XMPP Council - 2021-09-01

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  75. jonas’ 1) Roll Call
  76. Zash But, pancakes?
  77. jonas’ sorry, no pancakes
  78. jonas’ I just have waffles
  79. Zash is here, without pancakes
  80. jonas’ and the waffles are for breakfast
  81. jonas’ so I'm also here without either pancakes or waffles
  82. jonas’ do we get a dwd maybe?
  83. jonas’ and/or a Ge0rG?
  84. Zash At least I have coffee, unlike yesterday and this morning.
  85. jonas’ that's a start I suppose
  86. jonas’ I had tea, which was also nice
  87. Ge0rG Is it this time of the week again?
  88. jonas’ Ge0rG, it is )
  89. jonas’ Ge0rG, it is :)
  90. Ge0rG I had more than sufficient amount of coffee today.
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  93. Ge0rG Well, still not enough to compensate for the lack of sleep.
  94. jonas’ Ge0rG, your typing is surprisingly coherent for that
  95. jonas’ ah
  96. Zash (3 or 4)/5
  97. jonas’ well, let's get started
  98. jonas’ 2) Agenda Bashing
  99. jonas’ it was a surprisingly on-time agenda
  100. Ge0rG I like this kind of agendas.
  101. jonas’ 3) Editor's Update
  102. Ge0rG Not only on time, but also without additional workloads.
  103. jonas’ Draft is the new Stable
  104. jonas’ 4) Items for voting None.
  105. jonas’ 5) Pending Votes - Dave on PR#1096 (XEP-0060: remove exception for last item when purging a node)
  106. Ge0rG Stable is the new Draft?
  107. dwd Hiya, sorry I'm late.
  108. jonas’ Ge0rG, right
  109. jonas’ dwd, you're right on time to cast your vote :)
  110. dwd +1
  111. Ge0rG And there was sufficiently little discussion of which color the stable should have.
  112. jonas’ dwd, thanks!
  113. jonas’ 6) Date of Next
  114. Ge0rG +1W WFM
  115. jonas’ I might not make +1w
  116. Zash +7d wfm
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  118. jonas’ as it is the anniversary of my nickname change, and that needs to be celebrated accordingly
  119. jonas’ so it'd be good if someone could chair in my stead
  120. jonas’ I'll prepare an agenda though
  121. jonas’ any volunteers?
  122. Ge0rG
  123. jonas’ perfect, you got the job
  124. jonas’ dwd, +1w wfy?
  125. dwd Yes.
  126. jonas’ perfect
  127. jonas’ 7) AOB
  128. jonas’ anyone got any?
  129. Ge0rG Yeah.
  130. jonas’ Ge0rG, go ahead :)
  131. Ge0rG Two, actually.
  132. jonas’ you can have two, even
  133. jonas’ probably
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  136. Ge0rG 7a) Membership Reapplication: it's affecting two Council members. We should ensure that nobody is losing membership and puts Council into limbo
  137. jonas’ good point
  138. Sam Ge0rG: council people don't need to be members, iirc
  139. jonas’ the two affected being you and Zash if I see it correctly
  140. jonas’ Sam, you're confusing that with Board
  141. jonas’ Council needs membership
  142. Ge0rG 7b) Board and Council elections. Autumn has started. That means that some time soon there will be an election of the next Council.
  143. Ge0rG We should conclude all LCs prior to that.
  144. Zash Time to review our yearly goals?
  145. Ge0rG I'm _especially_ looking into the direction of CS-2021
  146. Ge0rG I'm _especially_ looking into the direction of CS-2022
  147. jonas’ Sam, bylaws: > All the individuals elected to participate on the XMPP Council must be Members of the Corporation.
  148. Sam oh wait, or is that board? yah, that still makes no sense and I mix it up every time. nevermind then.
  149. jonas’ Ge0rG, do you have any contact with the CS-2022 author?
  150. Ge0rG But I'm also looking into the general direction of XEP-0280, which got some LC feedback that still needs to be incorporated by its new owner, who is very much ashamed of the delay.
  151. Zash You could probably read it as needing to be a member at the time of election...
  152. Ge0rG jonas’: no
  153. jonas’ there are two options: either we have no open LCs or find-lcs.sh is broken.
  154. jonas’ ag also doesn't find anything
  155. jonas’ I think we actually don't have any open LCs.
  156. jonas’ Zash, next sentence goes on with "If a Council member resigns his or her membership in the Corporation, is removed from membership in the Corporation, or is terminated from membership in the Corporation, he or she shall thereby relinquish all rights and responsibilities as a member of the Council."
  157. jonas’ Ge0rG, mmmkay
  158. Ge0rG jonas’: I was looking into the direction of: - LCs that we performed that need an update of the document - LCs that we should perform before the New Council is elected
  159. Sam That makes sense I guess
  160. jonas’ Ge0rG, understood
  161. jonas’ soo... do you have any specific LCs in mind which we should start in this term, except CS-2022?
  162. Ge0rG maybe we can find a volunteer to look into what Council has achieved in this year and what should still be followed upon
  163. jonas’ those which are pending on incorporation of feedback seem outside our control, right?
  164. Ge0rG jonas’: 0280
  165. jonas’ that's one of those, isn't it?
