ I assume we’re going to discuss the data forms thing on-list then?
  132. daniel i don’t see how this would not require a namespace bump
  133. Zash Bumping dataforms? Oh glob
  134. dwd The data forms thing? Seemed OK to me, mind.
  135. jonas’ yes, and kill <reported/> while we’re at it
  136. jonas’ win-win :D
  137. daniel i mean we've been pretty liberal with the word clarifying in the past…
  138. jonas’ to the point that I’d like to ban that word from xeps PRs
  139. Zash Haha
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  141. dwd Well, either people *do* care about the order or they don't. A way to "fix" the issue would be to say SHOULD send in order, MUST accept in any order.
  142. jonas’ I could live with that
  143. daniel +1
  144. dwd But yeah, this needs a list discussion.
  145. jonas’ ok, let’s move it there then
  146. jonas’ 6) Date of Next
  147. jonas’ +1w wfm
  148. daniel but if you must accept it in any order why send it in one?
  149. daniel +1w wfm
  150. Zash +1w wfm
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  152. jonas’ dwd still checking his schedule I presume?
  153. jonas’ … anyway, three’s a quorum
  154. jonas’ 7) AOB
  155. jonas’ has anyone got any?
  156. jonas’ talking to his echo
  157. jonas’ assuming none
  158. Zash I've got nothing.
  159. jonas’ 8) Ite Meeting Est
  160. jonas’ Thanks Tedd for the Minutes :)
  161. jonas’ (they arrived just now and I’ll reply re data forms)
  162. daniel thanks all
  163. Zash Thanks Tedd, jonas’, all.
  164. jonas’ FTR, replied to the minutes thread re data forms
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