  166. Ge0rG jonas’: well, it might be a good idea to ping the responsible persons
  167. jonas’ like... you?
  168. Ge0rG I'm trying to generalize here.
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  171. jonas’ MAM (313) is another one
  172. jonas’ but I think it suffers from the same issue as 280
  173. Ge0rG For 0280 I'm very sure that some public pressure can resolve the situation.
  174. jonas’ so the only things we LC'd and did not advance this term are '280 and '313
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  176. Ge0rG And I think that we provided some useful feedback for both, making it possible to advance them with just minor updates?
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  178. jonas’ Ge0rG, WheRE Is ThE F*CkInG UpDAtE, LeBowSKi?!
  179. Ge0rG So it would make sense to complete the process in this term?
  180. jonas’ Ge0rG, I don't think "factor out all the rules in a separate document" is a minor update?
  181. Ge0rG jonas’: using a text editor that's capable of copy&paste, why not?
  182. jonas’ I think your '313 feedback was more than two pages long
  183. jonas’ it doesn't feel like minor update
  184. Ge0rG Damn,
  185. jonas’ if you think there is a minor update possibe, it would be best if *you* did that
  186. jonas’ or at least proposed wording
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  189. jonas’ as you seem to have the tightest grasp of the *problems*, at least
  190. Ge0rG jonas’: I didn't manage to complete the minor update of my own XEP yet.
  191. jonas’ I wonder if it's possible to tackle both at the same time?
  192. Ge0rG It's been long enough that I need to read up my own comments on-list anyway.
  193. jonas’ alternatively, we could agree that the rules as is work good enough and additional improvements should focus on fleshing out IM-NG.
  194. jonas’ alternatively, we could agree that the rules as is work well enough and additional improvements should focus on fleshing out IM-NG.
  195. dwd It seems to me that our inability to get '280 and '313 over the line is just silly, at this point.
  196. jonas’ dwd, agreed
  197. dwd I mean, virtually everyone uses them just fine, whether or not the rules are perfect.
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  200. jonas’ I mean at the same time it points at the fundamental issue that message routing is hard
  201. jonas’ especially in a system which has grown historically over 20 years
  202. dwd Sure.
  203. Zash So, declare the rules to be out of scope, move on with life?
  204. jonas’ which is why I think that we should keep the things as is as Stable and head toward IM-NG
  205. Zash And figure out routing (including copying and archiving) rules elsewhere
  206. dwd I think IM-NG will be a useful sponge to soak up this energy, but yes.
  207. jonas’ as Editor, I.m re
  208. jonas’ as Editor, I'm reluctant to issue another LC for either '280 or '313 because it means a lot of process for little gain.
  209. jonas’ so I'd like to hear *at least* from council that another LC iteration would likely pass the vote, barring any substantial new blocking list feedback
  210. Zash YOLO just make them Draf^W Stable already!!11 /half-serious
  211. Zash They definitely have enough deployment to warrant it
  212. jonas’ for sure
  213. Ge0rG I think I split my feedback on '313 into what would make vote -1 and what would not
  214. dwd Zash, I am entirely serious. If there's no energy to change them and plenty of deployment, that suggests Stable to me.
  215. jonas’ and even if we were to change them, we would do so so carefully as if they were Stable, even though they have the Experimental label on them
  216. dwd Well, quite. They're de-facto Stable.
  217. jonas’ Ge0rG, soo... actually
  218. dwd I mean, I argued this something like 3 years ago.
  219. jonas’ Ge0rG, either your -1 feedback can be fixed in Stable, or it can not be fixed in Stable because it is too breaking, in which case it is unlikely to see any deployment anyway.
  220. jonas’ Ge0rG, please meditate over this until next week, I might put "advance '313" on the agenda.
  221. jonas’ (as it hasn't seen any changes since the last LC, I think we can just do that)
  222. MattJ 🎉
  223. dwd jonas’, On related "we should advance this", '368 to Final?
  224. jonas’ dwd, could
  225. dwd jonas’, Though that's a purely Editor concern to begin with.
  226. jonas’ yeah, but the editor needs ideas :)
  227. jonas’ I'll send it to the editor team to consider
  228. Zash Anything referenced by the CS should probably be Stable
  229. dwd jonas’, Well, when you see him...
  230. dwd Zash, +1
  231. jonas’ alright, your AOB cleared to your satisfaction, Ge0rG?
  232. Ge0rG Zash: anything *required* by the CS. But I think not even that is true.
  233. Ge0rG jonas’: to a point where no further discussion is useful, at least
  234. jonas’ well, fair enough
  235. jonas’ any other AOB?
  236. Zash CS dependency requirements would be a different topic... for another time perhaps.
  237. jonas’ yes, I suppose
  238. jonas’ alright then
  239. jonas’ 8) Ite Meeting Est
  240. jonas’ thanks everyone
  241. dwd Thanks, jonas’
  242. Zash thanks jonas’
  243. Zash pancakes now?
  244. Zash Go now, and rest^W make pancakes. You've earned it!
  245. Ge0rG Thanks jonas’
  246. jonas’ dinner's going to be paste with a cheese sauce, so that's good enough
  247. Ge0rG Cheese Pasta?
  248. jonas’ yes
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  251. Ge0rG I hope this doesn't lead into #pastagate
  252. jonas’ why should it?
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